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Devils' advocate

PSUranger

PSUranger

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Mar 11, 2014
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Curious to see if it is just me... Does anyone else think that sometimes the top man is simply riding and should be hit for stalling instead of the bottom guy? Often the bottom guy isn't stalling he is simply overmatched and cannot do anything? I can't remember the last time I saw the top man hit.

I think there needs to be more stalling calls against the top wrestler. There are times when the bottom guy is simply being dominated and gets hit for stalling. I once looked up to the ref during a match and said "I'm not stalling sir, I just can't do anything." I think anyone that has been overmatched understands this. I sometimes get frustrated with fans (many of whom may never have wrestled) screaming for stalling on the bottom when the he is just be held down.

Sorry that was so badly fragmented.
 
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PSUranger said:
Curious to see if it is just me... Does anyone else think that sometimes the top man is simply riding and should be hit for stalling instead of the bottom guy? Often the bottom guy isn't stalling he is simply overmatched and cannot do anything? I can't remember the last time I saw the top man hit.

I think there needs to be more stalling calls against the top wrestler. There are times when the bottom guy is simply being dominated and gets hit for stalling. I once looked up to the ref during a match and said "I'm not stalling sir, I just can't do anything." I think anyone that has been overmatched understands this. I sometimes get frustrated with fans (many of whom may never have wrestled) screaming for stalling on the bottom when the he is just be held down.

Sorry that was so badly fragmented.
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Both are true. Refs let top get away far too much with parallel rides and do-nothing spiral rides, for example. A lot of guys on bottom also need to be reminded to get out of there. Gwiz earned the top stall on Nelson by being active on bottom.
 
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El-Jefe said:
Both are true. Refs let top get away far too much with parallel rides and do-nothing spiral rides, for example. A lot of guys on bottom also need to be reminded to get out of there. Gwiz earned the top stall on Nelson by being active on bottom.
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E-J, I have to argue that Nelson earned that (and others) all by himself.
 
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Amen brothers! I think "riding" without turning is a problem for NCAA wrestling, along with locking up collar ties and heavy hands with no real offense for the first three minutes. I have been meaning to compile total riding time and total back points for each team, then you could tell who the culprits are. If your riding time is very high and your back points are low relative to your peers then you are stall riding.

I have two daughters who, now that they are older, enjoy NCAA football but say wrestling is "boring". Why do I like it so much? yada, yada, yada. But sometimes they are right with these TB-2, 2-1 matches.

A good friend of mine wrestled D1 in college and his proposal would be to have a 30 second clock, once you are on top if you don't score any back points in 30 seconds you go back to neutral. The bottom guy doesn't get an escape point. He also suggested 3 points for a takedown, and 3 points for a reversal. Right now a reversal isn't much better than an escape, so there is no incentive but the "rolling around" scrambles can be so exciting. I agree the bottom guy is sometimes so overmatched he can't get out but the top guy doesn't turn him once.
 
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midniteride said:
E-J, I have to argue that Nelson earned that (and others) all by himself.
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No doubt Nelson earned it -- just like he earned 4 years' worth of top stall calls that weren't made.

Didn't actually get the call until Gwiz forced the ref's hand.
 
The lack of action from top has been a complaint of mine for years.
It actually was worse in the late 70s early 80s. The small to mid weight guys if they chose would lock figure 4 around waste and work the arms with very little intent to score.
It was used to beat the guy up and build up riding time. It was also boring.
Speaking about riding,the announcers today I thought missed one obvious great top guy when they didn't mention Zane.
 
Callthestall said:
The lack of action from top has been a complaint of mine for years.
It actually was worse in the late 70s early 80s. The small to mid weight guys if they chose would lock figure 4 around waste and work the arms with very little intent to score.
It was used to beat the guy up and build up riding time. It was also boring.
Speaking about riding,the announcers today I thought missed one obvious great top guy when they didn't mention Zane.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the guy from Titanic?? :)
 
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Callthestall said:
The lack of action from top has been a complaint of mine for years.
It actually was worse in the late 70s early 80s. The small to mid weight guys if they chose would lock figure 4 around waste and work the arms with very little intent to score.
It was used to beat the guy up and build up riding time. It was also boring.
Speaking about riding,the announcers today I thought missed one obvious great top guy when they didn't mention Zane.
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They said Retherford.

Also, there should never be stalling if it is just overmatched. However, if you’re overmatched you should be trying to work off your belly and not simply being defensive.
 
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psualt said:
They said Retherford.

Also, there should never be stalling if it is just overmatched. However, if you’re overmatched you should be trying to work off your belly and not simply being defensive.
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My bad. I didn't hear them mention Zane.
One of the toughest high school kid I ever saw on top was Chris Kwortnick.
 
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Callthestall said:
My bad. I didn't hear them mention Zane.
One of the toughest high school kid I ever saw on top was Chris Kwortnick.
Click to expand...

"His name is LEE G@d D@mmit!"................Come on you old farts......The great Don Cheadle in a classic out-take of Rush Hour 2...…...when the great Chris Tucker Kept calling Jackie Chan's character "Jackie" instead of Lee....."We would like to see that...right Jackie"

ie……."His name is Zain G@d D@mmit" :)

OK....I give up.....more beer needed :)
 
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At a minimum I would like to see it changed so that riding time can only be earned establishing control via a takedown or reversal. No more getting riding time when the wrestler starts the period on top.
 
Anything that can increase activity and scoring makes wrestling more exciting to the casual fan, which in turn would help grow the sport. That said holding someone to the mat for many minutes is not an easy task (think Zain against Stieber) and requires skill and determination.
 
Lyons212 said:
At a minimum I would like to see it changed so that riding time can only be earned establishing control via a takedown or reversal. No more getting riding time when the wrestler starts the period on top.
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A start, but that doesn't help the first period early takedown with 2:30+ of unproductive riding.

I'd like to see RT not awarded until NF points are awarded.
 
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Theres no way to control this in the first period, but in the 2nd and 3rd shouldnt the guy who has CHOICE of position be under more scrutiny than the other? If Billy chooses bottom and lay there like a slug then by all means he should be dinged.
 
El-Jefe said:
Kwortnik was the last guy anyone wanted to face then in HS.
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I saw him face Smith from Northampton who was undefeated in finals. He was working double arm bars. It was like watching MMA and a submission hold was being applied. I think Smith screamed out 3 times
 
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Unbiased_football_fan said:
Amen brothers! I think "riding" without turning is a problem for NCAA wrestling, along with locking up collar ties and heavy hands with no real offense for the first three minutes. I have been meaning to compile total riding time and total back points for each team, then you could tell who the culprits are. If your riding time is very high and your back points are low relative to your peers then you are stall riding.

I have two daughters who, now that they are older, enjoy NCAA football but say wrestling is "boring". Why do I like it so much? yada, yada, yada. But sometimes they are right with these TB-2, 2-1 matches.

A good friend of mine wrestled D1 in college and his proposal would be to have a 30 second clock, once you are on top if you don't score any back points in 30 seconds you go back to neutral. The bottom guy doesn't get an escape point. He also suggested 3 points for a takedown, and 3 points for a reversal. Right now a reversal isn't much better than an escape, so there is no incentive but the "rolling around" scrambles can be so exciting. I agree the bottom guy is sometimes so overmatched he can't get out but the top guy doesn't turn him once.
Click to expand...
my fear is that would turn into a waste of 30 seconds as the bottom guy just hangs on and after 10 seconds the top guy does the same...
 
Unbiased_football_fan said:
A good friend of mine wrestled D1 in college and his proposal would be to have a 30 second clock, once you are on top if you don't score any back points in 30 seconds you go back to neutral. The bottom guy doesn't get an escape point. He also suggested 3 points for a takedown, and 3 points for a reversal. Right now a reversal isn't much better than an escape, so there is no incentive but the "rolling around" scrambles can be so exciting. I agree the bottom guy is sometimes so overmatched he can't get out but the top guy doesn't turn him once.
Click to expand...

I'd be hugely in favor of the 30 second clock and changing takedowns and reversals to 3 points each. I'd just amend the 30 second clock rule to allow action to continue if a pinning combination were engaged at expiration.
 
Of course top stalling is a problem.

That's why there's nothing worse than watching a Tony Nelson match.

On the other hand, I doubt most PSU fans would have been happy if the ref had been more aggressive with one of our wrestlers from roughly the 1:07 mark to 0:29 in the second period.

 
Conewago said:
Of course top stalling is a problem.

That's why there's nothing worse than watching a Tony Nelson match.

On the other hand, I doubt most PSU fans would have been happy if the ref had been more aggressive with one of our wrestlers from roughly the 1:07 mark to 0:29 in the second period.

View embedded media
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LOL at 37-35 seconds, how was this control??
 
Chickenman Testa said:
When I met @smalls103 in a bar in Austin, I told him the 2 guys I really remember following when I was younger were Jack Cuvo and Chris Kwortnik.

When I mentioned Kwortnik, he laughed a little in appreciation for that dude.

Pennsylvania wrestling - that’s what we do
Click to expand...
Kwortnik was like a bigger Zain, with somewhat less surgical precision and a whole lot less regard for his opponents.
 
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Chickenman Testa said:
When I met @smalls103 in a bar in Austin, I told him the 2 guys I really remember following when I was younger were Jack Cuvo and Chris Kwortnik.

When I mentioned Kwortnik, he laughed a little in appreciation for that dude.

Pennsylvania wrestling - that’s what we do
Click to expand...
You mentioned 2 total opposites.
Cuvo was the best high school wrestler I ever saw from his feet. He would Tech guys in 1st period.. He had a motor that was unbelievable. He was All State in cross country. Just couldn't beat Bonomo his first 2 years at Nationals.
Kwortnick looked like school geek with his glasses on. On the mat he was going to punish you until you wanted to be pin.
 
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Personally I don't like some of the ideas mentioned in this thread to prevent top stalling. I actually recognize the value of beating your opponent to a bloody pulp from the top position and wouldn't want the NCAA to discourage it by making neutral wrestling more effective from the perspective of scoring a quick point. The answer is for the refs to actually start calling it when appropriate. We all know that Nick Lee, Cenzo, Hall, et al are not stalling on the top and we all know what a parallel ride or a leg ride with little intention or likelihood of a turn looks like. So do the refs, call it appropriately and they wouldn't have this issue. I'm also not a huge fan of the stalling rules along the edge of a mat. The ref ought to be able to tell when someone is stalling without tagging someone for stepping off the mat once in a 7 minute dual (Nevills on Sunday comes to mind).
 
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billrag said:
we all know what a parallel ride or a leg ride with little intention or likelihood of a turn looks like. So do the refs, call it appropriately and they wouldn't have this issue.
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I hear you but how many years do we wait for the refs to call it appropriately, before we conclude it isn't gonna happen?

Seems we're closer to counting this in decades, than to having refs enforce top stalling as described.
 
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It is decades, as E-J says, and it didn't happen overnight. Thing is, even back in the 70's, when my fanship started, while stalling was called more often, folks were still complaining, so not much has changed.

What I see is pretty much party-line stuff. Much complaining by team A fans about team B wrestlers, team B fans complaining about team C wrestlers, and team C fans complaining about team A wrestlers. And around and around and around we go.

I don't believe there's a rule change possible that will change anything.
 
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It is not the rule as written, it's the rule as applied. Don't forget, if the rules get changed, be prepared to accept the unintended consequences.
 
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El-Jefe said:
I hear you but how many years do we wait for the refs to call it appropriately, before we conclude it isn't gonna happen?

Seems we're closer to counting this in decades, than to having refs enforce top stalling as described.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

I do not like picking on one of our guys for an example, but RBY spent the last 1:10 minutes of the 2nd period with Gross making no effort to break down his opponent - by rule, that is stalling. He didn't even spiral ride, he FEIGNED a spiral ride, with his arms hanging on either sides, and his trapping Gross's ankle the only thing stopping the latter from escaping. And the only reason the ref called stalling at all was because of the recent rule change to FORCE refs to make a 5 count for hanging on the ankles. I'm sure Gross would have received such an advantage if he had been on top himself.

The fact that they even had to add that 5 count rule speaks volumes!

They don't call it when Tony Nelson stalled on top ..... they don't call it when one of our guys does it .... they didn't call it when every single Hawkeye spiral-stalled against us in the 2015 dual meet at BJC...

IT IS IN THE RULE BOOK that top stalling must be called. And top stalling is very clearly defined. It's been that way for YEARS. But refs simply aren't calling it. I don't know what to say.

Incidentally, my perception is that top stalling was more vigorously enforced in the 1990s, but, I could be wrong.
 
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RoarLions1 said:
It is decades, as E-J says, and it didn't happen overnight. Thing is, even back in the 70's, when my fanship started, while stalling was called more often, folks were still complaining, so not much has changed.

What I see is pretty much party-line stuff. Much complaining by team A fans about team B wrestlers, team B fans complaining about team C wrestlers, and team C fans complaining about team A wrestlers. And around and around and around we go.

I don't believe there's a rule change possible that will change anything.
Click to expand...

I am much younger than you, Roar. When I watch matches on YouTube from the 1980s, I generally much prefer the way they called stalling. I think it was objectively closer to the actual meaning of the rules, and above all, to the spirit of the sport of wrestling.

With that said, Dan Mayo was NOT stalling against Royce Alger in 1988, imo!!! :)
 
RoarLions1 said:
It is decades, as E-J says, and it didn't happen overnight. Thing is, even back in the 70's, when my fanship started, while stalling was called more often, folks were still complaining, so not much has changed.

What I see is pretty much party-line stuff. Much complaining by team A fans about team B wrestlers, team B fans complaining about team C wrestlers, and team C fans complaining about team A wrestlers. And around and around and around we go.

I don't believe there's a rule change possible that will change anything.
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As I mentioned before, the stopped the figure 4 across the waste in the 1980s.
They have now intiated 5 second rule on leg.
The only other thing I can think of is taking away vining down guys leg. It would force top man to go to side.
 
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