He is either hurt and nobody is saying anything or he has a real effort issue. He has a great shot, no doubt about it, but his defense and effort on the defensive end is atrocious. Not just last night, but the entire series. Basically like a home run hitter in baseball that has a .220 average and strike outs all the time. And every time they showed him on the bench, he is gasping for air. He couldn't create any shots for anybody else, essentially just would park himself somewhere in the offensive zone and wait for somebody else to create an shot for him.
Discussion on Ovechkin
- Thread starter Cletus11
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Everybody's hurt this time of year. The Kadri hit got him lower body but his wheels didn't seem that bad. Production wise, he had a good, not great series and I think he's going to unjustly be singled out for the result here.
This outcome came down to two things
1 - Fleury was the best player in the series...the Caps did everything needed to generate offense through 6 games to have that thing decided but Fleury simply denied them.
2 - Pens have the intangibles to make up for their lineup deficiencies, and they were on full display in Game 7. Caps are a mentally fragile organization. When 2 teams are so close on paper in a 1 game, anything can happen situation, you look to the intangibles. There is no rhyme or reason for the way the Caps fizzled in a game where their best shot at a Cup run ever was on the line. Sure the Pens were playing good last night, but the Caps turned timid, slow and completely unsure of themselves.
I think Ovie's leadership can rightfully be questioned but not necessarily his effort. Some players - Jagr for most of his career comes to mind - are not suited for wearing the "C" even if they're the most important player on their roster. Ovie is in the same mold. I think the load on his shoulders is wearing him more than anything else.
Lately, I don't really share the disdain for Ovie that a lot of Pens fans feel. I think the Caps' issues are culture based from the ownership on down.
This outcome came down to two things
1 - Fleury was the best player in the series...the Caps did everything needed to generate offense through 6 games to have that thing decided but Fleury simply denied them.
2 - Pens have the intangibles to make up for their lineup deficiencies, and they were on full display in Game 7. Caps are a mentally fragile organization. When 2 teams are so close on paper in a 1 game, anything can happen situation, you look to the intangibles. There is no rhyme or reason for the way the Caps fizzled in a game where their best shot at a Cup run ever was on the line. Sure the Pens were playing good last night, but the Caps turned timid, slow and completely unsure of themselves.
I think Ovie's leadership can rightfully be questioned but not necessarily his effort. Some players - Jagr for most of his career comes to mind - are not suited for wearing the "C" even if they're the most important player on their roster. Ovie is in the same mold. I think the load on his shoulders is wearing him more than anything else.
Lately, I don't really share the disdain for Ovie that a lot of Pens fans feel. I think the Caps' issues are culture based from the ownership on down.
The Caps tried to knock Crosby out of the series, when he came back they knew they were toast.
Pens were the better team (i am not a Pens fan, just a general hockey fan), no doubt. I was amazed at how they are always in the correct position on the ice. They have extremely smart players and great coaching, that was obvious this series. And MAF won the series, he outplayed Holtby plain and simple.
The problem I have with Ovechkin is he creates zero offense for anybody else and is a liability on defense. He was shown in this series really to be a one trick pony, a 'stand still' shooter only. I don't dislike the guy, I just think this series showed that he is on the downside of his career and the Caps have to figure out what they want to do moving forward with him.
The problem I have with Ovechkin is he creates zero offense for anybody else and is a liability on defense. He was shown in this series really to be a one trick pony, a 'stand still' shooter only. I don't dislike the guy, I just think this series showed that he is on the downside of his career and the Caps have to figure out what they want to do moving forward with him.
Exactly right.
Ovechkin is clearly on the decline. He'll be 32 in September. He has a lot of high mileage and looks like he's skating in cement. He still has the fearsome shot - but that is about all he has.
Ovie is the perfect guy for the new Vegas team. Caps should trade him there and get whatever they can. Goal scorer and team face for a new franchise even if he is getting up in age. Gives them some value right off the start with some star power to get some TV games. Plus he looks like he would love living in Vegas.
I was shocked at how bad Ovie was this series. He is definitely older and on the downward slide. 12 yrs of NHL playing takes its toll on the body. And his style of rough physical play makes it worse. He took a lot of cheap shots at people all his career which means people take their revenge on him when they can. Never liked the dirty SOB but it was obvious he had great talent, and now will be glad when he is gone.
Malkin was also a disappointment. He is fantastic with the puck and is very strong in close Didn't seem to be very aggressive this play off run. Perhaps that is coaching, Pen's style is quick passing, not individual attacks.
Malkin was also a disappointment. He is fantastic with the puck and is very strong in close Didn't seem to be very aggressive this play off run. Perhaps that is coaching, Pen's style is quick passing, not individual attacks.
Ovechkin is what he is: a potent offensive force who never learned to play defense, because he never had to. When he was on the ice, the other team concentrated on stopping him and not scoring themselves. Of course, that all changed once he was in the NHL for a few years, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks. If some coach had held his feet to the fire when he was younger, and forced him to be more well-rounded, it would have done him a world of good, but it never happened because he was always bigger than the coach.
Ovy's basically out of shape right now, though. I don't think he's hurt; his ability to absorb punishment and not get seriously injured is as legendary as his goal-scoring. But right now he is about 20 lbs overweight, and looks every bit of it.
It's almost unfair to pin this loss on him, yet again. Long time hockey folks know that wingers are never centerpieces of a team in the same way that centers or #1 defensemen are. Wingers can't control the pace of a game, and wingers are limited to their side of ice, only down to the top of the circles in their own end. They cannot take over a game on just one side of the rink.
The player who really hurt the Caps was Backstrom. He's a wonderful talent, but he's temperamentally better suited to be a #2 center on a strong team, not a #1 guy. Like Ron Francis of the old Pens, he'd be a fabulous #2 center and would do well without the spotlight on him all the time. As it stands, he's just not enough of a physical presence to be a true #1 center in today's NHL.
Ovy's basically out of shape right now, though. I don't think he's hurt; his ability to absorb punishment and not get seriously injured is as legendary as his goal-scoring. But right now he is about 20 lbs overweight, and looks every bit of it.
It's almost unfair to pin this loss on him, yet again. Long time hockey folks know that wingers are never centerpieces of a team in the same way that centers or #1 defensemen are. Wingers can't control the pace of a game, and wingers are limited to their side of ice, only down to the top of the circles in their own end. They cannot take over a game on just one side of the rink.
The player who really hurt the Caps was Backstrom. He's a wonderful talent, but he's temperamentally better suited to be a #2 center on a strong team, not a #1 guy. Like Ron Francis of the old Pens, he'd be a fabulous #2 center and would do well without the spotlight on him all the time. As it stands, he's just not enough of a physical presence to be a true #1 center in today's NHL.
You people must have watched a different series than me. Ovie has a reputation of being a selfish player just like Crosby is a crybaby. When Crosby got injured, Ovie was backchecking hard to the net and on multiple occasions last night he broke up Pittsburgh scoring chances by backchecking. He plays hard and rarely takes a shift off. He is physical and plays best when he is on the edge. He conserves energy as he plays almost two minutes of the power play. He is still a shoot first player, but is a decent passer. He actually overpassed last night and gave up several scoring chances. Is he a leader? I'm not sure about that. I would have given Williams the C with his experience, effort, and ability to raise his game when it counts, but he didn't last night.
By the way, I'm no Ovie fan but can't question the guy's effort. And he sacrificed scoring when Dale Hunter was the coach.
He is certainly less frustrating to watch than Malkin at times. Wish Malkin matched his effort each shift.
By the way, did anybody else notice how well Sheary played last night. Usually if you blow on him, he falls over, but last night, he was tough to knock down.
By the way, I'm no Ovie fan but can't question the guy's effort. And he sacrificed scoring when Dale Hunter was the coach.
He is certainly less frustrating to watch than Malkin at times. Wish Malkin matched his effort each shift.
By the way, did anybody else notice how well Sheary played last night. Usually if you blow on him, he falls over, but last night, he was tough to knock down.
Yeah, umm....Malkin is leading the NHL playoffs in scoring. So there's that.
http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics
Yes, he plays great when motivated. Right now he is motivated. That said Spinnmeister is not only wrong, he is very wrong.
Ovie was better for the Caps in this series than Malkin was for the Pens. Of course, every microscopic action or inaction will be over-analyzed but I do think Ovie has matured as a player. He's still not a complete two way forward (although he's better than he once was by a country mile) but that's not really what he's being paid to be. Most of that club's issues are between their ears moreso than on the ice. They don't have "IT" to be a clutch performer. Usually that only comes from being through it all and winning it all.
In a game like last night though it needs to be pointed out - Backstrom had 0 shots; Kuznetsov had 2 shots; the D played unpoised and sloppy. Of the team's issues in not getting it done, I'd put Ovie down the list.
Crosby had a horrible game 6 but was excellent all around last night. Players and teams have off nights.
In the NHL playoffs, you need secondary scoring. Pens got it last night, Caps didn't.
Ovy was responsible for both of the Pen's goals last night. He didn't hustle to pick up Rust, leading to the first goal, and he lost the puck on the the second goal. His defensive effort was what it always is: half-hearted. His lack of speed didn't help, either.
That's the game I saw. There is no defending Ovy on either of the Pens' goals last night. And really, him spending 2 minutes on the ice for every power play is stupidity, not character. It might not be all his idea, but it's still stupid.
That's the game I saw. There is no defending Ovy on either of the Pens' goals last night. And really, him spending 2 minutes on the ice for every power play is stupidity, not character. It might not be all his idea, but it's still stupid.
Yeah I thought that "Malkin also a disappointment" line was a head-scratcher as well.
Here's the problem with Ovie going forward: $9 million per year. That is a millstone around the neck of the Caps as they shed players for next year. Trading Ovie is extremely difficult from a marketing and contract perspective and if the desire is to restructure the team during the off-season he presents a major hurdle for these reasons.
It was telling that Ovie was dropped to the third line and that Trotz refused to comment on his play last night at the presser. The "great 8" was the "late 8" on the two pens goals. The NHL network was all over him last night for the lack of effort on the Rust goal, which unquestionably was pivotal in the game.
It was telling that Ovie was dropped to the third line and that Trotz refused to comment on his play last night at the presser. The "great 8" was the "late 8" on the two pens goals. The NHL network was all over him last night for the lack of effort on the Rust goal, which unquestionably was pivotal in the game.
Malkin leads the playoffs in assists and points. He's had a great playoffs this year (although he still takes too many dumb penalties).
edit: sorry, bessmoney beat me to this point.
Ovie's salary isn't necessary an issue. It's more or less market value considering his goal production looking at the life of that contract, although that dipped this year. The problem is that figure is tied up into a position that is very difficult to build a team around. I think if you asked all 30 NHL GMs how to build a team, none of them will respond "around the wing".
This may be a bit of the issue for Caps in terms of mentality in how they've addressed their roster and coaching the past 10 years. Wings are supporting cast members on a hockey team but it's difficult for those supports to carry a team to a championship.
On paper, the Caps have decent depth down the middle - Backstrom, Kuznetzov, Eller and Beagle are probably among the best in the league for a center unit. But the flow of success still goes through Ovie. That's a disjointed mindset for a hockey team and one that's almost set up to fail....and that's not really Ovie's fault.
Here's the thing. I can't see the whole ice surface on the tv just like I can't see the whole football field on tv. Often it looks like one player was at fault, when another player missed an assignment. If you look at the Pens in game 6, when their defense pinched, they got caught. Happened a few times last night, but most times, a forward was there. In game 6, it could be that the forward was to blame when it looked like the defenseman was to blame.
Was it Ovie's responsibilty to backcheck Rust? I have no idea, but I do know he was backchecking. So was he taking some shifts off and others not? Possible, but not sure. What I do know if that if it looks your teammate will get control of the puck, a forward usually bolts. That is exactly what the Pens do with their stretch passes. Washington does the same. Rust's goal was on turnover with Ovie along the boards and the puck bounced away from him. The other forwards were heading up ice when it looked liked he was going to get the puck. 2 was the closest player to Rust, so I would say it more his fault than Ovie's, but he took Crosby who was on a 2 vs. 1 so can't really blame him. It was a break down off a turnover. Hornqvist was covered and play looked harmless until it caught Holtby off guard.
I agree that about the power play, but he is still the best player and isn't the first player to do it. It was controversial when they moved him to the point on the power play so he could play the entire PP. The Pens first unit usually plays over a minute and I'll seen them on the ice for at least 1:30 at times.
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In certain situations, you'll see the Pens first PP unit on the ice for a long period of time, but usually it's not the case. Letang stays out there the longest (on the rare occasion when he isn't hurt), but the first unit is hardly ever out there for more than a minute. Sullivan's approach is to de-emphasize the individuals in this situation. Hell, in every situation. He's a fantastic coach.
Ovy's not classically responsible for the winger on that side, for the Rust goal. Usually it would be the defenseman on that side. But the play had broken down and when Cole kept the puck in and fed it to Crosby, Ovy should have been looking for a man to cover. Crosby moved into the middle, sort of, but Rust was there and Ovy should have picked him up. He just doesn't have developed defensive instincts, however. His classic responsibility on that play is covering the point man, Cole, but given the way the play was developing he needed to look and see who else was around (Rust).
Easier said by me than done, but I guarantee you that other players in that predicament would have picked up Rust a lot sooner.
Ovy's not classically responsible for the winger on that side, for the Rust goal. Usually it would be the defenseman on that side. But the play had broken down and when Cole kept the puck in and fed it to Crosby, Ovy should have been looking for a man to cover. Crosby moved into the middle, sort of, but Rust was there and Ovy should have picked him up. He just doesn't have developed defensive instincts, however. His classic responsibility on that play is covering the point man, Cole, but given the way the play was developing he needed to look and see who else was around (Rust).
Easier said by me than done, but I guarantee you that other players in that predicament would have picked up Rust a lot sooner.
When The Caps took Crosby out, Malkin picked up his play! I am NOT a Crosby or Malkin fan, or Pens for that matter. BUT I have been impressed with Malkin this playoffs. He is playing 'bigger' and looks to have picked up some speed. Still don't want him in a Flyer's sweater, but he has impressed me so far.
I just watched the video. Rust was caught up with the Caps defenceman along the boards. The defensemen on that side went to Crosby leaving Rust as the trailer. There was quite a bit of distance between Ovie who was up high along the boards and Rust who came from the lower boards. With the puck coming to Ovie and couldn't control it, Cole kept it in at the line and the Washington forward overskated the puck allowing Cole to make a play. I don't think Ovie could have caught Rust, but that is a difference on opinion. Ovie did hesitate, but the puck looked to be clearing the zone and two other Washington forwards were already by center ice.
Good play by Cole and the Pens forwards.
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I think we agree. 9 mill for an aging winger who is average at best on defense is not the market in today's hockey.
I'm a Pens fan and used to despise Ovie. I saw a special on him on the NHL Network and actually started to like him. I was a little pissed with his chop to the head to Sid on the "play" in game three, but I'm over it. Ovie used to put the fear of God in me every time he touched the puck, but now I only fear him on the PP. As a Pen's fan in this series I feared Kuznetsov and Oshie the most. From the sounds of it the Caps will look much different next year and may drop a few notches in the pecking order in the East.
Good analogy re Ovechkin being a home run hitter with a .220 batting average. Anybody that compares Ovechkin to Crosby "star-wise" is nuts. Frankly, Malkin is more valuable than Ovie.
Malkin can't keep the puck on his stick, given the physical strength he has his ability to create is limited.
Obie has his whole reputation on his great onetimer shot....he was demoted to the third line for obvious reasons.
Calling Sid a crybaby is ridiculous and is a false narrative to try to somehow degrade one of (if not the best) player in the NHL. No one takes more punishment than Sid, watch him in the slot...2guys 6 foot 3 taking turns cross checking him and drawing the defense. They complain about him because they have no answer so let's make something up.
Obie has his whole reputation on his great onetimer shot....he was demoted to the third line for obvious reasons.
Calling Sid a crybaby is ridiculous and is a false narrative to try to somehow degrade one of (if not the best) player in the NHL. No one takes more punishment than Sid, watch him in the slot...2guys 6 foot 3 taking turns cross checking him and drawing the defense. They complain about him because they have no answer so let's make something up.
I used to dislike Ovy at one time, but I'm past that. I'm not particularly a fan of the way he approaches the game, but he typically says the right things and it seems to me that Sid respects him, so given that, there's no reason that I should not respect him, as well.
There's definitely something wrong with that Caps' team, though. You can see it in their eyes when they are behind. They just don't expect to win if they are losing.
There's definitely something wrong with that Caps' team, though. You can see it in their eyes when they are behind. They just don't expect to win if they are losing.
It's always something. Everybody's hurting this time of year. Hornqvist is playing on one foot. Dumoulin's got something badly pulled or broken. Both Sheary and Crosby were concussed. Half of the Pens' D have broken feet. If you are too hurt to play well, then don't play. And if you do play, don't use it as an excuse afterwards. I note that Ovechkin himself has not used this injury as an excuse, but rather, it's coming from the team. That, right there, tells you all you need to know about their inability to get out of the second round. The organization looks for every excuse it can.
I give Ovy credit for not creating excuses for himself. Maybe he isn't the problem.
I give Ovy credit for not creating excuses for himself. Maybe he isn't the problem.
Melrose said after the game, if Ovetchin and Crosby switched teams, the Caps would have won
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Yep Malkin used to skate around with the puck, draw people to him, and either score or pass to someone wide open. Now he still has a great shot and thus the points but he doesn't play the same as he used to. Like I said, maybe that is coaching. Last power play, he had 7-8 touches, never took a shot and never skated more than a few feet with the puck. He still an awesome player but his style has changed from what it was. Seems he is more of a sniper now.
All of those reckless hits he dished out (and took) in his 20's were bound to take a toll on his body. No doubt he's still a physical presence, but he's now on the wrong side of 30. Comparison to Jagr was spot on...68 was never C material (yet still thrived) and neither is 8.
Disagree, because they were great in games 5 and 6, and I am a huge fan of the Pens and Sid.
Caps need to clean house. It ain't working and hasn't for years. Ovie is the core of the issue. They dropped him to third line. What more do you need to know. Presidents Cup means zippo in the NHL. Holtby is not a money Goalie. Fluery is.
The Ducks are the same out west. They never should have gotten past the Oilers. Game 5 tying goal should never have been allowed. Preds are an 8th seed and should beat them as Gibson in goal is very shaky.
Pens and Preds will be entertaining! Country Western will be on full display opposite the Cavs and Warriors rap.
The Ducks are the same out west. They never should have gotten past the Oilers. Game 5 tying goal should never have been allowed. Preds are an 8th seed and should beat them as Gibson in goal is very shaky.
Pens and Preds will be entertaining! Country Western will be on full display opposite the Cavs and Warriors rap.
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