CNN: U.S. college enrollment is dropping.

[Art]

Art: the problem is that there is no consequence for the lender. The credit extended does not match the risk. And you've seen how a lot of people treat credit...

So not being repaid is not a consequence?

If a lender has inadequate credit standards, that's their problem regardless of how people treat credit.

 

[miketd1]

Art: The loans are guaranteed. They can't even be expunged in a personal bankruptcy.

 

[PSU65]

Sort of counterintuitive. You would think that more kids would be going the less expensive route of community colleges.

 

[Art]

Art: The loans are guaranteed. They can't even be expunged in a personal bankruptcy.

And? What are you arguing? Lender makes a bad decision...consequences, lender doesn't get repaid. Borrower makes a bad decision, on the hook for life with wrecked credit. Sometimes shit is supposed to happen.

 

[miketd1]

 

[LionFan87b]

And? What are you arguing? Lender makes a bad decision...consequences, lender doesn't get repaid. Borrower makes a bad decision, on the hook for life with wrecked credit. Sometimes shit is supposed to happen.

I think his point is that with a guaranteed loan, the lender does get repaid. If the borrower defaults, then the government pays the lender.

 

[KnightSlayer]

And? What are you arguing? Lender makes a bad decision...consequences, lender doesn't get repaid. Borrower makes a bad decision, on the hook for life with wrecked credit. Sometimes shit is supposed to happen.

So why are college loans exempt from bankruptcy? What makes this debt so different than all the other debt that is dischargeable through bankruptcy?

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I think his point is that with a guaranteed loan, the lender does get repaid. If the borrower defaults, then the government pays the lender.

And therein lies the rub.

I never want to tell people to not go after their dreams or follow their passions. That is what makes life worth living. At the same time, if you are following your dreams and passions in a field with little prospect of economic return, especially if you are borrowing a boatload of cash to do so . . . there is the slight problem of repaying the money YOU borrowed. That needs to be very carefully considered BEFORE you sign on the line which is dotted.

There are many things you can study in college and they're great, they're interesting, people love them. But they are very iffy at providing return on investment. An adult HAS to be able to support themselves, keep a roof over their heads and beer in the fridge and the lights burning. And baby needs a new pair of shoes.

If your passion cannot do these things, then it is simply NOT a career. It's an avocation. You do that on the weekends and on your own time and you love every minute of it. But you have to do something else to pay the bills. And don't waste your breath complaining about it. Nobody owes you a living. You make your own choices and bear the consequences.

 

[LionFan87b]

And therein lies the rub.

I never want to tell people to not go after their dreams or follow their passions. That is what makes life worth living. At the same time, if you are following your dreams and passions in a field with little prospect of economic return, especially if you are borrowing a boatload of cash to do so . . . there is the slight problem of repaying the money YOU borrowed. That needs to be very carefully considered BEFORE you sign on the line which is dotted.

There are many things you can study in college and they're great, they're interesting, people love them. But they are very iffy at providing return on investment. An adult HAS to be able to support themselves, keep a roof over their heads and beer in the fridge and the lights burning. And baby needs a new pair of shoes.

If your passion cannot do these things, then it is simply NOT a career. It's an avocation. You do that on the weekends and on your own time and you love every minute of it. But you have to do something else to pay the bills. And don't waste your breath complaining about it. Nobody owes you a living. You make your own choices and bear the consequences.

1. Roof
2. Beer
3. Lights
4. Baby's shoes

I like your priorities! ;+)

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

So why are college loans exempt from bankruptcy? What makes this debt so different than all the other debt that is dischargeable through bankruptcy?

That is a good question, one to which I do not know the answer. However there are other non-dischargeable debts, including any to the IRS.

If you make it dischargeable, that's fine, interest rates will have to rise to cover the added risk. Thus making SL's more expensive to the borrower.

Nothing is free.

 

[dawgduice]

There is accountability: you take out a loan, you repay it or face the consequences.

As far as guaranteed outcomes go, that's absurd on its face.

You are correct that is what the current system tells you - got a degree as a "witch-doctor" THAT is YOUR problem we just took your money . IF the government "actually" represented tax payers and used the funds to "train" young people to be meaningful members of society and provide for a family or self, then we would be on to something ;-), good luck with that.
The "system" now is - "THE WHATEVER DEGREE". It's a banking community bonanza, they have moved on from real-estate and 21% Charge card "loans".


Well, I do not want to get into a "political" discussion, so time for me to just move one.

 

[dawgduice]

That is a good question, one to which I do not know the answer. However there are other non-dischargeable debts, including any to the IRS.

If you make it dischargeable, that's fine, interest rates will have to rise to cover the added risk. Thus making SL's more expensive to the borrower.

Nothing is free.

That is because YOU are not in the 1% ;-) So NO bankruptcy for YOU !!!!!!

 

[Op2]

And therein lies the rub.

I never want to tell people to not go after their dreams or follow their passions. That is what makes life worth living. At the same time, if you are following your dreams and passions in a field with little prospect of economic return, especially if you are borrowing a boatload of cash to do so . . . there is the slight problem of repaying the money YOU borrowed. That needs to be very carefully considered BEFORE you sign on the line which is dotted.

There are many things you can study in college and they're great, they're interesting, people love them. But they are very iffy at providing return on investment. An adult HAS to be able to support themselves, keep a roof over their heads and beer in the fridge and the lights burning. And baby needs a new pair of shoes.

If your passion cannot do these things, then it is simply NOT a career. It's an avocation. You do that on the weekends and on your own time and you love every minute of it. But you have to do something else to pay the bills. And don't waste your breath complaining about it. Nobody owes you a living. You make your own choices and bear the consequences.

I agree with this but part of it is what makes me wonder about the idea of free college. If you have to pay for college (or hustle for loans or grants) then you major in whatever you want and if you can't get a decent paying job afterwards then that's your problem. But if college is free then what is to prevent people from just using it as a four year vacation for people to indulge their intellect in studying anything that pleases them without regard to whether it'll get them a job afterwards?

 

[rutgersdave]

I believe it about elevator repairmen. It is a highly specialized skill and in high demand, and the elevator maintenance companies charge us over $200/hr for repair work.

A lot of the trades are well-paid and in high demand. Another area that will see higher demand that does not need a 4 year degree (but does require years of sacrifice starting at the bottom and working your way up) is commercial airline pilot. My brother is a captain for a large airline and tells me a lot of the old guys are starting to retire, so the demand is there. You start at the bottom as a pilot but after several years your are at over 100k for commercial, and captains make over 150k.

I worked at Westinghouse Electric 35 years ago as an internal auditor and audited the elevator division. The elevator workers made $100k back in the 1980's with Overtime.

 

[KnightSlayer]

But if college is free then what is to prevent people from just using it as a four year vacation for people to indulge their intellect in studying anything that pleases them without regard to whether it'll get them a job afterwards?

I'd argue that people studying what pleases them is better than shoehorning people into a subject just for a future paycheck.

 

[Art]

So why are college loans exempt from bankruptcy? What makes this debt so different than all the other debt that is dischargeable through bankruptcy?

Large part of it is that most of the debt is owed to the US government. In the good old day, student loans could be discharged through bankruptcy. Amendment to the Bankruptcy Code in the '70s eliminating that was seen as a quid pro-quo for expanding the programs.

 

[LionFan87b]

I'd argue that people studying what pleases them is better than shoehorning people into a subject just for a future paycheck.

Philosophically, you might have a point. But from a practical standpoint, a good argument can be made that the taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for that.

Furthermore, don't underestimate the importance of a paycheck. Money might not buy happiness, but it really helps, especially if you have the rest of your life in order. Would I prefer to play music for a living? Sure! But since doing so would make it much harder to provide for my family, I will gladly keep my practical job and noodle on my guitar on the occasional Sunday night.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Philosophically, you might have a point. But from a practical standpoint, a good argument can be made that the taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for that.

Furthermore, don't underestimate the importance of a paycheck. Money might not buy happiness, but it really helps, especially if you have the rest of your life in order. Would I prefer to play music for a living? Sure! But since doing so would make it much harder to provide for my family, I will gladly keep my practical job and noodle on my guitar on the occasional Sunday night.

One could argue that an uneducated population is just as much a burden on society as the added cost of educating people who want to learn. I'd like to hear the arguments from people who think our country is better off with less educated citizens. I realize there are people in power who want to control our citizens and uneducated people are easier to manipulate but, I don't think there wishes coincide with what is best for our country as a whole.

 

[LionFan87b]

One could argue that an uneducated population is just as much a burden on society as the added cost of educating people who want to learn. I'd like to hear the arguments from people who think our country is better off with less educated citizens. I realize there are people in power who want to control our citizens and uneducated people are easier to manipulate but, I don't think there wishes coincide with what is best for our country as a whole.

I would never argue in favor of an uneducated population. To me, it's a question of what kind of education makes the most sense. For many people, vocational education is more helpful than a traditional college education.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

One could argue that an uneducated population is just as much a burden on society as the added cost of educating people who want to learn. I'd like to hear the arguments from people who think our country is better off with less educated citizens. I realize there are people in power who want to control our citizens and uneducated people are easier to manipulate but, I don't think there wishes coincide with what is best for our country as a whole.

That's a straw man argument. No one is advocating for a less-educated citizenry.

Becoming highly educated in Grecian Urns is the issue. There are a handful of people - a handful - who make a living at that. And no, the taxpayers do not owe anyone the opportunity to study Grecian Urns.

If your lifelong passion is Grecian Urns, here's what you do. First - pursue something that allows you to support yourself and be a contributing member of society (including paying back your student loans). Second - you spend your weekends at the Carnegie and become the best tour guide/docent of Grecian Urns that they have ever seen and see where that takes you. In the meantime - pay your bills.

 

[Op2]

One could argue that an uneducated population is just as much a burden on society as the added cost of educating people who want to learn. I'd like to hear the arguments from people who think our country is better off with less educated citizens. I realize there are people in power who want to control our citizens and uneducated people are easier to manipulate but, I don't think there wishes coincide with what is best for our country as a whole.

I'm all for a good education but some of the academic "disciplines" can be over the top and I'm not so sure that we should have to pay for anything that someone says they want to study. Here is an abstract on hobosexuals. This is real.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/05/academic-absurdity-of-the-week-hobosexuality.php

 

[heckmans]

See the link below. Not terribly surprising, but the article puts some numbers behind it. From the article:

"For years, America's college campuses swelled with more and more students. But enrollment peaked in 2010 at just over 21 million students. Attendance has dropped every year since.

By the fall of 2014 -- the most recent year government data is available -- there were 812,069 fewer students walking around college campuses."

And,

"Dig a little deeper and the data gets even more troubling.

The two types of colleges with the biggest declines in enrollment are: community colleges and for-profit universities. Those schools draw heavily from low-income and minority households.

Community colleges are often lifelines for poor families. They are close to home, they don't require SAT scores, and they have cheap price tags.

President Obama proposed making community colleges free for two years because they are the gateway to higher education -- and better jobs -- for so many Americans. Since 2010, enrollment at community college has fallen by over 820,000 students."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/20/news/economy/college-enrollment-down/index.html

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Free is not free. All the rest of us who have already paid will be paying for this "free college". Many of you are still paying on your college loans would then be paying for this "free college" on top of you college loans. That is unless they forgive all college loans and then those of us who are free and clear and have already paid for our college will then have an even larger bill to pay for all "free college" plus the approaching $2 trillion in current student loan debt. Who among you who have already paid their share and worked hard for it think that you ought to pay for everyone who hasn't?

Don't forget about the bankrupt and woefully underfunded Social Security "pension" system, medicare, medicade (which has essentially been expanded exponentially by the Affordable Care Act with zero new funding), etc.... The fact that people buy into this "populist" bull$hit that the gov-ment really has a magic-wand that makes these things "free" speaks louder than anything as to what a bunch of know-nothing, no-thought, sound-bite rubes the general populace has become.