The hips weren't covered (As Jordan was around the upper body) and he never got in behind the shoulder (because duh), so as long as Hall has his hand behind the knee it's no two
FC: what did Ryan say after the finals match
- Thread starter CJLion
- Start date
I'm guessing Tom is a really good person and father. I know every night as he tucks Jake into bed he kisses him on the head, checks under the bed for Jason Nolf, and assures his son he isn't under there and he can sleep tight. You guys shouldn't pick on this guy.
That is my biggest issue with replay. IMO that could have been called a TD, but if it had been reversed Mark would then not even awarded the 2-2.
Can someone explain why is it necessary to wipe away all continuous action.
At the time and from my vantage in the arena I thought Jordan had the takedown and Hall reversed. Finally seeing video of it though it's pretty clear that at all times throughout the sequence, Hall has good position on a switch and Jordan doesn't have control. And we know Hall's position on the switch was legit because he hits it seconds after the moment Ryan chose to isolate in support of his argument. Still frames of alleged takedowns are as useless as still frames of alleged pins.
....and then daddy Ryan reminds like Jake to dream about one day being allowed to wrestle in the winners bracket at B1G's.
Thomas Ryan@Buckeye158
Been in the sport since the 7th grade. Never seen this not called a TD! Time for college wrestling to get serious about video review.
1:20 PM - 20 Mar 2017 from Aruba
Rules somewhat subjective for this situation imho and revolve around "control criteria" being met (and the defending wrestler not being able to improve their position with their "leg hold" - whatever variety it is). If BoJo had dropped down and.shown control of both legs (or wrapped around the hips with both arms), I think it's a TD. But he never got behind Hall and his arms stayed high and to the front.
His legs were across Hall's legs, but Hall continues to maintain the Hi-C position (i.e., Hall is still able to improve his position from there as evidenced by what he did next) - under the rules for that seated neutral-scramble position with the bottom wrestler maintaining a leg, it is not a TD if he can still improve his position and his defensive position has not been fully neutralized (which it hadn't as evidenced by what happened moments later).
This is the same "control rules" that applied to the Gulibon-Heil situation. Hall clearly could still "improve his position" using his high-crotch hold, as he actually did moments later, therefore under the "control rules" for the situation it is not a TD.
Last edited:
Not really a "switch" imho as the scramble was initiated from the Neutral Position - more of a high-crotch hold from neutral. In any event, BoJo never met the "control rules" for that situation as he was not controlling Hall's lower-body and legs - both his arms/hands were attempting to control Hall's upper-body and BoJo never got behind Hall. Had BoJo dropped down onto Hall's lower-body, maybe, but the test there, when the defensive wrestler is seated with a leg hold, is whether the defensive wrestler can "improve his position" with his leg hold. Hall clearly could improve his position as he demonstrated on "continuation" from the still photo shown, so the correct call was clearly made as BoJo did not exhibit "control criteria" for that situation.
You do t go upper body or lower body with PSU you just go home and reconsider your entire life.So does that mean you don't go upper body against Hall too? I thought it was just Joseph?
In this situation, Hall's high-crotch hold is also an issue because BoJo did not drop down on Hall and control him from the hips down - nor did he get behind Hall to show upper-body control (he is to the side of Hall and both his hands/arms are to the front shoulders). In a situation where the wrestler is in a seated position with control of a leg resulting from a "neutral scramble" (as in this situation), the control criteria say that you must neutralize the seated wrestler's leg hold and ability to "improve his position" - this is generally exhibited by controlling the wrestler from the hips down (i.e., having control of both legs). The criteria here were identical to the Gulibon-Heil situation. Hall demonstrated that it was a good call by "improving his position" instantaneously after the still shot posted by Ryan using the control of BoJo's leg via the high-crotch hold he had. Hall's hand being on the mat is not the determining factor in a Neutral Scramble where Hall is literally SITTING on the mat already! If BoJo were BEHIND Hall and Hall is either in that seated position OR he puts a hand down, then it's a TD, but in this case, BoJo is not BEHIND Hall so whether Hall is seated or has a hand down is not the determining factor here.
Don't agree - the "control criteria" for this specific situation (i.e., Neutral Scramble where one wrestler ends up seated with some type of leg-hold and the other more-or-less over top of him) is whether the wrestler on top of the seated wrestler has NEUTRALIZED the seated-wrestler's leg-hold, whatever it might be, and the seated-wrestler CANNOT improve their position with the leg-hold. The general "criteria" used to determine this is control of both legs (i.e., seated wrestler controlled from hips down) and the head & shoulders of non-seated wrestler are above the seated-wrestler's waist (i.e., head not buried under legs, etc...). BoJo did not meet the "control criteria" for this specific situation as Mark Hall demonstrated the instant AFTER the still shot Ryan posted by improving his position using the high-crotch hold he had. Was not a TD under the stated "control criteria" rules for that specific situation which are discussed in "situation" section I believe.
Keep in mind what the ref announced after the video review:
"After further review, the call is confirmed. Two takedown green"
By the rule book, the ref didn't state the exact verbiage, for the situation, which is:
"After further review, the ruling on the mat is confirmed."
That statement (or the modified one that the ref made) is made when the video review confirms the on-the-mat ruling.
If the video was inconclusive, the statement would have been:
"After further review, the ruling on the mat stands."
"After further review, the call is confirmed. Two takedown green"
By the rule book, the ref didn't state the exact verbiage, for the situation, which is:
"After further review, the ruling on the mat is confirmed."
That statement (or the modified one that the ref made) is made when the video review confirms the on-the-mat ruling.
If the video was inconclusive, the statement would have been:
"After further review, the ruling on the mat stands."
Flo now running a full article with multiple pictures and video of Ryan's public tantrum on this matter - here's a hotlink:
sigh
that's an article from yesterday, which dunke linked in a post he made yesterday in this thread.
BTW, the FLO article only references that Hall's legs were "covered", but I believe the "Rules Interpretation" for this situation cites that the seated-wrestler's leg-hold must be "neutralized" such that the seated-wrestler cannot "improve their position" with the leg hold (i.e., Hall's legs being covered by BoJo's legs is relevant, but the official still must determine that the seated-wrestler cannot improve their position with their leg-hold before awarding a TD I believe. It is also relevant that the "covering" of Hall's legs was via kneeling over them, not controlled with the arms - BoJo's hands/arms were attempting to control Hall's upper-body and he was not behind him). Whether of not Hall could or couldn't still "improve his position using the leg-hold (or conversely, if BoJo had "neutralized" Hall's high-crotch hold) would be pretty conclusive in the video review as Hall did, in fact, improve his position dramatically directly after the still shot shown.
Last edited:
The rule for gaining control and over-coming an upper-body whizzer is also instructive here. In the "Rules Interpretations", it says that a wrestler gains control even with a whizzer in, if the wrestler gets fully behind the wrestler using the whizzer and is able to get a leg in on the far leg of the wrestler executing the whizzer. This is because a wrestler needs to show that they are FULLY behind their opponent to demonstrate upper-body control and defeat the whizzer. In this case, BoJo was attempting to control the upper-body of Hall with his hands/arms - not the lower-body with his hands/arms. BoJo never got behind Hall, nor did he drop down onto the lower body of Hall. Had BoJo been able to reach across Hall's back to the far shoulder, I think he has a TD. Conversely, if BoJo drops down onto the lower body with both arms and wraps Hall up, I think he has a TD even if Hall somehow maintained the leg-hold. But BoJo accomplished neither standard clearly imho, so no TD was the correct call.
