Bucco and baseball fans - thoughts on McCutchen batting 2nd?

[john4psu]

The Pirates have been hitting Andrew McCutchen second in the lineup the past week and it looks like something that will occur during the regular season. The thinking is McCutchen will get 30 extra at-bats batting second than third and over 150 times last season (roughly 24% IIRC) McCutchen came to the plate with two outs and nobody on base.

I trust the sabremetrics guys on this but if your #1 and #2 hitters get on base more then is the need to move Cutch to the two hole in the batting order necessary? Jaso looks like he will lead off a lot, he of the .380 on-base percentage last year, and should get on base more than a free swinging leadoff hitter.

I realize that if you have a speedy runner like Jay Hay or Polanco on base and Cutch is at the plate, they may be less inclined to steal for if they're successful, the pitcher can pitch around Cutch with first base open and take the bat out of Cutch's hands.

If you do bat Cutch second, doesn't it also make sense to bat the pitcher eighth to give Cutch a better chance to come up with potentially more Pirates on base?

Oh how the game has changed from the days when Omar Moreno got on first, Tim Foli would bunt him over to second if Moreno didn't steal second on his own and set the table for The Cobra and Pops and the Bucs would get out in front 1-0 and go from there.

Thoughts?

 

[StinkStankStunk]

The Pirates have been hitting Andrew McCutchen second in the lineup the past week and it looks like something that will occur during the regular season. The thinking is McCutchen will get 30 extra at-bats batting second than third and over 150 times last season (roughly 24% IIRC) McCutchen came to the plate with two outs and nobody on base.

I trust the sabremetrics guys on this but if your #1 and #2 hitters get on base more then is the need to move Cutch to the two hole in the batting order necessary? Jaso looks like he will lead off a lot, he of the .380 on-base percentage last year, and should get on base more than a free swinging leadoff hitter.

I realize that if you have a speedy runner like Jay Hay or Polanco on base and Cutch is at the plate, they may be less inclined to steal for if they're successful, the pitcher can pitch around Cutch with first base open and take the bat out of Cutch's hands.

If you do bat Cutch second, doesn't it also make sense to bat the pitcher eighth to give Cutch a better chance to come up with potentially more Pirates on base?

Oh how the game has changed from the days when Omar Moreno got on first, Tim Foli would bunt him over to second if Moreno didn't steal second on his own and set the table for The Cobra and Pops and the Bucs would get out in front 1-0 and go from there.

Thoughts?

A lot of things to consider - and it all plays in to exactly who you available as the other options in the line up

But one thing to clear up, the number of extra at bats in moving from the 3 to the 2 spot would be about 15 (not 30), so that's not a real big consideration

I would be more inclined to move Cutch to the 2 spot.......if it were not for the fact that he simply doesn't run anymore - and Hurdle doesn't appear to be inclined to send him in even the most beneficial situations
I would also be more inclined to move him up if the Buccos had a couple of legit power hitters that they could put in the 3/4/5 slots......which they don't have

Bottom line - IMO - #22 could do a good job at 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5........and you could make an argument for any of them
It may be that the Buccos need to figure out where the OTHER guys can help out the most, and build off of that

 

[GulfCoastLion]

A lot of things to consider - and it all plays in to exactly who you available as the other options in the line up

But one thing to clear up, the number of extra at bats in moving from the 3 to the 2 spot would be about 15 (not 30), so that's not a real big consideration

I would be more inclined to move Cutch to the 2 spot.......if it were not for the fact that he simply doesn't run anymore - and Hurdle doesn't appear to be inclined to send him in even the most beneficial situations
I would also be more inclined to move him up if the Buccos had a couple of legit power hitters that they could put in the 3/4/5 slots......which they don't have

Bottom line - IMO - #22 could do a good job at 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5........and you could make an argument for any of them
It may be that the Buccos need to figure out where the OTHER guys can help out the most, and build off of that

Along the same lines as mentioned, without a legit cleanup hitter I don't think it really matters that much. If Pedro Alvarez had developed into the consistent power hitting/cleanup guy that the Pirates envisioned (I also realize his fielding is what ultimately doomed him), then leaving Cutch to hit 3rd in the order would make sense. As it was, Cutch was pitched around all the time last year with no consistent RBI/Hitter behind him.

Not sure how hitting 2nd, or 3rd will really play out, but it likely won't matter that much IMO. EDIT: My guess is that Starling Marte would then hit 3rd in the lineup, if Cutch hits 2nd. So assuming Cutch gets on base, then this may be fine for Marte. If Cutch, or Jaso (leadoff ?) don't get on base, then Marte will likely be pitched around as much as McCutcheon last year. This lineup needs Kang back in the lineup at 100% to be productive, yet still not as much overall power as you'd like. Lack of production from 1st base position continues to be an issue. Would love to see Polanco really develop into a big power hitter, then he could really help the entire lineup.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

A lot of things to consider - and it all plays in to exactly who you available as the other options in the line up

But one thing to clear up, the number of extra at bats in moving from the 3 to the 2 spot would be about 15 (not 30), so that's not a real big consideration

I would be more inclined to move Cutch to the 2 spot.......if it were not for the fact that he simply doesn't run anymore - and Hurdle doesn't appear to be inclined to send him in even the most beneficial situations
I would also be more inclined to move him up if the Buccos had a couple of legit power hitters that they could put in the 3/4/5 slots......which they don't have

Bottom line - IMO - #22 could do a good job at 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5........and you could make an argument for any of them
It may be that the Buccos need to figure out where the OTHER guys can help out the most, and build off of that

You can make an argument for 5th?

 

[lionlurker]

Apparently all of the advanced stats say that your best hitter should bat second. Conventional wisdom always was that your best guy batted third.

Nothing to lose, eh? He needs to come up with men on base.

 

[StinkStankStunk]

You can make an argument for 5th?

Sure. Depending on what else you have in the lineup - you could make an argument for 6, 7 or 8 as well. Point being, he could add value just about anywhere - and if the "others" fit in better in certain spots, you could accommodate him almost anywhere

 

[ClarkstonMark]

You can't bat Cutch 5-8. Lol

 

[nits74]

The Pirates have been hitting Andrew McCutchen second in the lineup the past week and it looks like something that will occur during the regular season. The thinking is McCutchen will get 30 extra at-bats batting second than third and over 150 times last season (roughly 24% IIRC) McCutchen came to the plate with two outs and nobody on base.

I trust the sabremetrics guys on this but if your #1 and #2 hitters get on base more then is the need to move Cutch to the two hole in the batting order necessary? Jaso looks like he will lead off a lot, he of the .380 on-base percentage last year, and should get on base more than a free swinging leadoff hitter.

I realize that if you have a speedy runner like Jay Hay or Polanco on base and Cutch is at the plate, they may be less inclined to steal for if they're successful, the pitcher can pitch around Cutch with first base open and take the bat out of Cutch's hands.

If you do bat Cutch second, doesn't it also make sense to bat the pitcher eighth to give Cutch a better chance to come up with potentially more Pirates on base?

Oh how the game has changed from the days when Omar Moreno got on first, Tim Foli would bunt him over to second if Moreno didn't steal second on his own and set the table for The Cobra and Pops and the Bucs would get out in front 1-0 and go from there.

Thoughts?

I understand the sabremetrics thinking, but sometimes you can get too cute with things. And, it doesn't take into account some of the intangibles. I'm a little skeptical of this one. Personnally, I'd like to see Polanco bat second. At this point in his career he needs to see better pitches, which he would with Cutch behind him.

 

[john4psu]

I'm guessing they're thinking:

Jaso
Cutch
Marte
Kang

Not sure how Polanco, Harrison, Cerevelli bat after that.

 

[PennStateNate]

I'm guessing they're thinking:

Jaso
Cutch
Marte
Kang

Not sure how Polanco, Harrison, Cerevelli bat after that.

That got to be one of the worst first 4 hitters in baseball in terms of power.. LOL

 

[GulfCoastLion]

That got to be one of the worst first 4 hitters in baseball in terms of power.. LOL

While no true clean up hitter in that group, McCutcheon, Marte and Kang all have good power, even emerging power with Marte and Kang. All 3 are capable of hitting 20+ HR's and likely more if healthy. Not a powerless top end of the lineup by a long shot. The Pirates don't have a true clean up hitter for sure, however Palonco has the size, compact swing and potential to be a 30+ HR kind of guy if he continues to mature as a hitter.

 

[wbcincy]

That got to be one of the worst first 4 hitters in baseball in terms of power.. LOL

Well, that's not really true. Last year, McCutchen was 12th in the NL in slugging percentage, Marte was 25th, and if Kang and Jaso had qualified w/ enough at bats, they would've been 19th and 20th, respectively. Granted, there's not that one top 5 power guy in there, but it's really good pop from all four.

 

[bison13]

I like the idea but it will only work if Polanco improves and Kang is healthy. My question is this, if Cutch is 2, where does Harrison bat? I would think he would be the #2 hole guy, now you would have to bat him 7.

 

[BBG65]

They are using the stat that he #3 hitter comes up too often with no one on and 2 outs. I think the 2 out criteria skews the result. I'd rather they just went by number of ABs with runners on base. The #2 hitter has the 8 and 9 spots along with the leadoff hitter preceding him and those guys have low OBPs. Statistics have to be smartly chosen.

 

[dbsteel]

I don't like it. My Sabermetric brain thinks there is a better chance for him to get up with men on base hitting 3rd than 2nd, and the pitcher isn't hitting 2 spots ahead of him. I'd rather see a speed guy up there. I know Mike Trout does it, but with his 41 HRs, he only had like 91 RBIs. Overthinking if you ask me.

 

[Still in State College]

As to having the pitcher hit eighth, I have never bought into that idea either. So you flip the pitcher and probably Mercer and it doesn't really changer the dynamic of the line-up. I believe that mathematically it makes little to no difference if the pitcher hits 8th or 9th.

As an aside I am not sold on Jaso as lead-off or as the primary first basement (right handed pitching)