FC/OT: Serial Season 1 Discussion - Who killed Hae Min Lee?

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Okay, finally finished Season 2 of Serial and while I really enjoyed it, I can see why Season 1 fans were a bit let down; Season 1 is way superior. I'm only half way through, but the mystery surrounding Hae Min Lee's death is so compelling I'm literally listening to the podcast every chance I get. There's so much to get into whether it's the credibility of witnesses, the investigation, the new technology that assisted the investigation, the facts and circumstances surrounding her actual death, the discovery of her body, or the fact that the two main players have completely contradictory stories it's literally amazing they were actually able to convict Adnan Syed of the crime (who says he wasn't anywhere near Hae on the day of her death).

Sarah Koenig does a great job at stringing the listener along and postulating her own theories. Listening to her and her producer try to re-enact the day of Hae's death and hearing her confront Adnan on the phone about it (basically, Hae was killed and moved during a 21 minute time frame that went from a high school, to a parking lot, to a park and ride - not an easy feat, but they accomplished it) was really riveting.

What's really frustrating is that Adnan (who is guilty as far as I'm concerned) keeps going on and on about how nothing in particular stands out about the day she was killed because it was an ordinary day to him - EXCEPT that everything he did that day was NOT ordinary - he wasn't at school all day, he didn't have his car, he didn't go home after track, and he hung out with his sort of friend Jay in the morning and evening.

Anyway, lots to get into here - anyone have any thoughts? I assume at some point Sarah will address the last big elephant in the room - if Adnan didn't kill Hae, who did?

 

[BVSt.Paul]

Well done on the summary. It has been a long time since I listened, but wasn't the dodgy guy who found the body initially a suspect? Also, has Adnan been granted a new trial or is that under reconsideration?

 

[Brad908]

I can't remember his name, but Hae's older boyfriend that worked at lens crafters. I don't buy his alibi. His mom was the manager at the store. He was too easily dismissed.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Well done on the summary. It has been a long time since I listened, but wasn't the dodgy guy who found the body initially a suspect? Also, has Adnan been granted a new trial or is that under reconsideration?

Yeah, he was a suspect but relatively quickly dismissed. He was a repairman who liked to hit the sauce while on the job. Took a leak after drinking a 22 oz. beer at his house during lunch (his job site was only three miles from his house - dude had to pee something fierce). Stumbled upon the body. Police thought they had their guy when he admitted he's probably drank at that park before, but during questioning when asked about the kind of booze he drank, he admitted to nearly everything but brandy, which was the bottle type found near the body. He was also a streaker, but no history of violent crime.

There have been some recent updates about his case during Season 2 but I haven't listened to them; trying to finish the whole season first.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I can't remember his name, but Hae's older boyfriend that worked at lens crafters. I don't buy his alibi. His mom was the manager at the store. He was too easily dismissed.

Yeah - Don. Sarah hasn't covered Don much yet but my guess is she will soon. Right now, she has a law professor and her team working on analyzing Adnan's case - her take is there's no way he should have been convicted with the evidence they had (not much, to include lousy forensic evidence). What's really interesting IMO is how wildly different Jay's story is from Adnan's. Jay has changed his story multiple times, but I guess the big parts were too convincing to ignore (the location of Hae's car; the mysterious call made to Nisha from Adnan's phone at a time Adnan was supposed to be at track practice when Jay was known to have had the phone, thus they must have been together). Adnan's big problem is he can't produce one single credible memory from that day except that he was probably high and he hung out with Jay some. Everything in between is a toss up.

 

[uscgPSU]

Like many people say on various topics. .."I blame Jay".

I honestly think Jay in involved a lot more than he has said. Hearing the interrogation tapes raises some serious doubts for me.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Like many people say on various topics. .."I blame Jay".

I honestly think Jay in involved a lot more than he has said. Hearing the interrogation tapes raises some serious doubts for me.

Jay does seem to raise a lot of questions - he had Adnan's car and phone. But, why take the cops to Hae's car if you're the killer? And pinning it on Adnan and hoping he has no alibi would have to be a major stroke of luck. All it would take for Adnan to be innocent is one corroborating witness at track practice or the library. Sadly, he doesn't have one (and can't really remember if he was at either place anyway). The other thing is Jay doesn't have a motive.

 

[Brad908]

Wasn't Jay's possible motive the close relationship Adnan had with Stephanie?

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Wasn't Jay's possible motive the close relationship Adnan had with Stephanie?

They do bring that up and it's really weird that Jay wasn't more of a focus. His story changed constantly. But at least he had a story - Adnan couldn't remember anything at all. Based on the preponderance of the evidence, I'd say Adnan did it; he vehemently fights any and all arguments Sarah uses to place him at the scene of the crime, and the things he does remember don't ever seem to help his case. There are also a couple of bizarre items that probably should have been investigated at least a bit - for example, the girl who told her father that the boy next door told her he saw a dead body in the back of a trunk, and she mentions Adnan's name (despite her not knowing Adnan and the fact that her father called the police immediately when she told him, even though the actual murder happened weeks ago and Adnan had yet to be arrested); or the fact that Adnan, when contacted by police about Hae being missing, did not once try to contact her despite being her ex and supposedly still being friendly with each other illustrated by the fact that he made a point of telling the police he called her several times just to try to give her his new number (which she wrote in her diary the day before she was killed). Having said that, I don't think there's enough evidence to convict Adnan especially since the prosecution's key witness has lied to investigators several times.

 

[DianefromNJ]

For anyone that loved Serial, I would highly recommend Undisclosed: the State vs Adnan available on iTunes. It approaches this case from the legal point of view, not from a journalist point of view. The podcasts do a deep dive on the police, defense and district attorney mishandling of the case. For example, why did Jay lie? Well evidence points to the police threatening to charge Jay for an unrelated matter, a charge that would have brought heavy jail time for Jay. To avoid that charge, they got Jays "cooperation" as a "witness" against Adnan

 

[AldenT]

They do bring that up and it's really weird that Jay wasn't more of a focus. His story changed constantly. But at least he had a story - Adnan couldn't remember anything at all. Based on the preponderance of the evidence, I'd say Adnan did it; he vehemently fights any and all arguments Sarah uses to place him at the scene of the crime, and the things he does remember don't ever seem to help his case. There are also a couple of bizarre items that probably should have been investigated at least a bit - for example, the girl who told her father that the boy next door told her he saw a dead body in the back of a trunk, and she mentions Adnan's name (despite her not knowing Adnan and the fact that her father called the police immediately when she told him, even though the actual murder happened weeks ago and Adnan had yet to be arrested); or the fact that Adnan, when contacted by police about Hae being missing, did not once try to contact her despite being her ex and supposedly still being friendly with each other illustrated by the fact that he made a point of telling the police he called her several times just to try to give her his new number (which she wrote in her diary the day before she was killed). Having said that, I don't think there's enough evidence to convict Adnan especially since the prosecution's key witness has lied to investigators several times.

I can appreciate these. The bottom line for me is that there is no way he could be convicted under the burden of "beyond a reasonable doubt;" a civil trial, perhaps, but there is so much reasonable doubt among the evidence against him, let alone the exculpatory witness who places him at the library during those 21 minutes. To me, given this, his inability to recall anything specific simply shows it was a normal, meaningless day to him. He shouldn't be in prison for this whether he did it or not IMHO, the evidence just isn't there.

 

[psualt]

or the fact that Adnan, when contacted by police about Hae being missing, did not once try to contact her despite being her ex and supposedly still being friendly with each other illustrated by the fact that he made a point of telling the police he called her several times just to try to give her his new number

One thing to keep in mind is that he mentioned at least once he didn't think much about it. Basically, he thought she was going to be in deep $hit when she finally came home. She had also talked about taking off to CA.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

One thing to keep in mind is that he mentioned at least once he didn't think much about it. Basically, he thought she was going to be in deep $hit when she finally came home. She had also talked about taking off to CA.

Or he knew she was dead....

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

For anyone that loved Serial, I would highly recommend Undisclosed: the State vs Adnan available on iTunes. It approaches this case from the legal point of view, not from a journalist point of view. The podcasts do a deep dive on the police, defense and district attorney mishandling of the case. For example, why did Jay lie? Well evidence points to the police threatening to charge Jay for an unrelated matter, a charge that would have brought heavy jail time for Jay. To avoid that charge, they got Jays "cooperation" as a "witness" against Adnan

I read some of the comments about 'Undisclosed' and found many of them felt the show as inherently pro- 'Adnan is innocent' (given the creator is Rabia Chaudry, who was the lawyer responsible for getting Sarah Koenig to look at the case - in the hopes she could help prove Adnan was innocent). Not that think he's completely guilty, but that's a little too biased for me.

 

[DianefromNJ]

I read some of the comments about 'Undisclosed' and found many of them felt the show as inherently pro- 'Adnan is innocent' (given the creator is Rabia Chaudry, who was the lawyer responsible for getting Sarah Koenig to look at the case - in the hopes she could help prove Adnan was innocent). Not that think he's completely guilty, but that's a little too biased for me.

Well, Midnighter, I can certainly understand your point of view. As I listened to Undisclosed, it became clear how the police wanted to close the case, not find the murderer. Just The 4 podcasts on the post conviction relief eviscerated the state's case. I think Baltimore has had an issue with its law enforcement and judicial system for years.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Well, Midnighter, I can certainly understand your point of view. As I listened to Undisclosed, it became clear how the police wanted to close the case, not find the murderer. Just The 4 podcasts on the post conviction relief eviscerated the state's case. I think Baltimore has had an issue with its law enforcement and judicial system for years.

Agree. The deeper this goes, the more things start to look bad for them. But, there was the one independent investigator Sarah hired to vet their work, and he said it was well above average. Of course, he also indicated we are likely not privy to some 7+ hours of conversation between Jay and the detectives, and who knows what was said then.

 

[Peetz Pool Boy]

Okay, finally finished Season 2 of Serial and while I really enjoyed it, I can see why Season 1 fans were a bit let down; Season 1 is way superior. I'm only half way through, but the mystery surrounding Hae Min Lee's death is so compelling I'm literally listening to the podcast every chance I get. There's so much to get into whether it's the credibility of witnesses, the investigation, the new technology that assisted the investigation, the facts and circumstances surrounding her actual death, the discovery of her body, or the fact that the two main players have completely contradictory stories it's literally amazing they were actually able to convict Adnan Syed of the crime (who says he wasn't anywhere near Hae on the day of her death).

Sarah Koenig does a great job at stringing the listener along and postulating her own theories. Listening to her and her producer try to re-enact the day of Hae's death and hearing her confront Adnan on the phone about it (basically, Hae was killed and moved during a 21 minute time frame that went from a high school, to a parking lot, to a park and ride - not an easy feat, but they accomplished it) was really riveting.

What's really frustrating is that Adnan (who is guilty as far as I'm concerned) keeps going on and on about how nothing in particular stands out about the day she was killed because it was an ordinary day to him - EXCEPT that everything he did that day was NOT ordinary - he wasn't at school all day, he didn't have his car, he didn't go home after track, and he hung out with his sort of friend Jay in the morning and evening.

Anyway, lots to get into here - anyone have any thoughts? I assume at some point Sarah will address the last big elephant in the room - if Adnan didn't kill Hae, who did?

Suzie Wong....Calder Alley...stale egg roll.

 

[dfm135psu]

Jay does seem to raise a lot of questions - he had Adnan's car and phone. But, why take the cops to Hae's car if you're the killer? And pinning it on Adnan and hoping he has no alibi would have to be a major stroke of luck. All it would take for Adnan to be innocent is one corroborating witness at track practice or the library. Sadly, he doesn't have one (and can't really remember if he was at either place anyway). The other thing is Jay doesn't have a motive.

He does have a corroborating witness at the library (Asia McClain), but his trial lawyer didn't pursue that thread. I'm not sure where you're at in the season, so I won't say more than that, but I'm pretty sure she's mentioned in one the earlier episodes. There's also more information that's come out since the podcast ended which raises further doubts about the prosecution's evidence.

My opinion is that the prosecution didn't make a convincing case of his guilt to begin with. With the new evidence it seems even less likely that he is guilty. With that said, I haven't heard a convincing case made for anyone else to have done it.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

He does have a corroborating witness at the library (Asia McClain), but his trial lawyer didn't pursue that thread. I'm not sure where you're at in the season, so I won't say more than that, but I'm pretty sure she's mentioned in one the earlier episodes. There's also more information that's come out since the podcast ended which raises further doubts about the prosecution's evidence.

My opinion is that the prosecution didn't make a convincing case of his guilt to begin with. With the new evidence it seems even less likely that he is guilty. With that said, I haven't heard a convincing case made for anyone else to have done it.

Yeah, but didn't she end up being unreliable? Like she was writing the letters to *give* Adnan an alibi? I remember Sarah visiting her in California - she wigged out after contacted by a PI for Adnan's family and said she signed a statement supporting Adnan under duress.

The other issues that hurt Adnan IMO is that there was the call to Nisha from his phone for two minutes plus shortly after the murder was to take place (Jay would not have known her to call her), and Jay's one friend who said Jay and Adnan came to her house the night of the murder and that a) she did not know Adnan, b) she believed he was acting 'weird', c) he received a stressful phone call where he made comments along the lines of, 'What am I going do to?', etc., and d) he left the house at some point to sit in the car and Jay joined him shortly thereafter.

The real evidence against Adnan is light - hand print on a map in Hae's car (also lots of other prints on the map), cell phone pings that put him near locations that jive with *most* of Jay's account of that day, a note he was passing back and forth with a friend about Hae that had 'I am going to kill' written at the top, and basically no alibi that can be corroborated. The 'implied' evidence against Adnan is worse, at least in the eyes of the jurors - especially the fact that he didn't testify in court.

 

[DianefromNJ]

He does have a corroborating witness at the library (Asia McClain), but his trial lawyer didn't pursue that thread. I'm not sure where you're at in the season, so I won't say more than that, but I'm pretty sure she's mentioned in one the earlier episodes. There's also more information that's come out since the podcast ended which raises further doubts about the prosecution's evidence.

My opinion is that the prosecution didn't make a convincing case of his guilt to begin with. With the new evidence it seems even less likely that he is guilty. With that said, I haven't heard a convincing case made for anyone else to have done it.

Yes, new evidence was presented during the post conviction relief (pcr) hearing. Asia served as a reliable witness for the defense at this hearing. Apparently she was discouraged and misled years earlier by the prosecution, and the original defense attorney was too sick from cancer to follow up with her to testify for Jay during the original trial.

In addition, the pcr hearing included new evidence that cell tower cell phone data mistakenly placied Jay at the crime scene . That's just a couple of examples; the pcr hearing included more evidence from the defense that the prosecution could not blow holes through.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Yes, new evidence was presented during the post conviction relief (pcr) hearing. Asia served as a reliable witness for the defense at this hearing. Apparently she was discouraged and misled years earlier by the prosecution, and the original defense attorney was too sick from cancer to follow up with her to testify for Jay during the original trial.

In addition, the pcr hearing included new evidence that cell tower cell phone data mistakenly placied Jay at the crime scene . That's just a couple of examples; the pcr hearing included more evidence from the defense that the prosecution could not blow holes through.

But, wasn't Adnan's sentence upheld after the PCR hearing? And Asia, IIRC, said she was pestered by the defense and Adnan's family - not the prosecution. Just a strange case overall.

 

[DianefromNJ]

But, wasn't Adnan's sentence upheld after the PCR hearing? And Asia, IIRC, said she was pestered by the defense and Adnan's family - not the prosecution. Just a strange case overall.

Asia laid out a different version of events with the prosecution during this year's pcr hearing. This hearing occurred a year or so after the completion of Serial. I came across a news report that the ruling hadn't been made yet as of the end of April. I can't find any further update. The judge can take months to make the ruling.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Asia laid out a different version of events with the prosecution during this year's pcr hearing. This hearing occurred a year or so after the completion of Serial. I came across a news report that the ruling hadn't been made yet as of the end of April. I can't find any further update. The judge can take months to make the ruling.

Right - I remember there being some 'Season 1' updates while I was listening to Season 2. I just got to the part of S:S1 where Sarah has mentioned recent conversations have shed some light (or just muddied the waters more) on a few things, the biggest being a call from a girl who has a crystal clear memory of talking to Hae after school the day of her murder. She says there is absolutely no way she was killed around 2:36pm since she recalls talking to her at school until almost 3:00pm. The other issue brought to Sarah's attention is the fact that there have never been pay phones at the Best Buy where Adnan supposedly called Jay after he murdered Hae. So confusing! What is really starting to reveal itself though is that it appears the police zeroed in on Adnan, and made sure they got their guy. Could they have been manipulating Jay?

 

[DianefromNJ]

Right - I remember there being some 'Season 1' updates while I was listening to Season 2. I just got to the part of S:S1 where Sarah has mentioned recent conversations have shed some light (or just muddied the waters more) on a few things, the biggest being a call from a girl who has a crystal clear memory of talking to Hae after school the day of her murder. She says there is absolutely no way she was killed around 2:36pm since she recalls talking to her at school until almost 3:00pm. The other issue brought to Sarah's attention is the fact that there have never been pay phones at the Best Buy where Adnan supposedly called Jay after he murdered Hae. So confusing! What is really starting to reveal itself though is that it appears the police zeroed in on Adnan, and made sure they got their guy. Could they have been manipulating Jay?

Yes, Midnighter, the evidence presented in the additional podcasts I listened to pointed to the bias the Baltimore police had against Muslims. That opened the door to concentrating on Adnan. The goal of the police was to close the case as quickly as possible, not to investigate leads that took their focus away from Adnan. Evidence points to the police coming up with a drug related charge against Jay and then threatening to put Jay away for a long time on that charge unless he testified against Adnan. (Similar to how Steven Averys nephew was used) You can actually pick up the coaching of Jay by the police on some of the interrogation tapes. While some may find Undisclosed podcasts to be biased toward Adnan, I found its treasure trove of additional evidence not included in the Serial podcasts to be utterly fascinating.