Could we have been Champions if Bo did not Red Shirt Last year?

[ejb25]

Last year, we talked about what-ifs with Zain, Megaludis and Nolf not red shirting. Nobody included Bo in their What-ifs scenarios. In my what-if, I'm thinking Bo wrestles 174 and Matt Brown to 184. I think Matt Brown could have challenged Gabe Dean at 184.

Would that line-up score more than the 102 points than OSU scored? I say yes.

125 - Nico
133 - Jimmy
141 - Zain
149 - Beitz
157 - Nolf
165 - Hammond
174 - Bo
184 - Matt Brown
197 - Mcintosh
HWT - Lawson

 

[El-Jefe]

Bo was injured at the Scuffle, withdrew, and did not wrestle the rest of the season.

So all this would've done was burn 3 shirts for no good reason. Tom Ryan approves of this plan.

 

[dunkej01]

Bo was injured at the Scuffle, withdrew, and did not wrestle the rest of the season.

So all this would've done was burn 3 shirts for no good reason. Tom Ryan approves of this plan.

EJ....don't let facts get in the way of what could be a good thread.

 

[cpn1sgm]

I think if you can redshirt kids, it makes you that much better. A year of hitting the weights and adjusting to college wrestling in the practice room is huge. Allowing them to acclimated to college lives and schedule is much easier thing a redshirt. Sometime you don't have a choice, but by doing it, Penn State is on pace to win another 4 titles in a row.

 

[El-Jefe]

EJ....don't let facts get in the way of what could be a good thread.

Yeah, you're right. Let's discuss whether or not Matt Brown would've beaten Gabe Dean.

 

[nitlion6]

Man, just think. Nico, jimmy, zain, zack, jason, hammond, bo, Matt brown, McIntosh and lawson. Of course wait a minute. Let's put Frankie Molinaro in at 41 and bump zain to 49. Since Bo is hurt put Quentin in at 74. No wait. Since we now have Quentin at 74, let's make Bo healthy and put him at 165.
Now wait a second. Instead of Nico, how about Jeff Prescott at 25? Jimmy at 33. Frankie Molinaro at 141, but like his senior year at 49. Zain at 149, but like this year. Jason at 157, but like this year. Instead of Hammond, I know. Either Glenn Pritzloff or maybe Andy Matter at 167. We don't need to worry about Bo being injured we can wrestle Matt at 74, Ed Ruth at 84 and either Mac or Q at 97.
Let's finish this team with Greg Haliday at Heavy.
Oh my God. We would have crushed them last year

 

[RoarLions1]

I prefer to look ahead. We have a great bunch of kids that are a collective product of their past, including a redshirt year for some. 2016 Big Ten's and the NCAA Tournament should be fun.

 

[nitlion6]

I prefer to look ahead. We have a great bunch of kids that are a collective product of their past, including a redshirt year for some. 2016 Big Ten's and the NCAA Tournament should be fun.

I was just playing along. When playing pretend I like to go all in. Just think about it for a second. Wouldn't you enjoy watching Andy Matter wrestle 165 for this team?

 

[RoarLions1]

I was just playing along. When playing pretend I like to go all in. Just think about it for a second. Wouldn't you enjoy watching Andy Matter wrestle 165 for this team?

Yeah, I enjoyed your post...got what you were doing...completely. Was more addressing the what-if, conjecture, speculation, and imo... looking in the wrong direction. So much to look forward to.

 

[PSU_Nut]

I think if you can redshirt kids, it makes you that much better. A year of hitting the weights and adjusting to college wrestling in the practice room is huge. Allowing them to acclimated to college lives and schedule is much easier thing a redshirt. Sometime you don't have a choice, but by doing it, Penn State is on pace to win another 4 titles in a row.

It a huge leap to assume BO would be wrestling at the level he is right now without the red shirt.

 

[tikk10]

Even with a healthy Bo, together with Zain, Nolf, and Nico, it's not clear because Bo and Nolf look significantly improved from last year. Nolf was bonusing at 50+% last year, and Bo's performance at the Scuffle up to the injury wasn't nearly so dominant as he's been this year. With Zain, it's difficult to say whether he'd have been this dominant last year because he didn't wrestle folk anywhere, but he'd likely have placed high at either 141 or 149. Seems clear though that Cael got it right with Nolf and Nickal, that the redshirt year did them a world of good.

 

[ejb25]

As happy as I was with Ohio State winning the National Championship *eyes roll*, with Hindsight, I believe Cael had the talent in the room to put up more points than OSU's 102 points.

And no, I don't disagree with Cael's decision. He obviously knows what he's doing. I'm just throwing a hypothetical opinion out there. And this is all based off Hindsight.

I will base my argument off some of the points in this article. http://www.blackshoediaries.com/201...hips-ohiostate-iowa-edindbor-missouri-cornell

We were behind OSU by 34.5 points. The article thinks Nico and Zain could have scored another 25 points on top of our team score. I believe Nolf would have placed at least 5th at 157 and gave us the 10 points to give us the Championship. Nolf beat Realbuto at the Scuffle and would have obviously challenged IMAR. And if we had a healthy Bo at 174 and moved Matt Brown to 184, that would have put us over the top easy.

 

[SRATH]

I think we could have won last year. That said, it would have made things a lot tougher this year. No Nico. Clearly the guys who redshirted last year used that time to great advantage. It makes a difference when you are not weighing in all the time, not dialing back your training for nationals etc. The present and the future looks bright.

 

[NEPAwolverine]

ejb,

Cael redshirted before winning his national titles
David Taylor redshirted before winning his national titles
Ed Ruth redshirted before winning his national titles
Quentin Wright redshirted before winning his national titles
Frank Molinaro redshirted before winning his national title
Matt Brown redshirted before winning his national title

See a pattern?


I think it's shortsighted to deprive a wrestler of a redshirt season. I really applaud and respect Cael for redshirting his wrestlers as much as possible. It benefits the wrestlers tremendously, and it really benefits the team overall. The Nolf, Zain, and Bo that you see this year are products of last year's redshirt year. you are trading year 1 of college for a year 5 seasoned wrestler. Cael, DT, ER, Q, Frank, and Matt all had their strongest years in year 5. I would never trade that for year 1.

Do you remember Cael's first year coaching? He decided early on, that he would redshirt the entire incoming class (including studs DT and ER), and also redshirt All Americans Wright and Jenkins. Right off the bat. The wrestlers benefit from that redshirt year.

Look where the team is now. The redshirt decisions have gotten us here. Second guessing last year's decisions, when you can SEE how it paid off now, is silly. And I really hate when people use the "retrospectoscope" to second guess decisions made in good faith. That's what lawyers and politicians do. ugh.

 

[nitlion6]

If I remember correctly Cael wanted Bubba to wrestle 149 that year and what pretty much made the decision that Bubba was leaving was when he weighed in @ 165 for an open tournament. Thus making 149 not doable that year.

 

[Cowbell Man]

ejb,

Cael redshirted before winning his national titles
David Taylor redshirted before winning his national titles
Ed Ruth redshirted before winning his national titles
Quentin Wright redshirted before winning his national titles
Frank Molinaro redshirted before winning his national title
Matt Brown redshirted before winning his national title

See a pattern?


I think it's shortsighted to deprive a wrestler of a redshirt season. I really applaud and respect Cael for redshirting his wrestlers as much as possible. It benefits the wrestlers tremendously, and it really benefits the team overall. The Nolf, Zain, and Bo that you see this year are products of last year's redshirt year. you are trading year 1 of college for a year 5 seasoned wrestler. Cael, DT, ER, Q, Frank, and Matt all had their strongest years in year 5. I would never trade that for year 1.

Do you remember Cael's first year coaching? He decided early on, that he would redshirt the entire incoming class (including studs DT and ER), and also redshirt All Americans Wright and Jenkins. Right off the bat. The wrestlers benefit from that redshirt year.

Look where the team is now. The redshirt decisions have gotten us here. Second guessing last year's decisions, when you can SEE how it paid off now, is silly. And I really hate when people use the "retrospectoscope" to second guess decisions made in good faith. That's what lawyers and politicians do. ugh.

And neither Nolf or Bo were ready to win a national title last year. They are now.

Conaway is better this year for his work at 125 and why not pull off Cory's shirt at the same time since that was the suggestion?

Cael had no quality reason to not redshirt guys he promises to make better by coming to PSU. He redshirts whenever he can.

 

[Cold Smoke]

I was just playing along. When playing pretend I like to go all in. Just think about it for a second. Wouldn't you enjoy watching Andy Matter wrestle 165 for this team?

Would love to see the wrestle-off between Matter and Taylor. Two takedown machines.

 

[NoVa Lion]

If I remember correctly Cael wanted Bubba to wrestle 149 that year and what pretty much made the decision that Bubba was leaving was when he weighed in @ 165 for an open tournament. Thus making 149 not doable that year.

That is 100% correct on Bubba. Missing weight for 157 and wrestling 165 (rules at the time meant he could not then wrestle at 149) was the final straw that got Bubba booted from the team.

 

[El-Jefe]

That plus Bubba tanking classes to become ineligible in order to force a shirt -- and bragging to the papers about doing so.

 

[zwick99]

Bo was injured at the Scuffle, withdrew, and did not wrestle the rest of the season.

So all this would've done was burn 3 shirts for no good reason. Tom Ryan approves of this plan.

Unless they won without him like they did the previous 4 years.

 

[ejb25]

I said in my post that Cael obviously knows what he was doing and I'm just a fan. And I'm not arguing what is best for an individual, which you present great points. I'm saying what could have been best for last years race at a Team championship strictly for one year.

Every coach in every sport has to weigh the risk of future assets vs current team success. And Cael decided to redshirt 4 potential starters eventhough he could have had another Team National Title last year. But by doing that he is setting himself up for another big potential title run.

And don't knock me using "hindsight", I know a Great Man who used "hindsight" to explain his actions. And he actually wasn't a lawyer even though his father wanted him to be.

ejb,

Cael redshirted before winning his national titles
David Taylor redshirted before winning his national titles
Ed Ruth redshirted before winning his national titles
Quentin Wright redshirted before winning his national titles
Frank Molinaro redshirted before winning his national title
Matt Brown redshirted before winning his national title

See a pattern?


I think it's shortsighted to deprive a wrestler of a redshirt season. I really applaud and respect Cael for redshirting his wrestlers as much as possible. It benefits the wrestlers tremendously, and it really benefits the team overall. The Nolf, Zain, and Bo that you see this year are products of last year's redshirt year. you are trading year 1 of college for a year 5 seasoned wrestler. Cael, DT, ER, Q, Frank, and Matt all had their strongest years in year 5. I would never trade that for year 1.

Do you remember Cael's first year coaching? He decided early on, that he would redshirt the entire incoming class (including studs DT and ER), and also redshirt All Americans Wright and Jenkins. Right off the bat. The wrestlers benefit from that redshirt year.

Look where the team is now. The redshirt decisions have gotten us here. Second guessing last year's decisions, when you can SEE how it paid off now, is silly. And I really hate when people use the "retrospectoscope" to second guess decisions made in good faith. That's what lawyers and politicians do. ugh.