Coaching record

[green2623]

In they're first eleven seasons the records stand at JF 101-41
JP 101-25, so there's that.
Eleven year to play in national championship not quite done yet.
Joe needed five more years until he played Georgia. Just a very quick check of the numbers. Have at it.

 

[LMTLION]

In they're first eleven seasons the records stand at JF 101-41
JP 101-25, so there's that.
Eleven year to play in national championship not quite done yet.
Joe needed five more years until he played Georgia. Just a very quick check of the numbers. Have at it.

I loved Joe and I love Franklin. It could be argued that Joe did not follow near death penalty level sanctions. It is not apples to apples.

 

[diontechristmas]

I loved Joe and I love Franklin. It could be argued that Joe did not follow near death penalty level sanctions. It is not apples to apples.

Joe was also sitting on arguably the best recruiting grounds in the country at the time. He was pulling Hall of Famers (Ham) and Outland trophy winners (Reid) out of places like Johnstown and Altoona. I may be wrong, but Kevin Givens is the only starter we’ve had out of either town in a decade.

Joe also had to lift a middling eastern school into a national power. There will never be an other Joe Paterno but he also enjoyed some huge advantages that allowed him to feed the monster.

 

[voltz99]

Joe was also sitting on arguably the best recruiting grounds in the country at the time. He was pulling Hall of Famers (Ham) and Outland trophy winners (Reid) out of places like Johnstown and Altoona. I may be wrong, but Kevin Givens is the only starter we’ve had out of either town in a decade.

Joe also had to lift a middling eastern school into a national power. There will never be an other Joe Paterno but he also enjoyed some huge advantages that allowed him to feed the monster.

Yep.

When joe was coach Pennsylvania was the state with the third most talent. Now we are usually outside he top 10. This year Pennsylvania had 9 four stars and zero 5s. Georgia had 49 4s and 5s.

 

[diontechristmas]

Yep.

When joe was coach Pennsylvania was the state with the third most talent. Now we are usually outside he top 10. This year Pennsylvania had 9 four stars and zero 5s. Georgia had 49 4s and 5s.

Not sure we would ever know for sure but I remember someone posted an article from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette from the early 70’s and they reported a list of over 100 WPIAL recruits getting D1 scholarships. They were going everywhere, the Big 10, Big 8, ACC etc.

Western PA and Eastern Ohio was the place for football talent 50 years ago.

 

[Safety Blitz]

The field is still 100 yards.
The ball is basically the same.
Most everything else about college football has changed so much that comparisons across eras are pretty much silly exercises.
They can be fun, but still silly.

 

[green2623]

Well, my curiosity was aroused by these recent football games so I just started looking stuff up. I started my matriculation in 73, and graduated in four years, met my wife of near fifty years, and knew a good number of football players from west Halls. Ran into Joe once month around west halls. As well as wrestling coaches Rich Lorenzo and Andy Matters, who both ask me to walk on. I was ready to do school and move on. So anyhow the years of ineptitude of the BOT hit me and my regular game day buddies pretty hard. I stuck it out. But this is my last year, I hope Franklin gets his wish to be the first afro-american to win a national championship, I was hoping we'd be playing Texas and reminding them We Are.

 

[ForesterGump]

In 1969, President Nixon awarded Texas as the #1 football team in the country. Penn State also had a 11-0 record and the longest win streak. But Joe went to the Orange bowl and not the Cotton bowl to face Texas.

Joe was quoted as saying "I don't know how President Nixon could know so much about football in 1969 and so little about Watergate in 1973".

 

[bdgan]

In they're first eleven seasons the records stand at JF 101-41
JP 101-25, so there's that.
Eleven year to play in national championship not quite done yet.
Joe needed five more years until he played Georgia. Just a very quick check of the numbers. Have at it.

I hate these Joe vs James debates. Joe is a legend and his record should stand on his own merits. We know that Joe had undefeated seasons but NC games didn't exist at the time.

To me it's like comparing Bonds to Ruth. They were different eras with different rules. When Ruth hit 60 HRs the average team hit 58. When bonds hit 73 the average team hit 185.

When Joe coached there were seasons when they only played 10 games and there were fewer bowls. Franklin touts winning a school record 13 games but PSU has already played 15 games. That's not a shot at Franklin. Things are just different and difficult to compare. Judge each on their own merits.

 

[voltz99]

The field is still 100 yards.
The ball is basically the same.
Most everything else about college football has changed so much that comparisons across eras are pretty much silly exercises.
They can be fun, but still silly.

What was joes excuse from 95-2012?

 

[roswelllion]

In they're first eleven seasons the records stand at JF 101-41
JP 101-25, so there's that.
Eleven year to play in national championship not quite done yet.
Joe needed five more years until he played Georgia. Just a very quick check of the numbers. Have at it.

I love Joe Pa but he didn't face tOSU and Michigan every year either. having said that JP did have some "big wins" along the way. prior to cheating our record against scUM was not horrible. had we just won 1 of 2 we blew big in the 4Q against the Buckeyes I say the narrative doesn't exist.
It would be funny if the cheaters were forced to forfeit some of there games in 21,22,23 CJF's record would look fine.

 

[heckmans]

I hate these Joe vs James debates. Joe is a legend and his record should stand on his own merits. We know that Joe had undefeated seasons but NC games didn't exist at the time.

To me it's like comparing Bonds to Ruth. They were different eras with different rules. When Ruth hit 60 HRs the average team hit 58. When bonds hit 73 the average team hit 185.

When Joe coached there were seasons when they only played 10 games and there were fewer bowls. Franklin touts winning a school record 13 games but PSU has already played 15 games. That's not a shot at Franklin. Things are just different and difficult to compare. Judge each on their own merits.

Agreed. It's nearly impossible to compare any sport across eras.
What we can compare is relative performance against peers/peer programs.
I like JF in all things other than actual Xs & Os. It's fair to say that Joe performed better against his peers than JF.

Joe prepared his teams and put his players in positions to win. He was a net positive to the talent level of his players.
All evidence suggests that JF wins b/c of the talent he recruits. Full Stop. He loses to teams of same/similar talent and is NOT a net positive to the talent level of his players.

Separately, if we look at the records in the OP, they show the following win % for each
JP - .801
JF - .711
That's not an insignificant difference. I'm not old enough to even guess which coach faced a tougher SOS overall in their first 11 seasons.
What I think IS accurate to say however, is that Joe's record in bowl games (ie teams of same/similar talent) speaks very well to his ability to actually coach football.

 

[Kasparaitis]

What was joes excuse from 95-2012?

There’s nothing to excuse. Joe was the greatest coach in the history of college football.

 

[saturdaysarebetter2]

Not sure we would ever know for sure but I remember someone posted an article from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette from the early 70’s and they reported a list of over 100 WPIAL recruits getting D1 scholarships. They were going everywhere, the Big 10, Big 8, ACC etc.

Western PA and Eastern Ohio was the place for football talent 50 years ago.

It certainly was.

Southwest Pennsylvania – Breeding Ground for the NCAA and the NFL

For a region not as heavily populated as some areas of the country, Southwest Pennsylvania has produced a large number of college and pro football greats over the years. Not only does Southwest Pen…

johnbaranowski.wordpress.com

 

[roswelllion]

Agreed. It's nearly impossible to compare any sport across eras.
What we can compare is relative performance against peers/peer programs.
I like JF in all things other than actual Xs & Os. It's fair to say that Joe performed better against his peers than JF.

Joe prepared his teams and put his players in positions to win. He was a net positive to the talent level of his players.
All evidence suggests that JF wins b/c of the talent he recruits. Full Stop. He loses to teams of same/similar talent and is NOT a net positive to the talent level of his players.

Separately, if we look at the records in the OP, they show the following win % for each
JP - .801
JF - .711
That's not an insignificant difference. I'm not old enough to even guess which coach faced a tougher SOS overall in their first 11 seasons.
What I think IS accurate to say however, is that Joe's record in bowl games (ie teams of same/similar talent) speaks very well to his ability to actually coach football.

JF loses to teams of same or similar talent. Not so sure about that? Who of similar talent has JF lost to. Point spread plus or minus 2. I think they had very similar records. win when they should and lose when they should.
JP had some HUGE notable exceptions to that of course. UCLA 67, Pitt 48-14, Miami Natty, ND in early 90's when ND was number 1. CJF probably only tOSU 16. Joe Pa is on the Mt Rushmore of College Football, CJF no whete near there but a damn good 11 year run comig out of sanctions.

 

[diontechristmas]

JF loses to teams of same or similar talent. Not so sure about that? Who of similar talent has JF lost to. Point spread plus or minus 2. I think they had very similar records. win when they should and lose when they should.
JP had some HUGE notable exceptions to that of course. UCLA 67, Pitt 48-14, Miami Natty, ND in early 90's when ND was number 1. CJF probably only tOSU 16. Joe Pa is on the Mt Rushmore of College Football, CJF no whete near there but a damn good 11 year run comig out of sanctions.

Joe had a real problem with Iowa later in his career.

 

[heckmans]

Joe had a real problem with Iowa later in his career.

If you're hanging your hat on 75yo JP who was depressed after George died, as a way to bolster JF's performance, I don't think there is much else to talk about.

FWIW, I don't think what I said is particularly controversial. JF has not fared well against programs that would be considered peers in CFB. I keep expressing hope that it will change and I continue to express that hope. Thursday will be the next opportunity.

 

[diontechristmas]

If you're hanging your hat on 75yo JP who was depressed after George died, as a way to bolster JF's performance, I don't think there is much else to talk about.

FWIW, I don't think what I said is particularly controversial. JF has not fared well against programs that would be considered peers in CFB. I keep expressing hope that it will change and I continue to express that hope. Thursday will be the next opportunity.

No I’m not. Right on this thread I stated Joe’s excellence several times, but he wasn’t perfect. I was also replying to another poster who implied that Joe never or very infrequently lost to teams with equal or lesser talent.

Well Iowa had his number, and I don’t think Iowa ever had better talent except maybe one or two of the “dark years” teams.

 

[heckmans]

I love Joe Pa but he didn't face tOSU and Michigan every year either. having said that JP did have some "big wins" along the way. prior to cheating our record against scUM was not horrible. had we just won 1 of 2 we blew big in the 4Q against the Buckeyes I say the narrative doesn't exist.
It would be funny if the cheaters were forced to forfeit some of there games in 21,22,23 CJF's record would look fine.

Agreed. There was the 2 or 3 TD collapse against OSU and the 3TD (I think) collapse in the Rose Bowl against USC.
IMHO, this is where coaching comes in. Good coaches adjust the game plan and grind the clock down to reduce the opportunities the opponent will have to come back.

Aside from that, against tOSU specifically, most years PSU has just never felt competitive. The Defense generally kept the game low scoring, but it never felt like the offense was going to score enough to win. It always felt like the Defense was going to have to make a play, or special teams, as in '16. This year felt the closest with the O in position to punch it in twice, but in the end, managed zero offensive TDs.

 

[heckmans]

No I’m not. Right on this thread I stated Joe’s excellence several times, but he wasn’t perfect. I was also replying to another poster who implied that Joe never or very infrequently lost to teams with equal or lesser talent.

Well Iowa had his number, and I don’t think Iowa ever had better talent except maybe one or two of the “dark years” teams.

IDK man. The OP was about the first 11 years of each coach and you bring up Joe's record against IA when he was very old.
RE: talent, I would generally agree, except for on the lines, which can be a major equalizer.

 

[diontechristmas]

IDK man. The OP was about the first 11 years of each coach and you bring up Joe's record against IA when he was very old.
RE: talent, I would generally agree, except for on the lines, which can be a major equalizer.

You’re right I forgot about the first 11 year discussion being the point. I think Joe had better talent at that time than 90% of his schedule. He of course had to get the talent, but also had great recruiting grounds locally. He also got to primarily create the schedule as an Indy.

 

[Ward Hog]

Our problem with OSU is that we have become totally conservative. Probablyto keep possessions down and field position, we just go boring. OSU actually does the same thing which makes for close games. They win because we eventually give up a play or two or wear our D down by not even trying to move the ball.

Back in 17 & 18 we had big leads and tried to sit on it, which failed miserably. Then we went into the giving up defensive touchdowns or real short field mode with multiple bad turnovers. These games were still usually close and pretty even until we self destructed.

Lately it's just not make a mistake mode, which has been difficult to watch from an O perspective and tends to wear our D down.

We just have to play to win and not to not lose.

 

[bdgan]

What was joes excuse from 95-2012?

That comment sounds like somebody who has an anti Paterno agenda.

First, the discussion was that it's difficult to compare coaches/players from different eras. The intention was to avoid comparing one coach to the other but you felt compelled to take a shot at Joe. Second, I think even the most staunch Paterno supporters agree that he stayed too long. So why must we relitigate that?

But you asked so here goes:

• Joe's career record was 409-136-3 (75%). That includes all years both good and bad. He also won a record 24 bowl games (when they meant something) and had 5 undefeated seasons.
• From 1995-1999 Joe was 48-14 (77%) with no team finishing worse than 16th. I don't understand your criticism.
• From 2000-2004 Joe was 26-33 (44%). Those were the dark years when almost everybody thought Joe stayed too long. No excuse!
• From 2005-2011 Joe was 65-20 (77%). Somehow Joe managed to reinvent himself and I have no idea how he did it considering his health and inability to travel to recruit. During that stretch he won 2 BiG titles, had a top 3 finish, 2 other top 10 finishes, and 2 other top 25 finishes.

So what's his excuse? He stayed too long and doesn't get an excuse. But the bad period wasn't 1995-2012. It was 2000-2004. More importantly it was a different time. Joe focused more on academics and didn't have to worry about paying players. I don't think he would have survived in today's game but that doesn't diminish what he accomplished over the course of his career.

 

[roswelllion]

Joe had a real problem with Iowa later in his career.

He also had a horrible run at the at scUM against Lloyd Carr.

 

[voltz99]

If you're hanging your hat on 75yo JP who was depressed after George died, as a way to bolster JF's performance, I don't think there is much else to talk about.

FWIW, I don't think what I said is particularly controversial. JF has not fared well against programs that would be considered peers in CFB. I keep expressing hope that it will change and I continue to express that hope. Thursday will be the next opportunity.

Losing record vs Iowa, OSU and UM.



Maybe JF should schedule more games vs Syracuse, WVU, Maryland, Rutgers, Temple, Army, Navy, MAC and the schools Joe used to feast on. It is a little different in the B10.

 

[Kasparaitis]

Losing record vs Iowa, OSU and UM.



Maybe JF should schedule more games vs Syracuse, WVU, Maryland, Rutgers, Temple, Army, Navy, MAC and the schools Joe used to feast on. It is a little different in the B10.

USC, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Alabama, Ohio State, Pitt. You’re forgetful.

 

[SLUPSU]

That comment sounds like somebody who has an anti Paterno agenda.

First, the discussion was that it's difficult to compare coaches/players from different eras. The intention was to avoid comparing one coach to the other but you felt compelled to take a shot at Joe. Second, I think even the most staunch Paterno supporters agree that he stayed too long. So why must we relitigate that?

But you asked so here goes:

• Joe's career record was 409-136-3 (75%). That includes all years both good and bad. He also won a record 24 bowl games (when they meant something) and had 5 undefeated seasons.
• From 1995-1999 Joe was 48-14 (77%) with no team finishing worse than 16th. I don't understand your criticism.
• From 2000-2004 Joe was 26-33 (44%). Those were the dark years when almost everybody thought Joe stayed too long. No excuse!
• From 2005-2011 Joe was 65-20 (77%). Somehow Joe managed to reinvent himself and I have no idea how he did it considering his health and inability to travel to recruit. During that stretch he won 2 BiG titles, had a top 3 finish, 2 other top 10 finishes, and 2 other top 25 finishes.

So what's his excuse? He stayed too long and doesn't get an excuse. But the bad period wasn't 1995-2012. It was 2000-2004. More importantly it was a different time. Joe focused more on academics and didn't have to worry about paying players. I don't think he would have survived in today's game but that doesn't diminish what he accomplished over the course of his career.

The primary "excuse" was the implementation of scholarship limits. Scholarship limits changed to 85 around 1994 and it seems to mark the start of Joe's decline and were an equalizer across the NCAA. His winning percentage was about 79% in the 27 years prior and about 69% in the 18 years after. Joe had several of his early years with no limits.

His season record was about 9W/2.5L before and about 8.5W/3.75L after the 85 limit.

 

[voltz99]

In they're first eleven seasons the records stand at JF 101-41
JP 101-25, so there's that.
Eleven year to play in national championship not quite done yet.
Joe needed five more years until he played Georgia. Just a very quick check of the numbers. Have at it.

If Franklin loses his next 60 he will be .500 and and in the same league as matt rhule.

 

[voltz99]

USC, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Alabama, Ohio State, Pitt. You’re forgetful.

16-18 vs USC, Notre Dame, OSU, Nebraska and Alabama from 70-90.

Probably should have scheduled more games vs army, navy, Boston college, Ohio u. He even had a game vs brown and William and Mary.

 

[roswelllion]

If you're hanging your hat on 75yo JP who was depressed after George died, as a way to bolster JF's performance, I don't think there is much else to talk about.

FWIW, I don't think what I said is particularly controversial. JF has not fared well against programs that would be considered peers in CFB. I keep expressing hope that it will change and I continue to express that hope. Thursday will be the next opportunity.

The reason I previously asked the question about who were JF's peers was because it seemed you infered tOSU is a peer. Regrettably, being a large state school with a large stadium is about the only thing we are on a peer level with them. Without looking [I will and edit this post] I would guess over the last 20 years we are probably 10 positions behind them in recruiting rank. Recent days probably has us $10 per year behind them in NIL. They simply have been better than us over the most recent history. Michigan not so much but before the cheating years are recent record with scUM has been okay.
Edit . I looked at the recruiting rankings of the B1G over the last 10 years. The cumulative score was Ohio State 12 [9 number 1 ranks and 1 number 3]. PSU 37 [zero number 1's]

 

[heckmans]

The reason I previously asked the question about who were JF's peers was because it seemed you infered tOSU is a peer. Regrettably, being a large state school with a large stadium is about the only thing we are on a peer level with them. Without looking [I will and edit this post] I would guess over the last 20 years we are probably 10 positions behind them in recruiting rank. Recent days probably has us $10 per year behind them in NIL. They simply have been better than us over the most recent history. michigan not so much but before the cheating years are recent record with scUM has been okay.

It's a perfectly fair position to assert that PSU shouldn't have any expectations of competing with OSU. It would be an interesting discussion to examine if JF and $8.5M/yr to be 2nd tier is the accepted path and what PSU fans should invest boat loads of time and money on.

Unfortunately, if anyone asserts a position that JF should be able compete, at least "sometimes," the nittany brown-shirts come out and state that we don't talk about JF's coaching performance. It's like he's Bruno, or something.

 

[ryoder1]

In 1969, President Nixon awarded Texas as the #1 football team in the country. Penn State also had a 11-0 record and the longest win streak. But Joe went to the Orange bowl and not the Cotton bowl to face Texas.

Joe was quoted as saying "I don't know how President Nixon could know so much about football in 1969 and so little about Watergate in 1973".

A great, great line. College football back then was ridiculous. Nixon anointing the #1 team. Wtf.

 

[Kasparaitis]

16-18 vs USC, Notre Dame, OSU, Nebraska and Alabama from 70-90.

Probably should have scheduled more games vs army, navy, Boston college, Ohio u. He even had a game vs brown and William and Mary.

Your weak criticism is tired and lame. The great Alabama begged out of our series because they couldn’t compete. This year they played Mercer. Michigan rolled over Bowling Green and still had to cheat to get a national championship. Joe Paterno never backed down from anyone and set the World Record on the way. Get out of here with your tomfoolery.

 

[voltz99]

Your weak criticism is tired and lame. The great Alabama begged out of our series because they couldn’t compete. This year they played Mercer. Michigan rolled over Bowling Green and still had to cheat to get a national championship. Joe Paterno never backed down from anyone and set the World Record on the way. Get out of here with your tomfoolery.

You brought up those teams. Joe had a losing record vs them.

 

[Kasparaitis]

You brought up those teams. Joe had a losing record vs them.

You seem to be like the kind of guy who looks at the Grand Canyon and says, yeah but it’s uneven.

 

[summitlion1]

USC, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Alabama, Ohio State, Pitt. You’re forgetful.

Or ignorant