DT depth concerns, last 9 games

[CaryPSU]

If my calculations are correct, below are scholarship DTs:

Givens

Hansard

Windsor

Shelton

Culpepper

Barber

Mustipher

Hawkins

Jordan

Thorpe

Did I miss anyone?


Of these, who can we realistically expect to see valuable PT, the remaining 8(hopefully 9) games?


Givens - YES

Hansard - Maybe? Where has he been? Is he hurt?

Windsor - YES

Shelton - YES

Culpepper - assuming RS

Barber - haven’t seen him play a meaningful down

Mustipher - Assuming RS from here out?

Hawkins - assuming RS

Jordan - Yes, But injury-prone?

Thorpe - Yes, But very green

My question is: what do we expect the 3 deep to be from here on out?

We’re kinda scary-thin, with experienced bodies, at this position.

On the flip side, EVERYONE is back in ‘19.

 

[Ranger Dan]

It’s not just the numbers, but the size... we’ve recruited some decently sized guys recently, but most DTs were 250 or maybe 275 in high school and you know that isn’t all good weight.

 

[blion72]

If my calculations are correct, below are scholarship DTs:

Givens

Hansard

Windsor

Shelton

Culpepper

Barber

Mustipher

Hawkins

Jordan

Thorpe

Did I miss anyone?


Of these, who can we realistically expect to see valuable PT, the remaining 8(hopefully 9) games?


Givens - YES

Hansard - Maybe? Where has he been? Is he hurt?

Windsor - YES

Shelton - YES

Culpepper - assuming RS

Barber - haven’t seen him play a meaningful down

Mustipher - Assuming RS from here out?

Hawkins - assuming RS

Jordan - Yes, But injury-prone?

Thorpe - Yes, But very green

My question is: what do we expect the 3 deep to be from here on out?

We’re kinda scary-thin, with experienced bodies, at this position.

On the flip side, EVERYONE is back in ‘19.

this position has quality depth issues. nobody that has the ability to help now would be redshirted. you need to reserve red shirts for players totally not ready to play or injured so bad that they cannot impact this year. we still may not have any players on the roster in the "war daddy" category.

 

[sluggo72]

this position has quality depth issues. nobody that has the ability to help now would be redshirted. you need to reserve red shirts for players totally not ready to play or injured so bad that they cannot impact this year. we still may not have any players on the roster in the "war daddy" category.

So you don't put CJ Thorpe in the war daddy catagory

 

[lw37]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mustipher not RS.

 

[psualt]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mustipher not RS.

Pretty sure it was posted that Franklin said he is redshirting.

 

[SUPERTODD]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Mustipher not RS.

I was very suprised to see him not play against O$U. Assuming he was not hurt it was a bad decision.

 

[psualt]

It’s not just the numbers, but the size... we’ve recruited some decently sized guys recently, but most DTs were 250 or maybe 275 in high school and you know that isn’t all good weight.

Or the KG lb/de at 240ish. If you would have told me back then he would be our best DT in 2018 I wouldn’t have expected it.

 

[sluggo72]

is the reason we have a 'hole' in the DT rotation because we took a JC kid (Tyrell Chavis) as opposed to a HS kid? That HS kid would be either a Redshirt Soph or Junior by now.
With CJF recruiting ability he could have flipped a Jerome Johnson to PSU and we would be good to go. https://iuhoosiers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=10164

lets face it, for the amount of snaps Chavis took his first year, I am sure we could have gotten by without him ( and thus being able to R/S and HS kid is the point), and If you look Johnson's production as a RS Frosh and Chavis are about the same, except now Indiana has him for this season and 2 more, thus filling our hole.

 

[HazletonLion]

I am not a fan of red shirting, could have been the it factor last week, and to add the good ones opt for the NFL their junior year anyway.

 

[danvillenit]

Maybe the players who didn’t play are not ready to play. Our tired regulars may still be a better option than a young guy. I’ll assume the coach knows better

 

[GregInPitt]

is the reason we have a 'hole' in the DT rotation because we took a JC kid (Tyrell Chavis) as opposed to a HS kid? That HS kid would be either a Redshirt Soph or Junior by now.
With CJF recruiting ability he could have flipped a Jerome Johnson to PSU and we would be good to go. https://iuhoosiers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=10164

lets face it, for the amount of snaps Chavis took his first year, I am sure we could have gotten by without him ( and thus being able to R/S and HS kid is the point), and If you look Johnson's production as a RS Frosh and Chavis are about the same, except now Indiana has him for this season and 2 more, thus filling our hole.

CJF took Chavis to try and solve DT depth for 2016 and 2017, and Chavis was a very good 3rd DT in 2017. The current DT depth and talent issue is mainly due to the lack of top DT talent in 2015 and 2016 classes. In 2015 there was only Givens (a DE at that time) and Windsor, who was a late addition to the class and the lowest rated player in the class according to 247. It's great that Givens developed into a very good DT and the Windsor is starting, but there was no top DT talent in that class.

The 2014 class could have helped this year as those players could be redshirt seniors for 2018. But the only high school DT in that class, Antoine White, didn't last long in the program and the other DT was a JC player (Tarow Barney).

The staff went hard after DT's in the 2016 class with Jordan and Shelton as high school recruits, and Chavis and Thrift as older players. Chavis worked out, Thrift didn't see the field before leaving the program, and it seems that both Jordan and Shelton are still developing.

During the assembly of those classes CJF and his staff could not land the top DT talent such as the kid that went to Clemson and is going to be a high draft choice, Christian Wilkins. CJF's first two seasons on the field were not big winning seasons, but very respectable for the talent at hand. But the top players have their choice and want to win. Now that CJF has the program winning he will get more DT talent going forward.......... such as Mustipher.

Top DT talent from the 2017 class could potentially be making an impact this year, but Handsard is still developing, Bolds already transferred, and Barber moved to DT from DE and is also still developing. Who knows, even though CJF said that Thorpe's long term position will be OL, maybe he excels at DT and anchors the middle of the DL for the next few years. He is a huge athletic kid and it will be great to see what he can do to help the defense for at least the rest of this year.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I don't think Mustipher is shirting...he was either dinged up or missed class is my guess. Jordan assuming he is healthy will play as well. It was green up the middle behind Givens and Windsor and that hasn't changed....but hopefully everyone else is healthy enough against MSU.

 

[lockhavenlion3]

I don't think Mustipher is shirting...he was either dinged up or missed class is my guess. Jordan assuming he is healthy will play as well. It was green up the middle behind Givens and Windsor and that hasn't changed....but hopefully everyone else is healthy enough against MSU.

bingo. james mentioned in his talk after the game that kids had to focus on their responsibilities on and off the field. more focus in meetings & classes, attending class, not accepting bs when they're capable of as, etc. that may be why we didn't see some kids sat. who we've seen before. there were several head scratchers, in my opinion.

 

[sluggo72]

CJF took Chavis to try and solve DT depth for 2016 and 2017, and Chavis was a very good 3rd DT in 2017. The current DT depth and talent issue is mainly due to the lack of top DT talent in 2015 and 2016 classes. In 2015 there was only Givens (a DE at that time) and Windsor, who was a late addition to the class and the lowest rated player in the class according to 247. It's great that Givens developed into a very good DT and the Windsor is starting, but there was no top DT talent in that class.

The 2014 class could have helped this year as those players could be redshirt seniors for 2018. But the only high school DT in that class, Antoine White, didn't last long in the program and the other DT was a JC player (Tarow Barney).

The staff went hard after DT's in the 2016 class with Jordan and Shelton as high school recruits, and Chavis and Thrift as older players. Chavis worked out, Thrift didn't see the field before leaving the program, and it seems that both Jordan and Shelton are still developing.

During the assembly of those classes CJF and his staff could not land the top DT talent such as the kid that went to Clemson and is going to be a high draft choice, Christian Wilkins. CJF's first two seasons on the field were not big winning seasons, but very respectable for the talent at hand. But the top players have their choice and want to win. Now that CJF has the program winning he will get more DT talent going forward.......... such as Mustipher.

Top DT talent from the 2017 class could potentially be making an impact this year, but Handsard is still developing, Bolds already transferred, and Barber moved to DT from DE and is also still developing. Who knows, even though CJF said that Thorpe's long term position will be OL, maybe he excels at DT and anchors the middle of the DL for the next few years. He is a huge athletic kid and it will be great to see what he can do to help the defense the rest of this year.

We obviously disagree on this. in 2016 Chavis had 2 solo tackles, and 11 ass't and no sacks, I am sure we had somebody that could have taken up that slack. So during 16 we redshirt the HS kid, and as mentioned perhaps a Jermone Johnson who signed with Indiana, then play him as a R/S frosh in 17. If you look at Johnson's stats from 17 and compare them to Chavis stats, I think their production is very similar. So now we would have Johnson for this year, being his 3rd yr in the program, and would have him for 2 more years, and thus filling holes this year and the next two. Remember here the question is on building depth.
I would much rather build a program via HS kids then the JC route. JC route may appear to fix short term needs, but usually leaves a hole later, such as this one.

 

[MoyerJones]

I got the sense from CJF's post-practice media scrum this Wednesday that: Thorpe is a 100% DT through the rest of 2018 season.

 

[royboy]

Top DT talent from the 2017 class could potentially be making an impact this year, but Handsard is still developing, Bolds already transferred, and Barber moved to DT from DE and is also still developing. Who knows, even though CJF said that Thorpe's long term position will be OL, maybe he excels at DT and anchors the middle of the DL for the next few years. He is a huge athletic kid and it will be great to see what he can do to help the defense for at least the rest of this year.

Good points. And I think Thorpe could be a good addition to the D-line on a longer term basis.

D-tackle is a tough area. They can be the key to a good defense, and they need to rotate during a game (whereas an O-line can go the whole way without subbing if they are playing well together) so a good program would like to have several high caliber D-tackles on the roster. There is a huge demand for high-end D-tackles and a limited supply.

 

[GregInPitt]

We obviously disagree on this. in 2016 Chavis had 2 solo tackles, and 11 ass't and no sacks, I am sure we had somebody that could have taken up that slack. So during 16 we redshirt the HS kid, and as mentioned perhaps a Jermone Johnson who signed with Indiana, then play him as a R/S frosh in 17. If you look at Johnson's stats from 17 and compare them to Chavis stats, I think their production is very similar. So now we would have Johnson for this year, being his 3rd yr in the program, and would have him for 2 more years, and thus filling holes this year and the next two. Remember here the question is on building depth.
I would much rather build a program via HS kids then the JC route. JC route may appear to fix short term needs, but usually leaves a hole later, such as this one.

You are making up a player that you believe CJF could have signed. Unfortunately that player does not exist.

CJF did his best to bring in talented players at all positions. Nice that you can second guess what happened during that recruiting cycle, but you know nothing about the details and how the class was filled.

I trust that CJF did his best.

 

[sluggo72]

You are making up a player that you believe CJF could have signed. Unfortunately that player does not exist.

CJF did his best to bring in talented players at all positions. Nice that you can second guess what happened during that recruiting cycle, but you know nothing about the details and how the class was filled.

I trust that CJF did his best.

making up a player? what are you talking about? He plays at Indiana, I even linked his bio for you, if IU could get him out of Mississippi, I figured CJF could as well, dont you?
Its not second guessing, check my past, I've never been in favor of signing JUCO kids at PSU
I think you should take HS kids, go find them.

 

[GregInPitt]

making up a player? what are you talking about? He plays at Indiana, I even linked his bio for you, if IU could get him out of Mississippi, I figured CJF could as well, dont you?
Its not second guessing, check my past, I've never been in favor of signing JUCO kids at PSU
I think you should take HS kids, go find them.

You "figured". Nice. No, I don't believe your projection on past recruiting. What I do believe is that CJF prioritized the DT talent that year, and did his best to bring in the best talent that was interested in PSU, and that he was interested in. Not every player will be recruited by CJF, as he values character and academics differently than other coaches. So saying that he could have gotten such and such a player does not make sense. I'm sure CJF had more information on that player, and many others, than a posted bio. You don't have any idea if that player would have fit in at PSU academically or otherwise.

I believe that CJF would also like to stick to high school recruits. Unfortunately in the early years of CJF's tenure at PSU he could not recruit enough high end DT talent. That's been well documented. And in those cases it does make sense to bring in a talented JC player when needed.

CJF is a master at roster management, but was hindered by the depleted roster he inherited and also by the stigma of the sanctions and scandal that were part of what he was up against during his first few recruiting classes.

I trust CJF's judgement, and believe his evaluations regarding DT players. He would love to have gotten Christian Wilkens and others, but it just did not happen.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Wow, cannot believe he still babbles about JUCO's taken after the sanctions. Plenty of ship players don't pan out no matter the school. Joe took JUCO's as well. This board creates monsters at times who feel like they are actually capable of runnning 1a program....but they are posting on a message board.

 

[BBrown]

I am not a fan of red shirting, could have been the it factor last week, and to add the good ones opt for the NFL their junior year anyway.

I'm ok with it especially with the new rules but after Shelton was tossed I think the RS needed to come off of Mustipher.
It still might have to.

 

[sluggo72]

Wow, cannot believe he still babbles about JUCO's taken after the sanctions. Plenty of ship players don't pan out no matter the school. Joe took JUCO's as well. This board creates monsters at times who feel like they are actually capable of runnning 1a program....but they are posting on a message board.

I posted about JUCO's before sanctions, during JVP tenure (and number JVP took in 30 yrs is few) and I will continue to do so until they stop doing it, so get used to it. Taking JUCO's creates holes in a roster, just like it is doing so right now. I am surprised you cant see that.

 

[sluggo72]

You "figured". Nice. No, I don't believe your projection on past recruiting. What I do believe is that CJF prioritized the DT talent that year, and did his best to bring in the best talent that was interested in PSU, and that he was interested in. Not every player will be recruited by CJF, as he values character and academics differently than other coaches. So saying that he could have gotten such and such a player does not make sense. I'm sure CJF had more information on that player, and many others, than a posted bio. You don't have any idea if that player would have fit in at PSU academically or otherwise.

I believe that CJF would also like to stick to high school recruits. Unfortunately in the early years of CJF's tenure at PSU he could not recruit enough high end DT talent. That's been well documented. And in those cases it does make sense to bring in a talented JC player when needed.

CJF is a master at roster management, but was hindered by the depleted roster he inherited and also by the stigma of the sanctions and scandal that were part of what he was up against during his first few recruiting classes.

I trust CJF's judgement, and believe his evaluations regarding DT players. He would love to have gotten Christian Wilkens and others, but it just did not happen.

I agree with you on what CJF values, But it is absurd to bring academics into the picture when referring to Tyrell Chavis and his well documented academic struggles in HS, post HS, UVA, JUCO and then getting into PSU. I wonder how many waivers CJF had to get in order to get him admitted.
We have a hole at DT and I think it could have been prevented, that's all.

 

[blion72]

So you don't put CJ Thorpe in the war daddy catagory

actually he may be in the WD category. he just joined the position so very hopeful. i think anyone who can help here is going to play and not RS. just injured guys and those not ready RS.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I cannot wait to watch Brisker make an impact. So glad this staff can see holes and addresses them. I mean Meyer and Saban have signed some, but what do they know about winning...I mean there is a guy on the internet who is against it.

 

[royboy]

I cannot wait to watch Brisker make an impact. So glad this staff can see holes and addresses them. I mean Meyer and Saban have signed some, but what do they know about winning...I mean there is a guy on the internet who is against it.

Yeah, I get the impression Brisker can be a starter next year. Is that what you are saying/hearing?

And for FWIW, he's currently a 3-star recruit per Rivals.

 

[sluggo72]

so you guys are saying there is no hole at DT this year?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Yeah, I get the impression Brisker can be a starter next year. Is that what you are saying/hearing?

And for FWIW, he's currently a 3-star recruit per Rivals.

He'll be in the mix for sure. I know where he is ranked, but I also know people who think he has a chance to make an impact early on. His tape is pretty impressive and I'm thankful we have a staff who can really identify talent. I think he had 4 sacks last weekend or the weekend before BTW. Let's put it like this roy....between the staff or any idiot with a keyboard...I'll take the staff 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

so you guys are saying there is no hole at DT this year?

The hole has nothing to do with Chavis. He was brought in the fill the hole that existed the last 2 years. The hole is because of all the OTHER kids we missed out on during the last few cycles. Although Givens turned out to be a very good DT, most of the kids we have at the top of the depth chart are at least Plan B's. Windsor, Shelton, Brenon Thrift, Corey Bolds, Givens, they were all last minute signings because we lost out on the kids the staff offered first. Even Fred Hansard was a guy the staff identified early, backed off, and then came back to because the higher rated targets went elsewhere.

Even if Chavis was replaced by a 4 year guy, there would still be an issue. I mean usually there are 2 DT's on the field, that's 4 guys in the 2-deep. Chavis' replacement is only one guy. What am i missing here?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

The hole has nothing to do with Chavis. He was brought in the fill the hole that existed the last 2 years. The hole is because of all the OTHER kids we missed out on during the last few cycles. Although Givens turned out to be a very good DT, most of the kids we have at the top of the depth chart are at least Plan B's. Windsor, Shelton, Brenon Thrift, Corey Bolds, Givens, they were all last minute signings because we lost out on the kids the staff offered first. Even Fred Hansard was a guy the staff identified early, backed off, and then came back to because the higher rated targets went elsewhere.

Even if Chavis was replaced by a 4 year guy, there would still be an issue. I mean usually there are 2 DT's on the field, that's 4 guys in the 2-deep. Chavis' replacement is only one guy. What am i missing here?

You aren't missing a thing, nothing at all. You are dead on. During the sanctions DT and LB recruiting for some reason took a beating. It's not a secret or a mystery, but that milk is spilt. Last year PSU signed 3 4 star DT's, but again...it takes time there to develop. Chavis also had a sack in the BT title game IIRC late in the game....so he did make some plays that counted while filling a hole. PSU is not relying on JUCOs, but if a kid is good enough and the need is there...this staff will go that route.

We are young and green at DT due to all the misses a few years back and losing multiple year starters last year. Just like at LB where all 3 had to be replaced so it is young and green people playing there...as well as guys who may not be natural LB's. Nobody has said this is a finished product but some really think it is I guess.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

You aren't missing a thing, nothing at all. You are dead on. During the sanctions DT and LB recruiting for some reason took a beating. It's not a secret or a mystery, but that milk is spilt. Last year PSU signed 3 4 star DT's, but again...it takes time there to develop. Chavis also had a sack in the BT title game IIRC late in the game....so he did make some plays that counted while filling a hole. PSU is not relying on JUCOs, but if a kid is good enough and the need is there...this staff will go that route.

We are young and green at DT due to all the misses a few years back and losing multiple year starters last year. Just like at LB where all 3 had to be replaced so it is young and green people playing there...as well as guys who may not be natural LB's. Nobody has said this is a finished product but some really think it is I guess.

Exactly. There's plenty of thing related to DT recruiting you can blame on the staff, but Chavis is at the bottom of the list.

Even though he was an O'brien guy, the staff still signed Kamonte Carter. They also thought, for some reason, it would be good to sign Corey Bolds and Brenon Thrift. If you want to bitch and moan about DT recruiting, there you go. Chavis? come on, that's just agenda driven BS.

 

[phillybillyreprise]

In 2016 as a sophomore, Antoine White had 17 tackles, 1.5 for a loss in 16. Why did he transfer? He was listed as 2nd team.

 

[djr4rebs]

is the reason we have a 'hole' in the DT rotation because we took a JC kid (Tyrell Chavis) as opposed to a HS kid? That HS kid would be either a Redshirt Soph or Junior by now.
With CJF recruiting ability he could have flipped a Jerome Johnson to PSU and we would be good to go. https://iuhoosiers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=10164

lets face it, for the amount of snaps Chavis took his first year, I am sure we could have gotten by without him ( and thus being able to R/S and HS kid is the point), and If you look Johnson's production as a RS Frosh and Chavis are about the same, except now Indiana has him for this season and 2 more, thus filling our hole.

The hole has nothing to do with Chavis. He was brought in the fill the hole that existed the last 2 years. The hole is because of all the OTHER kids we missed out on during the last few cycles. Although Givens turned out to be a very good DT, most of the kids we have at the top of the depth chart are at least Plan B's.

A hole would mean that injuries, transfers, etc has taken a toll on a position group. Think LB, vs Michigan, 2016. We had a hole.

DT, present day, we have body's, but none of them appear to be NFL draft bound (early rounds).

Then again, this narrative is reserved for nittpicking had we won the game last week.

 

[Bob_Anderson]

A hole would mean that injuries, transfers, etc has taken a toll on a position group. Think LB, vs Michigan, 2016. We had a hole.

DT, present day, we have body's, but none of them appear to be NFL draft bound (early rounds).

Then again, this narrative is reserved for nittpicking had we won the game last week.

Injuries and transfers? Antoine White, Kamonte Carter, Brenon Thrift, and Corey Bolds. Jordan is injured. We have a hole. It's so big that an offensive lineman was just moved over to DT last week, and he saw game action vs a top 5 team in the most important game of the season.

This narrative has nothing to do with the game last week. Those who have been paying attention have been concerned about this exact scenario at LB and DT for years now.

 

[BBrown]

Injuries and transfers? Antoine White, Kamonte Carter, Brenon Thrift, and Corey Bolds. Jordan is injured. We have a hole. It's so big that an offensive lineman was just moved over to DT last week, and he saw game action vs a top 5 team in the most important game of the season.

This narrative has nothing to do with the game last week. Those who have been paying attention have been concerned about this exact scenario at LB and DT for years now.

If we could get Simmons back healthy I really believe it would help a whole lot.

 

[djr4rebs]

Injuries and transfers? Antoine White, Kamonte Carter, Brenon Thrift, and Corey Bolds. Jordan is injured. We have a hole. It's so big that an offensive lineman was just moved over to DT last week, and he saw game action vs a top 5 team in the most important game of the season.

This narrative has nothing to do with the game last week. Those who have been paying attention have been concerned about this exact scenario at LB and DT for years now.

It actually does. The transfers aren't lighting up the world elsewhere are they? We weren't considering our DTs strong prior to the injuries were we?

 

[bdgan]

is the reason we have a 'hole' in the DT rotation because we took a JC kid (Tyrell Chavis) as opposed to a HS kid? That HS kid would be either a Redshirt Soph or Junior by now.
With CJF recruiting ability he could have flipped a Jerome Johnson to PSU and we would be good to go. https://iuhoosiers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=10164

lets face it, for the amount of snaps Chavis took his first year, I am sure we could have gotten by without him ( and thus being able to R/S and HS kid is the point), and If you look Johnson's production as a RS Frosh and Chavis are about the same, except now Indiana has him for this season and 2 more, thus filling our hole.

I think we should gave redshirted Chavis last year. But hey, the Giants picked him up.

 

[sluggo72]

I think we should gave redshirted Chavis last year. But hey, the Giants picked him up.

1) he didn't have a redshirt to use he was a 2x2 kid
2) my comments have nothing to do with ability they have to do with bringing in a Juco over a HS kid. I believe you should bring in HS kids

 

[sluggo72]

Must be Grand Master "Took one too many to the Head" Sluggo.

Lol coming from a guy that doesn't know the difference between man under ( as he identified PSU playing vs OSU) and man free. Which PSU played vs OSU. SMH