Engineering Major question.........
- Thread starter katchthis
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Depends highly on future employer needs/desires. Engineering science is more broad, you get additional engineering courses outside mechanical (like, for example, a couple courses in aerospace, a couple in civil perhaps, etc). Or at least that's how it was back in the 90s. Some employers may look for very specific coursework for a mechanical engineer which may or may not be part of a degree in ESci. My company has hired ESci majors from PSU but didn't title them as "mechanical engineers".
A concern could be that most employers of engineers are familiar with Bsme candidates but not the ESci degree. Then again I maybe biased (have BSME).
A concern could be that most employers of engineers are familiar with Bsme candidates but not the ESci degree. Then again I maybe biased (have BSME).
I think it's good to broaden her academic horizons. But she will still have to focus on a specific discipline for her PE. Also as mentioned it depends how much value the employer puts on the academic track. My employer will not put any value on it. Because the market sector they service has no need for it.
Engineering Science has been around a long time. I was a graduate student in the ESM (Engineering Science and Mechanics) Dept back in the 80’s. An undergraduate E Science degree is designed mostly for students planning to go the graduate school, or someone looking for a kind of “cross-section” engineering foundation. I would think it would be good for your daughter if she is not sure what type of engineer she wants to be. It was an exclusive undergrad degree, requiring an invite is what I recall.
Katchthis
Dad,
Sounds like your daughter has her act together. She should seek out the proper advisors and ‘mentors’ available at the school and choose her plan.
For my part, I graduated in MngEng and used that broad engineering curriculum to build a career involving mineral processing in abrasives, helping build a greenfield plant for ceramic proppants including R&D work, plant engineering in a stamping and assembly plant for lighting fixtures, and then getting into metal stamping as a tooling engineer for 25 plus years. A broad background at PSU has served me well for almost forty years.
I wish her well and expect she can make the right decision.
Dad,
Sounds like your daughter has her act together. She should seek out the proper advisors and ‘mentors’ available at the school and choose her plan.
For my part, I graduated in MngEng and used that broad engineering curriculum to build a career involving mineral processing in abrasives, helping build a greenfield plant for ceramic proppants including R&D work, plant engineering in a stamping and assembly plant for lighting fixtures, and then getting into metal stamping as a tooling engineer for 25 plus years. A broad background at PSU has served me well for almost forty years.
I wish her well and expect she can make the right decision.
Many, many Engineering students at UPARK and faculty singles out and implores your daughter to do this? Sounds like a no brainer.
So are most engineers knowledge of engineering.
Yep, as Nittnee said, ESci was at PSU when I was getting my engineering degree in the 70's.
A couple of thoughts:
If the professor that recommended that she try the Esci dual major is heading that program, he may just want great students, and as many as possible, to support his new program. That's his job. She should not be swayed too much by him.
If your daughter really wants to get her ME degree and hit the job market and make money, as advised above, the Esci add on is likely not worth the value of the the time that it would take.
You said entry to SHC would be a problem, but I believe you meant to say would NOT be a problem.
Are they offering her free tuition to this program, if she is accepted? Then just her time is sacrificed, as well as the year's earnings.
As she is a great student, if she believes she has an interest in more of a management/engineering career, maybe in the future not necessarily now, I believe she would be better served looking in to how to get her MBA while at PSU. PSU has a nice MBA program. I got mine from Pitt at nights, after my older brother, finishing his up at PSU, talked me into the value of an MBA. I was also accepted to PSU's program, but I was a couple of years out, making $$, and had bought a condo and didn't want to go back to being poor. But I had to go to a school that I could commute to, as I was working in Pittsburgh. Your daughter now has the choice to get her MBA from PSU, but once working likely will not have that choice..... When my brother graduated from his participation as a full time PSU MBA student, the graduates with engineering undergrad degrees commanded BIG BUCKS. just a thought. But she may want to go out and get some base line engineering experience first. Either way works.
A couple of thoughts:
If the professor that recommended that she try the Esci dual major is heading that program, he may just want great students, and as many as possible, to support his new program. That's his job. She should not be swayed too much by him.
If your daughter really wants to get her ME degree and hit the job market and make money, as advised above, the Esci add on is likely not worth the value of the the time that it would take.
You said entry to SHC would be a problem, but I believe you meant to say would NOT be a problem.
Are they offering her free tuition to this program, if she is accepted? Then just her time is sacrificed, as well as the year's earnings.
As she is a great student, if she believes she has an interest in more of a management/engineering career, maybe in the future not necessarily now, I believe she would be better served looking in to how to get her MBA while at PSU. PSU has a nice MBA program. I got mine from Pitt at nights, after my older brother, finishing his up at PSU, talked me into the value of an MBA. I was also accepted to PSU's program, but I was a couple of years out, making $$, and had bought a condo and didn't want to go back to being poor. But I had to go to a school that I could commute to, as I was working in Pittsburgh. Your daughter now has the choice to get her MBA from PSU, but once working likely will not have that choice..... When my brother graduated from his participation as a full time PSU MBA student, the graduates with engineering undergrad degrees commanded BIG BUCKS. just a thought. But she may want to go out and get some base line engineering experience first. Either way works.
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Not to sound like a smart-ass, but why not have her ask the profs what the benefits are? I would think that they could tell her.
I can't speak for Engineering at PS but both my kids are Engineering Grads from CMU. They also encourage a 2nd major if possible. Oldest son added an Economics degree to his Mech E degree. He has since gone back and gotten his MBA. Younger son added a Philosophy degree. He has also gotten his Master in Mech E and passed his PE exam. What I told them both was to get all the education you can when you are young before life gets in the way
As Nittnee mentioned ESci has been around for a while. I graduated with Honors in the Schreyer program (ElecEng) and I'd say it helped a little. I think that once you get into industry people will look more at your experience in general. There will be those however that highly value that. I think the thesis portion should be OK if going through the dual-degree program project. The private study room they provide for the Schreyer students is nice though. Very quiet and conducive to studying. That was one of the nice perks. Good luck to her ... sounds like she's got a bright future!
Just the opinion of a retired professor in applied science (but not engineering): if the Engineering Science degree will delay her graduation, she'd be better off going for a master's. If she has to do a thesis, I'd recommend doing a master's thesis. GreginPitt may be on to something that the prof is probably trying to recruit a top notch student into his program. Did it myself more than a few times.
An idea to mention to your daughter is MIT's executive MBA/MEng program. It's for students who have spent at least five years in industry and, best of all, tuition is paid entirely or almost in full by corporate sponsors. My daughter (BS in IE from WVU) went through this program and thought it was very beneficial. It sounds like she has the grades and the aptitude to write her own ticket. Best of luck to her.
Edit: Forgot to mention that graduate students often receive tuition waivers and stipends but this depends on the major.
An idea to mention to your daughter is MIT's executive MBA/MEng program. It's for students who have spent at least five years in industry and, best of all, tuition is paid entirely or almost in full by corporate sponsors. My daughter (BS in IE from WVU) went through this program and thought it was very beneficial. It sounds like she has the grades and the aptitude to write her own ticket. Best of luck to her.
Edit: Forgot to mention that graduate students often receive tuition waivers and stipends but this depends on the major.
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Katchthis
One thing about engineering classes, is they have little reference to the work in the real world. Concepts are the same except processes are so different. Physics remains the same and so does the math they learn but how it’s used in different ways.
The interns I’ve worked with over the past ten or fifteen engineers were all amazed at how little there school work related to work work.
Learn how to learn and how to do it on your own is invaluable and will put your daughter way ahead of most graduates.
One thing about engineering classes, is they have little reference to the work in the real world. Concepts are the same except processes are so different. Physics remains the same and so does the math they learn but how it’s used in different ways.
The interns I’ve worked with over the past ten or fifteen engineers were all amazed at how little there school work related to work work.
Learn how to learn and how to do it on your own is invaluable and will put your daughter way ahead of most graduates.
That's what I have heard from a few guys out in the field. Thanks for confirming their thoughts.
I can tell you most of my old eng. Overly studious classmates will tell you they wished they had more fun and studied a little less. From the high to low after a few years as engineers, how you adapted, your drive and how you interacted with others was just as important as anything
I personally would not recommend an MBA until anyone has a strong footing in the real world. Getting a garden variety MBA is kinda like getting a bit of a lot of skills but not a lot of any one.
Once you have a resume of experience you can build a better graduate study program related to your own skills and wants.
I have worked with many MBAs in eng managerial positions and I’m rarely impressed. It seems folks with MS/ME credentials are more better as managers in technical fields.
Good luck and remember there really isn’t a hurry to getting another degree after her BS.
I’m pushing a fourty year career now and have another few years for sure.
Once you have a resume of experience you can build a better graduate study program related to your own skills and wants.
I have worked with many MBAs in eng managerial positions and I’m rarely impressed. It seems folks with MS/ME credentials are more better as managers in technical fields.
Good luck and remember there really isn’t a hurry to getting another degree after her BS.
I’m pushing a fourty year career now and have another few years for sure.
I get it. I just think that when someone is trying to convince you to do something, they should have a good sales pitch. Have them explain why she should do it.
Good luck, you obviously have a smart girl on your hands!
Mining Engineering.
We had to study a bit of Civil, EE, Chem, Mech, and IE plus all the core work as it was figured to be one or two guys doing it all in the real world.
So we got a good spread of info including Surveying and HVAC.
We had to study a bit of Civil, EE, Chem, Mech, and IE plus all the core work as it was figured to be one or two guys doing it all in the real world.
So we got a good spread of info including Surveying and HVAC.
I haven’t read the entire thread, but if this were my daughter, I would tell her to work towards a business minor.
She needs exposure to other fields of study at this point, and other students with a skill set different than hers.
FYI, I have an Engineering degree from PSU.
She needs exposure to other fields of study at this point, and other students with a skill set different than hers.
FYI, I have an Engineering degree from PSU.
Tomorrow marks my 30th anniversary as an Engineer and Engineering Manager, so I feel I can speak with some authority...
Really depends A LOT on what she wants to do.
As a hiring manager I will say that dual majors honestly don't impress me much. I'm hiring you as a mechanical engineer.... The fact that you have a minor in physics or math or ESci.... Meh. If I have 2 candidates that are nearly identical, ok, its a differentiator. But if I have one candidate with a summer internship or electives in the area I'm looking for, its going to kick the crap out of the ESci thing.
MBA with a BSME and no experience? Your resume isn't getting read, its getting circular filed. You want to be the boss but you haven't paid your dues. That MBA does me zero good if I want you as a design engineer.
Now, if she wants to get more into research than industry, or if she's not really sure what she wants to do, ESci is a good option.
Really depends A LOT on what she wants to do.
As a hiring manager I will say that dual majors honestly don't impress me much. I'm hiring you as a mechanical engineer.... The fact that you have a minor in physics or math or ESci.... Meh. If I have 2 candidates that are nearly identical, ok, its a differentiator. But if I have one candidate with a summer internship or electives in the area I'm looking for, its going to kick the crap out of the ESci thing.
MBA with a BSME and no experience? Your resume isn't getting read, its getting circular filed. You want to be the boss but you haven't paid your dues. That MBA does me zero good if I want you as a design engineer.
Now, if she wants to get more into research than industry, or if she's not really sure what she wants to do, ESci is a good option.
My degree is in Mechanical (from PSU) and I remember Engineering Science (and Mechanics) as I worked on it as a minor. With Mechanical being such a broad field anyway, I would think that unless she knows of a specific field/discipline that she want to pursue in grad school or industry it would serve better to get additional study outside of engineering rather than inside. Unless she's after something specific most people outside the PSU sphere won't know what the degree is really in or how it's different from MechE. Just my thoughts. I would say good luck to her, but it doesn't sound like she needs luck.
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Good God. You must be very proud. Sounds like an impressive young lady.
Anyway...
1. Is ESci actually new? I swear I remember it existing back when I was getting my BSEE in the mid 90's.
2. If she wants to take a traditional engineering career, I don't think bothering with ESCI is really worth much - from a practical standpoint. It certainly would be cool (from an engineer's perspective) and an honor, but not much 'value.'
However, if she wants to pile up prestigious degrees and focus on teaching and research, it could yield a lot of value on that track.
JMO
In any event, sounds like she's probably going to be alright either way.
Since she is interning with stage and sound, is that the industry she wants to work in after graduation? I would have thought that biomedical engineering may have been a consideration, given you and your wife’s medical careers...
I understand your points about a lack of experience. But there are top corporations that do hire elite students with both business and engineering educations into high level initial training programs. And their offered starting salaries are very lucrative. From my 40 years of as an Engineer and Engineering Manager......
One of my fellow PSU engineering students, a good friend and project partner, got hired into such a program upon graduating from PSU. He retired faster that I did!!
A top student considering such a path could go to the PSU placement services, as well as the dean of the MBA program (or Deans office personnel), and inquire about the potential for opportunities upon graduation with an BSME and MBA with top honors..... Also talk to students currently in the MBA program, some of whom may be in the process of interviewing, to get realistic career path information.
Lots of options, and they are all very good ones!
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good to her. I do know some that had it all like that too. great for her, just wanted you to remember that's part of school also. some never went to a football game. the fools
Katchthis,
I have a couple of questions and one comment before responding more thoroughly.
Questions
- post-graduation, is your daughter interested in employment in the “private sector” as an engineer, engineering manager or even a CEO OR does she desire to remain in academia, either doing research or teaching?
- Why is she depending on faculty to give her “advice”?
I was once in your daughter’ situation. I had Professors trying to steer me one way or another, but in the end, I realized that (a) they were Professional Academics who were looking for others to follow in their own footsteps and (b) were individuals who tried to “make-it” in the private sector and failed. They were simply too out-of-touch with the real “engineering marketplace” to provide reliable advice.
I admire your daughter’s academic aggressiveness in wanting to finish in 3 years, but I think she is missing an incredible opportunity to make herself a more complete and marketable “technical professional”. She needs to give serious consideration to adding a semester or two to complete the following list of courses.
- Finance (Basic, Corporate and Personal)
- Business Operations Management
- Accounting (Cash + Financial)
- Business Law
- Macroeconomics
- Microeconomics
P.S. Your daughter’s internship sounds like a great one. I hope she gets to “go out on the road” and optimize live performance audio along with meeting new/strange people and gaining an alternative perspective on life. She might even meet a wealthy musician
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PPB, you have stated the issue perfectly. I had the same issue in school, with professors trying to steer me towards an advanced degree in a narrow field of engineering. Even with only minimal real-world experience of my own at the time, that advice didn't feel right to me. Luckily, I didn't heed it.
The OP's daughter appears to have effectively mastered the Mech Eng curriculum, which is great. She now needs to broaden her field of knowledge, or she runs a great risk of being overqualified and underemployed for a good part of her future career. She definitely needs some business background, so she can understand the financial implications of her technical work and become more marketable to a wider range of employers.
And, for the love of God, she needs to take at least 4 years to graduate. Rushing into the workforce with her high intellect but limited background is a mistake of the highest order.
New erra, your post brought up another issue for me.
She is only going into her Junior year, so she really has not had much exposure to the Mech Engr curriculum, as the first two years of engineering coursework have minimal differentiation between engineering majors. Or some other science curriculums. Another reason it would he hard to make a move into an additional engineering curriculum such as Eng Sci.....
Sounds like she has already made the decision to go through the Engr curriculum in 3 years, with the only decision being whether to take on an additional major or graduate degree....
She is only going into her Junior year, so she really has not had much exposure to the Mech Engr curriculum, as the first two years of engineering coursework have minimal differentiation between engineering majors. Or some other science curriculums. Another reason it would he hard to make a move into an additional engineering curriculum such as Eng Sci.....
Sounds like she has already made the decision to go through the Engr curriculum in 3 years, with the only decision being whether to take on an additional major or graduate degree....
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Greg, sorry for misinterpreting the situation. Congrats to your daughter, and to you for raising her. I'm sure she will be a great success in whatever she wants to do. As I mentioned above, I would strongly counsel her to take some business courses and maybe even get a business minor. With that combination of skills, she will be unstoppable. Best of luck to her!
I think I can provide you with some insight.
I graduated in Engineering Science at Penn State in 1970. Back then it was the honors engineering curriculum and provided a broad background in most facets of engineering. I then obtained 2 MS degrees - one in Mechanical and another in Nuclear. Both MS degrees were obtained going to night school while I worked.
I have worked as an engineer for 47 years. Most of the time I was an engineering manager. I have hired hundreds of engineers, many from Penn State. My recommendation is that your daughter complete her engineering courses in 3 years and then spend the 4th year honing her communication skills and broadening her education. Have her take public speaking courses, writing courses, literature courses, and maybe even a foreign language. I have found that most engineers come to the workplace with fine technical skills and little communication skills. The ones who succeed in industry are the ones with superior communication skills. Your daughter can always hone her engineering skills in the workplace or by doing what I did and getting an MS degree at night school.
It doesn't surprise me that the Penn State engineering professors strongly recommend that your daughter take advanced engineering courses. Most engineering professors are career academicians and don't have a clue as to what it takes to succeed in industry. The key to success in industry is the ability to write and speak clearly and convincingly. Take my word for this. I know what I am talking about!
Good advice, Peetz. This is similar to may advice to Katchthis's daughter.Katchthis,
I have a couple of questions and one comment before responding more thoroughly.
Questions
Comment
- post-graduation, is your daughter interested in employment in the “private sector” as an engineer, engineering manager or even a CEO OR does she desire to remain in academia, either doing research or teaching?
- Why is she depending on faculty to give her “advice”?
I was once in your daughter’ situation. I had Professors trying to steer me one way or another, but in the end, I realized that (a) they were Professional Academics who were looking for others to follow in their own footsteps and (b) were individuals who tried to “make-it” in the private sector and failed. They were simply too out-of-touch with the real “engineering marketplace” to provide reliable advice.
I admire your daughter’s academic aggressiveness in wanting to finish in 3 years, but I think she is missing an incredible opportunity to make herself a more complete and marketable “technical professional”. She needs to give serious consideration to adding a semester or two to complete the following list of courses.
In short, she should purposely take “educationally-shaping” courses outside of her “comfort zone”.
- Finance (Basic, Corporate and Personal)
- Business Operations Management
- Accounting (Cash + Financial)
- Business Law
- Macroeconomics
- Microeconomics
P.S. Your daughter’s internship sounds like a great one. I hope she gets to “go out on the road” and optimize live performance audio along with meeting new/strange people and gaining an alternative perspective on life. She might even meet a wealthy musician
I could not agree more. I am not an engineer by training, I am a scientist but I am involved in the hiring decisions of many mechanical engineers. I would already be impressed by the academic accomplishment of graduating in 3 years with a 4.0. A double major in Scheyer is not going to impress me that much more. At that point, I am more thinking about the job candidates career goals, personality, and how well they would fit in with the organization. I have even had some cases where candidates seem a little too driven academically and I feel they will not stick around too long so I pick a candidate who maybe does not have the academic accomplishments but I feel will be with our company for the long haul.
And yes, yes, yes about the communication skills. Some of our young engineers presentations are just awful. They fill slide after slide full of poorly formatted data and unreadable graphs. I call it a data dump. They want to show you how hard they are working by including every bit of data they collected. I have seen scientists do it, so it is not just engineers. The part that really gets me is that they have no conclusions. I guess some of that is just a lack of confidence. I try to tell the young engineers that they need to distill down the data and tell me what it really means in a few sentences. I don't always have the time to worry about all the minute details. That is their job.
Excellent post, Langmuir. You said it better than I did.
I was thinking about this some more. For someone as technically astute as katchthis's daughter seems to be, the best think I can think of for her to do would be to join an acting group. Get experience performing in front of a crowd of people. Learn how to be comfortable in a high stress situation. There are likely opportunities to do that at Penn State. Anything to hone her speaking and writing abilities would be beneficial.
