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CNN Headline on Paterno

Thanks for responding to my post. Our basic point of disagreement is that you see Joe as a victim. I do not.

Joe Paterno is not a victim here. The only victims are Sandusky's victims.

The matter is simply one of an incorrect, oversimplified and dramatic narrative that was created to explain the situation. PSU did not knowingly cover up for a serial pedophile to protect football, or any of that idolization BS.

Making a mistake by not reporting is far different from knowingly "concealing" crime(s).
 
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Did they ask if going to police or calling childline is a good move or nah?

My answer is meaningless because I could be lying or telling the truth. It is a message board. If you care as much as it sounds, make some calls. See what those in the front lines would say about his situation in 2001.
 
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Thanks for responding to my post. Our basic point of disagreement is that you see Joe as a victim. I do not.

Nor do I see him as the cartoonish villain depicted in so much of the national media.

The reality, as I tried to say, is more complicated and, in a way, scarier: a good man faces a Moment of Truth, a brutal ugliness that repels the normal human mind, and his response falls short.

I say "scary" because for all the brave talk on the part of so many about what they would have done in Joe's place, nobody can know such a thing. They may know what they think they would do, what they hope they would do -- but that's it.

Joe's failure, which he himself, in so many words, acknowledged during the last weeks of his life, was not due to him being a bad man -- but rather just a man, subject to human pressures and weaknesses.

One final point, and I say this as a lifelong Catholic: there are some uncanny parallels between what happened in numerous dioceses around the country and the events at Penn State. The bureaucratic impulse is to cover up and thereby protect the leadership, protect the brand, protect the institution. The result is catastrophe.

Listen, it's not my aim here to win an argument. Nor do I have any intention of engaging in pissing contests. You have your view of things. I have tried, respectfully, to present mine.
Thanks for responding to my post. Our basic point of disagreement is that you see Joe as a victim. I do not.

Nor do I see him as the cartoonish villain depicted in so much of the national media.

The reality, as I tried to say, is more complicated and, in a way, scarier: a good man faces a Moment of Truth, a brutal ugliness that repels the normal human mind, and his response falls short.

I say "scary" because for all the brave talk on the part of so many about what they would have done in Joe's place, nobody can know such a thing. They may know what they think they would do, what they hope they would do -- but that's it.

Joe's failure, which he himself, in so many words, acknowledged during the last weeks of his life, was not due to him being a bad man -- but rather just a man, subject to human pressures and weaknesses.

One final point, and I say this as a lifelong Catholic: there are some uncanny parallels between what happened in numerous dioceses around the country and the events at Penn State. The bureaucratic impulse is to cover up and thereby protect the leadership, protect the brand, protect the institution. The result is catastrophe.

Listen, it's not my aim here to win an argument. Nor do I have any intention of engaging in pissing contests. You have your view of things. I have tried, respectfully, to present mine.
I never called Joe a victim. My issue with your original post isn't your opinion on Joe. It's your suggestion that others "move on" from it now that we're winning some football games. I find that hugely offensive considering that people's lives, reputations and livelihoods were damaged or destroyed by this.
 
Joe's failure, which he himself, in so many words, acknowledged during the last weeks of his life, was not due to him being a bad man -- but rather just a man, subject to human pressures and weaknesses.

No he did not. He said "with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." That doesn't mean what you think it means.

One final point, and I say this as a lifelong Catholic: there are some uncanny parallels between what happened in numerous dioceses around the country and the events at Penn State. The bureaucratic impulse is to cover up and thereby protect the leadership, protect the brand, protect the institution. The result is catastrophe.

There was no cover up at PSU, and thus there can't be uncanny parallels.
  • There is no good reason to cover up the crimes of an ex-employee that nobody liked to "protect the brand". Had they known and turned him in, it's good publicity for a clean program!
  • The AG praised Paterno for his handling of the situation.
  • PSU reported the incident outside the university to Sandusky's employer.
  • No one has ever testified that they were told to not talk about the incident.
  • The lead Sandusky prosecutor said on National TV there was no evidence of a cover up.
  • FBI investigator Snedden does not think there was a cover up.
  • The courts even say there was no cover up, as C/S/S were not convicted of it.
  • Only Louis Freeh, with his shattered reputation, and debunked Freeh report, which he admits is just his opinion, came to that conclusion years ago. It's time to let the Freeh report go.
 
Sorry, I was referencing reporting it to the police. Yes, JVP reported it to his superiors.

As I stated earlier, the system failed. Joe performed his part within the system correctly. Within the work structure, McQueary performed his part within the system correctly (I would state that he failed his responsibility as a citizen if what he claimed ten years later is true). Systemically, it would seem that it broke down at the Curley/Schultz level.
 
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One of the major reasons systems fail is because they are managed by humans who are imperfect. Joe should require zero defense by anyone because 1) he was never charged with anything! and 2) his actions over the course of 85 years speak far more loudly than a few words that people are now viewing under a microscope.

The greater lesson in all this is that people don't "see" predators ("see" Larry Nassar) and to criticize someone for being human (see Joe, Gary, Tim, countless numbers of coaches, players, assistants, family members, a spouse, yada, yada, yada) is absurd. We are all one interaction away from not "seeing" something that is right in front of us. GMJ11 is as guilty as everyone he's holding responsible (we all are).

How about Joe IN FACT and REALITY not even coming remotely close to breaking any PA Law in regards to the incident and quite to the contrary, followed PSU's HR Protocols, Policies and Procedures precisely as they existed at the time in regards to the AFTER THE FACT, extremely obtuse, "hearsay" report of "suspicious activity in the workplace by an AUTHORIZED party" that he received from a very junior subordinate who was in the workplace via an after-hours trip there on a Friday evening?

If the OAG's "33rd Statewide Investigating Grand Jury Presentment - Statement of Fact" is to be taken as gospel (which it is NOT under the PA Justice System, the PA Constitution or the US Constitution as there is no DUE PROCESS included in these "factual findings" by the OAG - i.e., the State Prosecutor), but again lets take the OAG's "case" as gospel with ZERO Due Process (IOW, according to $hit-for-brains, nobody is entitled to a fair trial as prescribed by this Nation's FOUNDING DOCUMENTS!), the parties CLEARLY guilty of crimes outside of Sandusky are:
  • Mike McQueary, John McQueary and Dr. Dranov who clearly violated PA Law, Felony Obstruction Of Justice, in not reporting Mike McQueary "seeing a 10 year old being subjected to anal rape" WHILE THE INCIDENT WAS IN PROGRESS and "first responders" could have been sent to the child's aid, Sandusky could have been apprehended, the "crime scene" could have been preserved and evidence could have been collected.
  • Multiple "Mandatory Reporters" at Central Mountain High School who not only violated FTR provisions of the PA CPS Law, but repeatedly gave Sandusky isolated-custody of victims on, and off, the schools campus without parental permission IN VIOLATION of "State-Actor" Public School Policies and Procedures!
  • Multiple "Mandatory Reporters" at The Second Mile as well as the even more serious multiple "State Agents" via State-Contracts directly with DPW/CYS at The Second Mile
  • Multiple "State Employees / Direct State-Agents" at DPW (now HHS) and their County-Level CYS Offices who granted Sandusky exclusive custody to children for almost 5 Decades via State Adoption, State Foster-Parenting Program (up to and including "partial permanent custody"), State-Contracted Group Homes for Wayward Children and via Sandusky's own personal charity where they REPEATEDLY failed to abide by the provisions of PA CPS Law and write PA Law Mandated "Safety Plans" when investigating Sandusky in 1998, 2001 or 2008 (again, the governing PA Law, the PA Child Protective Services Act, MANDATED an investigation of Sandusky in 2001 via the REPORT to State-Agent Jack Raykovitz and TSM by PSU -- not only did CPSL mandate investigation of this "Report" under the code, but PA Law clearly holds DPW Responsible for the FAILURES of its SELECTED AGENT!).
  • The OAG of PA who FAILED to investigate The Second Mile despite receiving a "Formal Indicated Report of Child Sexual Abuse" which identified TSM as a potentially FRAUDULENT CHARITY and its founder, and still most-powerful, regulatory-listed "Control Person", Jerry Sandusky, as a Criminal Serial Pedophile and immediate threat to children ON March 3, 2009!.....AND despite all NPOs (including "charities") falling under the auspice of the AG in Pennsylvania and only existing at the AG's pleasure, AG Corrupt Corbutt NEVER lifted finger one to investigate The Second Mile and allowed them to CONTINUE to FUND RAISE to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars from the Pennsylvania General Public for more than 3 years following DPW's Notification to AG Corbutt on 3/3/2009 that TSM was likely a FRAUDULENT CHARITY, founded by - and harbouring - a Serial Pedophile who was AT THE TIME, the MOST-POWERFUL, REGULATORY-LISTED "CONTROL PERSON" at TSM!!!
Note, even if we take the OAG's Presentment as written gospel of the facts - WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE WAY PA LAW OR THE CRIMINAL COURTS WORK - but even if we OBVIATE the entire US Constitution and run the PA Law Enforcement System the way they are run in State Dictatorship Kangaroo Courts, the ONLY parties who are not on the list are PSU Employees, let alone Joe Paterno, as they BROKE NO PA LAW relative to REPORTING of this incident unlike all of the parties above, especially Mike McQueary, John McQueary and Dr. Dranov who broke INSANELY SERIOUS Pennsylvania Laws under the "OoJ Codes" relative to "Aiding & Abetting" via "Accessory After the Fact" by KNOWINGLY & INTENTIONALLY not calling authorities while a 10 year old child was "BEING SUBJECTED TO ANAL RAPE" according to the OAG's own Presentment!!!!

The notion that the OAG would ignore FELONY "Accessory After the Fact" and "Aiding & Abetting" the anal-rape of a 10 year old child in favor of pursuing "Misdemeanor FTR" which was thrown out is so beyond absurd and demonstrative of the clear AGENDA-BASED CORRUPTION PRESENT here, it isn't even funny! But according to the ever-reprehensible piece of human excrement known as GMJ11 this POLITICAL PROTECTION SCAM and PSU WITCH-HUNT makes perfect sense - go figure!
 
Thanks for responding to my post. Our basic point of disagreement is that you see Joe as a victim. I do not.

Nor do I see him as the cartoonish villain depicted in so much of the national media.

The reality, as I tried to say, is more complicated and, in a way, scarier: a good man faces a Moment of Truth, a brutal ugliness that repels the normal human mind, and his response falls short.

I say "scary" because for all the brave talk on the part of so many about what they would have done in Joe's place, nobody can know such a thing. They may know what they think they would do, what they hope they would do -- but that's it.

Joe's failure, which he himself, in so many words, acknowledged during the last weeks of his life, was not due to him being a bad man -- but rather just a man, subject to human pressures and weaknesses.

One final point, and I say this as a lifelong Catholic: there are some uncanny parallels between what happened in numerous dioceses around the country and the events at Penn State. The bureaucratic impulse is to cover up and thereby protect the leadership, protect the brand, protect the institution. The result is catastrophe.

Listen, it's not my aim here to win an argument. Nor do I have any intention of engaging in pissing contests. You have your view of things. I have tried, respectfully, to present mine.

Complete and utter BS - JVP did not "fail" PA Law or his Employer's Protocols, Policies and Procedures. The only people who "failed" - as in CLEARLY BREAKING THE LAW - according to the OAG's own FRAUDULENT Presentment were Mike McQueary, John McQueary, Dr. Dranov, Raykovitz/TSM, the PA DPW (now HHS) including employees of its County-Level CYS Offices, Employees of Central Mountain High School and the former AG, his named successor and OAG itself! You of course identify a person who broke NO LAW and followed his Empoloyer's HR Protocols to a tee regarding a well AFTER THE FACT hearsay "HR Administrative Report" by a subordinate as "failing" - go figure! Some of you tools are such laughable hypocritical, defenders of the completely corrupt & indecent clowns, it isn't even funny!
 
The bureaucratic impulse is to cover up and thereby protect the leadership, protect the brand, protect the institution. The result is catastrophe.

Except there was no cover up at PSU. If anything the parallels are with TSM/CYS and the catholic church.

JR and Kitty Genovese at TSM "we had to tell him to back off certain kids before"


As I stated earlier, the system failed. Joe performed his part within the system correctly. Within the work structure, McQueary performed his part within the system correctly (I would state that he failed his responsibility as a citizen if what he claimed ten years later is true). Systemically, it would seem that it broke down at the Curley/Schultz level.

I would argue the system broke down at TSM.

The states own witness, Raykovitz, said during the Spanier trial that fwding MM's report to TSM was an appropriate thing to do.

Why are people acting as if C/S didn't report 2001 incident outside of the school to the mandatory reporters and child care experts at TSM??
 
As I stated earlier, the system failed. Joe performed his part within the system correctly. Within the work structure, McQueary performed his part within the system correctly (I would state that he failed his responsibility as a citizen if what he claimed ten years later is true). Systemically, it would seem that it broke down at the Curley/Schultz level.

What I don't get is why, anywhere along the line, did no one apparently advise McQueary to call the police (or DPW) himself. Not going to even go into the reason why in didn't dawn on him to do so (the answer to that is pretty obvious).
 
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Good Grief! Every football season seems like CNN(or the new National Enquirer) posts some misleading story to get everyone in a tizzy. Why does anyone pay attention to this supposed news service. All they do is bait people. Instead of using words buried deep in the article like "may" or "might have", just report on the facts and post the friggin' police report instead of saying we obtained one. What BS.
 
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Understood. What contemporaneous info makes you believe that Paterno should have contacted the police instead of reporting to Tim & Gary?

(update: asking sincerely)

I don't hold Paterno in contempt for not calling the police. This seems to be the position of "getmyjive11" and a very few others. His claim is that Paterno should have reported the incident to the police and not to his superiors, and that's the reason "he failed". I don't buy that for a second.
 
What I don't get is why, anywhere along the line, did no one apparently advise McQueary to call the police (or DPW) himself. Not going to even go into the reason why in didn't dawn on him to do so (the answer to that is pretty obvious).

The best reason I can think of is because he didn't make it clear that he thought he had witnessed sexual abuse.
 
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### Quick thoughts on Ganim's article
http://web.archive.org/web/20170909...ate-paterno-sandusky-police-report/index.html

Ganim's article is pretty sloppy - lots of implications without solid basis & a handful of errors.
  • The report was written days after Sandusky's arrest in 2011, soon after the 2001 allegation first came to the attention of police.
    • Sloppy. This sentence makes no sense based on what we know of the timeline. The 2001 allegation came to attention of Sandusky investigators in 2010.
  • Freeh's report, which Penn State commissioned for $6.5 million, is no longer available at the university's website, a Penn State spokeswoman confirmed.
    • Kinda sloppy. PSU still has the Freeh Report on their website... did she really ask a PSU spokeswoman... if she did, did that spokeswoman simply confirm her link was dead. FYI - the report is still on the PSU website at a new link: http://www.psu.edu/ur/2012/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf
  • Each time, McQueary recounted how he had witnessed Sandusky engaging in a sexual act with a prepubescent boy late one night in 2001 in a locker room, where McQueary had gone to retrieve some shoes.
    • Sloppy detail. There's never been an indication McQueary was retrieving shoes. He was taking new shoes to drop them off, but only because he went to the Lasch building to get recruiting tapes.
  • Leaves out preceding words in Paterno's quote... "I wish I had done more".
    • Biased? Biased.
  • Interestingly, Ganim doesn't mention her 1971 article. She passingly mentions two reports from the 70's but her link only details the 1976 allegation and the 1987 allegation that Joe Sara was a witness to an incident.

### Was 11/2011 the first time McQueary related that Paterno said these things?
I don't know. Ganim implies the 11/2011 police is a follow-up. But the 11/2010 police report that Ray published makes no mention of the details of their conversation.

Would police leave out those details in the 11/2010 report? I don't know. What I do know is there is testimony that the police first interviewed McQueary for at least an hour. The police report narrative spans barely more than one page. The only mention at all of Paterno is in two sentences, relating that McQueary met with Paterno the next day and "advised him of the incident", and that Paterno referred him to "Penn State officials". The next three sentences mention McQueary meeting with those officials. There are zero details offered about what McQueary specifically said to any of them.


### On the Dottie --> Sue --> Joe --> McQueary statement
From the article:
The police report also notes, again according to McQueary, that Paterno told the young assistant that his wife, Sue Paterno, once had told the head coach that Sandusky's wife, Dottie Sandusky, "told her Jerry doesn't like girls."

The Paterno's & Dottie have all denied this.

But the context of Ganim's article, and the denials, are based on this being related to something sexual. What if it wasn't? I wonder if the context of what Dottie said to Sue (however long ago that was) was more related to:
  1. that they adopted boys first & maybe Dottie had to argue with Jerry to adopt one daughter, and/or
  2. when TSM was founded, and in its early years, it focused solely on boys rather than girls
And... how Sue related that to Joe, how he interpreted it, and then how he relayed that to McQueary in 2001 in the context of what McQueary had just told Paterno ... all with the passage of time.

The Dottie/Sue and Sue/Joe conversations could easily have been in the 70's. Then Joe relates something about it to Mcqueary in 2001. Then McQueary recounts it a decade later with police.


### Would Paterno mention a second incident
It is perfectly believable to me that Joe would mention a similar incident to McQ in 2001.

We know from Curley's testimony at the Spanier trial that he mentioned something about 1998 to Paterno, at least once after he first learned of it, and at least once after the investigation was closed.

If you recall, Schultz took a "nanosecond" to think of 1998 when first hearing about 2001. Sandusky, boy, bear-hug or arms around boy - that's pretty much the same in 1998 & 2001.

You could interpret this one way & say, well, Paterno had no problem mentioning a prior incident to McQueary. That doesn't sound like a cover-up artist.


### Jay Paterno
This all reminded me of Jay Paterno's book. He carefully parsed some words in Chapter 1:
These are the facts. Joe Paterno was made aware that Jerry Sandusky was in the shower with a young boy the day after a witness saw it. What that witness told him is subject to interpretation, but we do know that the witness never told him that he had seen a boy being raped. It was the first and only time Joe Paterno had ever been told by a witness that Jerry had been in the showers with a young boy.

Emphasis on fact that McQ incident was first time he was told "by a witness". This does not contradict Paterno hearing about 1998 from Curley.


### My biggest question is who gave her the report? Why now?
My biggest question on it is who gave her the police report. And when did they give it, why did they give it, and why did she wait until Saturday to publish an article about it.

But then Ganim also said the leak of this police report is no accident?
That McQueary's statement to police is only now coming to light is no accident.
McQueary, who is now writing a memoir about the Sandusky drama...

It seems like she is strongly implying she got the police report from McQueary. But I don't think that's necessarily true. She doesn't actually say she got it from him. Would McQueary think this would help promote his book? How soon is his book coming out? I don't think McQueary has said anything at all about the scandal, outside a courtroom, since a handful of "no comment" responses in November 2011.
 
The best reason I can think of is because he didn't make it clear that he thought he had witnessed sexual abuse.

I'm inclined to agree with that. Which then brings me to my lack of understanding of PA law on reporting of child abuse. If someone describes to a person that they witnessed something "sexual" involving a child is person hearing that description responsible to report it to the authorities if it's no more specific than that?
 
Joe Paterno is not a victim here. The only victims are Sandusky's victims.

The matter is simply one of an incorrect, oversimplified and dramatic narrative that was created to explain the situation. PSU did not knowingly cover up for a serial pedophile to protect football, or any of that idolization BS.

Making a mistake by not reporting is far different from knowingly "concealing" crime(s).

Exactly! According to the State's own worthless, unproven and FRAUDULENT "Presentment - Statement of Fact" claims, the only people guilty of BREAKING LAWS are the only people who went UNCHARGED (including the AG himself who ignored TSM's clear CRIMINAL FRAUDULENCE for more than 3 years DESPITE the AG's SWORN PUBLIC DUTY to protect the General Public from such Charity Fraud & Criminality AND needing no probable cause, court-issued search warrants, court-issued subpoenas or anything else as the AG has complete authority over Charities in PA as they fall under the direct auspice of the AG in PA under "NPO Charitable Trust Law" -- IOW, the AG can walk into any NPO or Charity it likes and demand, quarantine or take custody of whatever records the AG wants - physical paper copies, electronic or otherwise).

Utterly fatuous and inane to claim that "the football coach", PSU Football and the PSU Community are responsible for Sandusky's crimes! The same cannot be said for certain private individuals who were clear "Mandated Reporters" and dozens upon dozens of direct State-Employees working at CMHS, DPW (now HHS) including their County-Level CYS Offices and the OAG! But all these agenda based corruption and BOT servile, boot-licking, toady defenders have no problem with INNOCENT PEOPLE being falsely framed and prosecuted via clear "Prosecutorial Misconduct" and the un-Constitutional manipulation of the Justice System and trampling of citizens INALIENABLE RIGHTS, while the parties clearly guilty of violating all kinds of PA Laws which ENABLED and ABETTED Sandusky are PROTECTED via a clear political corruption scheme involving massive tyranny and abuse of publicly-granted power! Go figure, what a Country!
 
### Quick thoughts on Ganim's article
http://web.archive.org/web/20170909...ate-paterno-sandusky-police-report/index.html

Ganim's article is pretty sloppy - lots of implications without solid basis & a handful of errors.
  • The report was written days after Sandusky's arrest in 2011, soon after the 2001 allegation first came to the attention of police.
    • Sloppy. This sentence makes no sense based on what we know of the timeline. The 2001 allegation came to attention of Sandusky investigators in 2010.
  • Freeh's report, which Penn State commissioned for $6.5 million, is no longer available at the university's website, a Penn State spokeswoman confirmed.
    • Kinda sloppy. PSU still has the Freeh Report on their website... did she really ask a PSU spokeswoman... if she did, did that spokeswoman simply confirm her link was dead. FYI - the report is still on the PSU website at a new link: http://www.psu.edu/ur/2012/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf
  • Each time, McQueary recounted how he had witnessed Sandusky engaging in a sexual act with a prepubescent boy late one night in 2001 in a locker room, where McQueary had gone to retrieve some shoes.
    • Sloppy detail. There's never been an indication McQueary was retrieving shoes. He was taking new shoes to drop them off, but only because he went to the Lasch building to get recruiting tapes.
  • Leaves out preceding words in Paterno's quote... "I wish I had done more".
    • Biased? Biased.
  • Interestingly, Ganim doesn't mention her 1971 article. She passingly mentions two reports from the 70's but her link only details the 1976 allegation and the 1987 allegation that Joe Sara was a witness to an incident.

### Was 11/2011 the first time McQueary related that Paterno said these things?
I don't know. Ganim implies the 11/2011 police is a follow-up. But the 11/2010 police report that Ray published makes no mention of the details of their conversation.

Would police leave out those details in the 11/2010 report? I don't know. What I do know is there is testimony that the police first interviewed McQueary for at least an hour. The police report narrative spans barely more than one page. The only mention at all of Paterno is in two sentences, relating that McQueary met with Paterno the next day and "advised him of the incident", and that Paterno referred him to "Penn State officials". The next three sentences mention McQueary meeting with those officials. There are zero details offered about what McQueary specifically said to any of them.


### On the Dottie --> Sue --> Joe --> McQueary statement
From the article:
The police report also notes, again according to McQueary, that Paterno told the young assistant that his wife, Sue Paterno, once had told the head coach that Sandusky's wife, Dottie Sandusky, "told her Jerry doesn't like girls."

The Paterno's & Dottie have all denied this.

But the context of Ganim's article, and the denials, are based on this being related to something sexual. What if it wasn't? I wonder if the context of what Dottie said to Sue (however long ago that was) was more related to:
  1. that they adopted boys first & maybe Dottie had to argue with Jerry to adopt one daughter, and/or
  2. when TSM was founded, and in its early years, it focused solely on boys rather than girls
And... how Sue related that to Joe, how he interpreted it, and then how he relayed that to McQueary in 2001 in the context of what McQueary had just told Paterno ... all with the passage of time.

The Dottie/Sue and Sue/Joe conversations could easily have been in the 70's. Then Joe relates something about it to Mcqueary in 2001. Then McQueary recounts it a decade later with police.


### Would Paterno mention a second incident
It is perfectly believable to me that Joe would mention a similar incident to McQ in 2001.

We know from Curley's testimony at the Spanier trial that he mentioned something about 1998 to Paterno, at least once after he first learned of it, and at least once after the investigation was closed.

If you recall, Schultz took a "nanosecond" to think of 1998 when first hearing about 2001. Sandusky, boy, bear-hug or arms around boy - that's pretty much the same in 1998 & 2001.

You could interpret this one way & say, well, Paterno had no problem mentioning a prior incident to McQueary. That doesn't sound like a cover-up artist.


### Jay Paterno
This all reminded me of Jay Paterno's book. He carefully parsed some words in Chapter 1:
These are the facts. Joe Paterno was made aware that Jerry Sandusky was in the shower with a young boy the day after a witness saw it. What that witness told him is subject to interpretation, but we do know that the witness never told him that he had seen a boy being raped. It was the first and only time Joe Paterno had ever been told by a witness that Jerry had been in the showers with a young boy.

Emphasis on fact that McQ incident was first time he was told "by a witness". This does not contradict Paterno hearing about 1998 from Curley.


### My biggest question is who gave her the report? Why now?
My biggest question on it is who gave her the police report. And when did they give it, why did they give it, and why did she wait until Saturday to publish an article about it.

But then Ganim also said the leak of this police report is no accident?
That McQueary's statement to police is only now coming to light is no accident.
McQueary, who is now writing a memoir about the Sandusky drama...

It seems like she is strongly implying she got the police report from McQueary. But I don't think that's necessarily true. She doesn't actually say she got it from him. Would McQueary think this would help promote his book? How soon is his book coming out? I don't think McQueary has said anything at all about the scandal, outside a courtroom, since a handful of "no comment" responses in November 2011.

Another inaccuracy to point out is that MM never testified to witnessing a sex act only that he heard some sounds and saw some hugging from behind in a mirror and it looked like a sex act was occurring. IOW MM was speculating.
 
I'm inclined to agree with that. Which then brings me to my lack of understanding of PA law on reporting of child abuse. If someone describes to a person that they witnessed something "sexual" involving a child is person hearing that description responsible to report it to the authorities if it's no more specific than that?

Well, it needs to be further specified than that imho...
  • Did the "reporter" state that they "saw" suspected child abuse or did they say they weren't sure what was going on and merely CONJECTURE that this was one possibility, among many, of what was going on?
  • Was the "reportee" hearing the report a "Mandatory Reporter" in 2001, when the conversation took place (the applicable PA Law has undergone multiple changes since 2001 - first there were changes made in 2007 I believe and then it was changed again in 2009 I believe and finally it has been changed multiple times since 2011. The wonderful PA OAG attempted to bring their C/S/S charges under the current Statute despite it looking NOTHING like the 2001 Statute as it read regarding "Mandatory Reporters")?
The Law was pretty clear in 2001 - getting a "hearsay" report that was mere conjecture (i.e., I saw authorized parties at PSU using the showers at the athletic facilities after-hours and one of them was JS and the other was a child.... I have no idea what was going on in the shower, but it COULD possibly have been motivated by child sexual abuse on the part of JS.....) did not require the listener to report even if they are a "Mandated Reporter" because the reporter has just said that they did not see explicit abuse, they didn't know what was going on in the showers, both parties in the shower were AUTHORIZED USERS of the facility and the reporter merely conjectured that CSA was one of a plethora of reasons for their presence in the shower. So in the case of Dr. Dranov, who was a "Mandatory Reporter" even under 2001 Law, I don't believe there was a requirement for him to report under the Law as he did not actually do the witnessing and there was nothing in the reporter's report to make him believe that they definitively witnessed CSA or were doing anything more than purely conjecturing a potential "worst case" among a plethora of reasons (with all the other reasons being benign) regarding something that they made clear they had no reason to know.

In the case of all the other people who spoke with Mike McQueary (all of them being well AFTER THE FACT except John McQueary), none of these people were even "Mandatory Reporters" under 2001 Law, while all of the same circumstances above still applied to them (i.e., Mike McQueary making extremely soft conjectures about worst case scenarios relative to JS's motivations for being there IS NOT Mike McQueary saying he "saw" and eyewitnessed "a 10 year old child being subjected to anal intercourse" and it is laughable to claim it is based on the reactions and actions of ever party who heard Mike's story MOST ESPECIALLY the actions of his own father and Dr. Dranov who heard Mike's story while the incident was still IN-PROGRESS and recommended that police not be called as what he was reporting wasn't a LE matter,that he should go to bed and finally, report it to his Employer via his HR Channel at his earliest convenience!).
 
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I'm inclined to agree with that. Which then brings me to my lack of understanding of PA law on reporting of child abuse. If someone describes to a person that they witnessed something "sexual" involving a child is person hearing that description responsible to report it to the authorities if it's no more specific than that?
I'm not in PA, but I can tell you from a common sense standpoint that if somebody tells you of something sexual occurring between a child and an adult then absolutely a call should be made. If they say that they witnessed a weird situation that seemed like it might be innapropriate then you get into a gray area.
My rule of thumb is when in doubt, make the call.
 
His agenda is not yet fully exposed. He claims he wants to temper those that recognize the contributions Paterno made. Weird.
He's in administration at PSU, and is still butt hurt over how much influence JVP had
 
I'm not in PA, but I can tell you from a common sense standpoint that if somebody tells you of something sexual occurring between a child and an adult then absolutely a call should be made. If they say that they witnessed a weird situation that seemed like it might be innapropriate then you get into a gray area.
My rule of thumb is when in doubt, make the call.

Mmmmmmm. To me, calling the police is serious business, not done lightly. If someone simply used the term "sexual," particularly a lunkhead like McQueary, I'd ask for a more detailed description. Failing that, I'd tell him to call.

Then again, I'm not a mandatory reporter. For those that are, what triggers their requirement to report?
 
I'm not in PA, but I can tell you from a common sense standpoint that if somebody tells you of something sexual occurring between a child and an adult then absolutely a call should be made. If they say that they witnessed a weird situation that seemed like it might be innapropriate then you get into a gray area.
My rule of thumb is when in doubt, make the call.

The whole thing is a weird situation & grey area.

There's a few people on either extreme who make claims that this is 100% this way or the opposite way, but it was gray from the very beginning and with time its only more and more gray.

And that probably goes for everyone in the whole matter.

Even Ganim - whether we like it or not, if as a reporter she had information she has to publish it. We can debate about tone, sloppiness, whether she had an agenda, but at the end of the day she had to publish. So she's in a gray area also, even with this most recent article. She HAD to publish, but then could/should have been more nuanced or more careful to present other sides.

It's gray all the way from top to bottom.
 
I'm not in PA, but I can tell you from a common sense standpoint that if somebody tells you of something sexual occurring between a child and an adult then absolutely a call should be made. If they say that they witnessed a weird situation that seemed like it might be innapropriate then you get into a gray area.
My rule of thumb is when in doubt, make the call.

Actually, we know for sure that Mike McQueary didn't see or report to seeing and eyewitnessing "a 10 year old child being subjected to anal-rape intercourse" as the OAG's absurd and fraudulent "SWIGJ Presentment - Statement of Fact" claims, because not only would Mike McQueary have been arrested and charged with Felony Obstruction of Justice for not reporting it to 911/Police, but so would his father and Dr. Dranov been arrested and charged for the same thing by the OAG as the same "OAG Presentment - Statement of Fact" claims that MM told them he saw "the 10 year old being subjected to anal-rape intercourse" WHILE IT WAS STILL IN-PROGRESS as far as any of them knew and none of them called authorities to send assisstance and 1st responders to the scene (instead, Dr. Dranov, a "Trained Mandtory Reporter" by his own admission and MM's father both recommended that Mike go to bed and report it via his Employer's HR Channel at his earliest convenience).

Rather absurd to claim that Mike McQueary "saw" and eyewitnessed "the 10 year old being subjected to anal-rape intercourse" - or anything even remotely similar explicitly implying he just saw child abuse - when neither Mike McQueary nor Dr. Dranov or John McQueary were charged with Obstruction of Justice, which is LIGHTYEARS more serious than the patty-cake charge of "Misdemeanor FTR" under PA CPSL that didn't even apply given that none of the parties charged fell under PA CPSL as a "Mandatory Reporter" AND these parties IN FACT and REALITY defacto REPORTED the incident under PA CPSL to a specified "Reporting Agency" under the Code (TSM is clearly specified as having an "Agency Relationship" with DPW under the Code and therefore should have been instructed by DPW that they were to REPORT any and all such Childline Reports they received to DPW as their CONTRACTUAL AGENT and that DPW was responsible for their failures to do so under the law given their "Agency Relationship"....so make sure there are no FAILURES under the Code in regards to this subject.....etc....).

Under the circumstances laid out, how do you come to the conclusion that the well AFTER THE FACT hearers of Mike McQueary's story would default to calling authorities because they would suspect it was Child Sexual Abuse when these parties were just TOLD by Mike McQueary that neither he, his father or Dr. Dranov CLEARLY didn't think it was Criminal Child Sexual Abuse given that Mike would have just told them he DID NOT CALL the police from the scene based on what he saw.....AND THEN his father and Dr. Dranov recommended not calling police based on what he told them he SAW and witnessed DESPITE THE INCIDENT STILL BEING IN-PROGRESS when Mike was talking to them....and finally Mike telling the listener that he is there because this is what his father and Dr. Dranov RECOMMENDED he should do after listening to his story the night before WHILE THE INCIDENT WAS STILL IN-PROGRESS?!?!

Huh? What? How would any listener after listening to all that come to the conclusion that Mike (his father and Dr. Dranov as well) was convinced that he saw and eyewitnessed Criminal Child Sexual Assault of any kind, let alone "the child being subjected to anal-rape intercourse"???
 
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Mmmmmmm. To me, calling the police is serious business, not done lightly. If someone simply used the term "sexual," particularly a lunkhead like McQueary, I'd ask for a more detailed description. Failing that, I'd tell him to call.

Then again, I'm not a mandatory reporter. For those that are, what triggers their requirement to report?
When I said that a call should be made, I was thinking of social services more than the police. McQueary should have called the police when (if) he saw the crime being committed.
When you start getting into reporting or not reporting because of someone's lunkheadedness you run the risk of losing your job. If you have reasonable suspicion to believe that a child is being harmed/neglected then you need to call.
 
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Even Ganim - whether we like it or not, if as a reporter she had information she has to publish it. We can debate about tone, sloppiness, whether she had an agenda, but at the end of the day she had to publish. So she's in a gray area also, even with this most recent article. She HAD to publish, but then could/should have been more nuanced or more careful to present other sides.

What law requires her to publish information about her previous story? Why is it OK that she only publishes the new information that helps her narrative, and ignores the info that destroys it?

Please stop with the "she HAD to publish" crap. No one is buying it.
 
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So, since MM failed that night and is largely responsible for not only letting JS continue for ten years but tons of damage to the university and area....do you think he might embellish or twist facts to lessen his guilt and participation in this fiasco?

Who might he blame things on?
If he were to blame anyone, it would be CSS. He didn't embellish anything.
 
When I said that a call should be made, I was thinking of social services more than the police. McQueary should have called the police when (if) he saw the crime being committed.
When you start getting into reporting or not reporting because of someone's lunkheadedness you run the risk of losing your job. If you have reasonable suspicion to believe that a child is being harmed/neglected then you need to call.
Exactly it. Which is why Dranov either needs to be retrained as a mandatory reporter and/or he knows he screwed up and was just saving his ass on the stand.
 
He's in administration at PSU, and is still butt hurt over how much influence JVP had

That is certainly what it seems like.

Why would anyone resent a football coach who gave so much for so long to so many? A football coach who cared about education? It's just so weird.
 
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If you have a reason, it is personal and petty. Why do you have a hard time understanding it?
Personal how? I never talked to the man once. He walked by me one time at the park behind his house. That in total was my interaction with him.
 
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