Final X Series: THANKS.....Well Done FLO

[Sportfan2017]

From the Promotion to the Production/Announcing to Mal's rapid post-match breakdowns......very well done FLO. Very enjoyable and such a great effort of promoting BOTH men and women's wrestling. It was the best promotion for women's wrestling I have seen. Kudos

 

[matter7172]

The women's matches were tremendous, I thought. Becka Leathers was sitting next to me for a bit tonight and we had a nice little conversation. She told me the good part about being young is that she gets more chances to make the team.

 

[Sportfan2017]

The women's matches were tremendous, I thought. Becka Leathers was sitting next to me for a bit tonight and we had a nice little conversation. She told me the good part about being young is that she gets more chances to make the team.

It is awesome to see that someone who came up a bit short in Lincoln Nebraska was at Lehigh Pa. to support wrestling. Wishing her the best.

 

[jpsolo]

I liked the Final X format. I’d like to see them add Greco in but not sure you’d want to make the night much longer. Maybe add Greco and start at 5 pm. The fact you can watch it for a couple hours on a Saturday night makes it nice instead of a whole day or weekend. 3 weekends in a row works, any more would be too much.

I think the attendance can improve but don’t think you’ll ever get sellout crowds on a Saturday in the Summer for International Wrestling.

Ideally it would be nice to make the US Open the World Team Qualifier with the finalists moving on to Final X in weights with no World Medalist. Pretty sure this won’t happen because they want the Open to have a Champion.

 

[RoarLions1]

So far, there have been enough positives stated, I'd be surprised if this wasn't done again next year. It's the next year (2020) that will be more interesting to me. The differences an Olympic year bring are curious.

 

[a_mshaffer]

So far, there have been enough positives stated, I'd be surprised if this wasn't done again next year. It's the next year (2020) that will be more interesting to me. The differences an Olympic year bring are curious.

so there is a 5% chance that the 2020 Olympics add weight classes? or is it 0?

 

[RoarLions1]

so there is a 5% chance that the 2020 Olympics add weight classes? or is it 0?

No idea...we can always hope!

 

[nerfstate]

I thought it was a great idea when it came out, and I think it went very well. Hope State College get's another one soon, but with 100% more Retherford (and shoot, maybe a Nolf and Nickal for giggles).

 

[CropDuster507]

I know everybody is sitting at home or on their phone asking themselves: "Yeah, but what did CropDuster think about Final X?" And I learned at a young age to give the people what they want, so I'm gonna tell you.

1. I wish Greco was involved, but Lindland wanted it done differently. I get that. Nothing Flo or USA could do, but could we perhaps push Final X to a bit later or hold Greco Trials earlier? I'm no women's wrestling guru, but for those Final X matches, we learned all about those competitors and I spectated (minus SC rd 3... beer friends called). You can't tell me that people wouldn't watch and connect with Greco on that stage.

2. The build up and format worked fine. I tell you what, every Monday, kids came into my club and asked, "Did you see Final X?" or "Who you got this weekend?" for three weeks +. That's cool, man. These trials aren't for the average, casual fan. I think that if you sat an average, casual fan (I did for SC) down to watch it, they'd manage (he did). However, this is about wrestling people. And wrestling people were into it. You gotta realize, for all of us mega-fans who post on internet forums, we're a different level of fan. Regular fans could turn on Flo or go watch it with someone who has Flo, turn it into a get-together. I love going to tournaments, but sometimes you miss matches. This alleviated that, and I appreciated it.

3. Locations were fine. People wanna piss and moan about locations and attendance. FINE. Here's my proposed solution: Whoever draws most in one year (I don't know who did this year, and it being in State College wouldn't help me, so this isn't biased), gets a guaranteed the next year. The other two are brought to wrestling hot beds. Want a guaranteed X the next year? You better show up!

4. My Final X streams worked fine. My Greco Trials stream did not. That pissed me off, but I cannot fathom why people try to tweet Pyles or Willie about it like they control that. I get that they're the faces of the company we see, but perhaps a separate Flo Twitter for Tech Support to alleviate that? It's gotta be some worker bees that do that shit, ain't it?

Anyways, I might have more thoughts, but they're not in my head currently. You're all welcome.

 

[dunkej01]

I dont doubt for a second that JB has the correct numbers.....however, lincoln realllllllllly spread their folks out in there.

Maybe trump counted the lincoln final X attendance???

 

[Ban Basketball]

I dont doubt for a second that JB has the correct numbers.....however, lincoln realllllllllly spread their folks out in there.

Maybe trump counted the lincoln final X attendance???

View embedded media

FAKE NEWS! WITCH HUNT!

 

[Gray52]

So here’s Flos wrap up of Final X series... I agree with some of it... but disagree with some of it as well.
https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6215720-the-future-of-final-x

1. I think it needs to be reduced to 2 weekends. Venues deserve more high profile matches for the price. I know... it would last too long. So what. For me personally... I can’t get away 3 straight Saturday nights during the summer. I think the in-venue attendance would easily increase by the 900+ that attended the Bethlehem event. I think having events on 3 straight Saturday nights is partly to blame for the low numbers. I’d love to see the 3 online viewership numbers. I’d bet they’re similar to the in-venue attendance.
2. Anyone who said State College wasn’t well attended wasn’t there. I thought the crowd was great. We cheered for Ohio State guys. We cheered for Kyle Dake. And we stayed for the final women’s match. It was a solid crowd. 2700ish seems like a low number to me.
3. I’m not sure they upped the pace, or if it was because I was watching live... but State College seemed to move along at a better pace than Nebraska.
4. I think the “season” needs to be simplified. Someone put out a flo-chart on how everything leads up to Final X. I gotta be honest, a few of us together couldn’t figure it out. It was too complex. Either simplify the “season,” or simplify the explanation. Note: i think the “season” concept is awesome.

 

[RoarLions1]

So here’s Flos wrap up of Final X series... I agree with some of it... but disagree with some of it as well.
https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6215720-the-future-of-final-x

1. I think it needs to be reduced to 2 weekends. Venues deserve more high profile matches for the price. I know... it would last too long. So what. For me personally... I can’t get away 3 straight Saturday nights during the summer. I think the in-venue attendance would easily increase by the 900+ that attended the Bethlehem event. I think having events on 3 straight Saturday nights is partly to blame for the low numbers. I’d love to see the 3 online viewership numbers. I’d bet they’re similar to the in-venue attendance.
2. Anyone who said State College wasn’t well attended wasn’t there. I thought the crowd was great. We cheered for Ohio State guys. We cheered for Kyle Dake. And we stayed for the final women’s match. It was a solid crowd. 2700ish seems like a low number to me.
3. I’m not sure they upped the pace, or if it was because I was watching live... but State College seemed to move along at a better pace than Nebraska.
4. I think the “season” needs to be simplified. Someone put out a flo-chart on how everything leads up to Final X. I gotta be honest, a few of us together couldn’t figure it out. It was too complex. Either simplify the “season,” or simplify the explanation. Note: i think the “season” concept is awesome.

Can't quit on 3 locations after one cycle. My opinion is to let this play out a couple years and see what happens. Choosing cities for future events will be interesting. Need hot-beds of wrestling to have higher attendance, and can't think of many cities much better than State College.

Agree about the State College crowd...thought it was more than 2783. Ushers, security, media, coaches, etc., wouldn't add that many. North and South sides mostly full, East and West not so much.

 

[nerfstate]

The 2700 number does seem low to me too. I really like Willie's writeup, good job @smalls103 . I think 3 is perfect. Sure, I would have loved to have seen all the marquis match-ups live, but I would have seen zero of them if they were all in one city too far away. Room to grow is NOT a bad thing, and if you cater to the fans who are willing to travel hundreds of miles for a weekend of wrestling only, you're only catering to the truly hardcore fan base--which is not going to grow the support for the sport. I think if we win this thing another year or two, we'll start to see bigger crowds (and maybe even a TV contract that will get this out from behind a paywall). In the mean time, kudos to Flo--you may be all about business, but that doesn't mean interests aren't aligned, and you aren't a good partner for fans, wrestlers, and administrators alike.

 

[jtothemfp]

I know everybody is sitting at home or on their phone asking themselves: "Yeah, but what did CropDuster think about Final X?" And I learned at a young age to give the people what they want, so I'm gonna tell you.

2. The build up and format worked fine. I tell you what, every Monday, kids came into my club and asked, "Did you see Final X?" or "Who you got this weekend?" for three weeks +. That's cool, man. These trials aren't for the average, casual fan. I think that if you sat an average, casual fan (I did for SC) down to watch it, they'd manage (he did). However, this is about wrestling people. And wrestling people were into it. You gotta realize, for all of us mega-fans who post on internet forums, we're a different level of fan. Regular fans could turn on Flo or go watch it with someone who has Flo, turn it into a get-together. I love going to tournaments, but sometimes you miss matches. This alleviated that, and I appreciated it.

Anyways, I might have more thoughts, but they're not in my head currently. You're all welcome.

And you're thanked! Lots of good takes there, but #2 jumped out at me most...

I think one helpful way to evaluate any of these notions about "bringing in more ___ fans" is to do something I'm normally 100% opposed to: throw some labels on us! We're looking at four main pockets of styles/product on the wrestling mat, each with its own levels of fandom:
1. Folkstyle (College men / HS boys & girls)
2. Men's Freestyle
3. Women's Freestyle (Women in HS / College / Post-college)
4. Greco-Roman

I'm a #1 fan first. College Men's wrestling is my number one jam. Also, arguably, given attendance numbers at college nationals vs non-college Freestyle events, you could say it's widely the most popular product American Wrestling puts on the mat.

Operating forward from that assumption / assertion, if I'm an Events-maker/promoter for any of Products 2, 3 or 4, guess who I'm targeting first? Right: Men's College Wrestling fans. How can we get just a few of those 18,000 March attendees to tune in? Some of the flo bros have done a little of this during Final X promos. I found Nomad's scoring guide tweets helpful, and even just the simple college fan guide to the competing Junior wrestlers (with college commitments) was super helpful. So I think the bundling is helpful--both to me personally and, I'll suppose, to the thousands of other existing Men's College Folkstyle Wrestling fans:

• Use the college accolades and histories of bros I already know, to promote their current product of Men's Freestyle
• Use that same event to bundle/give me more matches of a product I have little to no experience with in Women's Freestyle. Personally, this works for me. My WFS fandom is growing rapidly.

I think Lindland's decision to stagger Greco's trials outside of MFS dates--to broaden the pool of possible competitors--is somewhat similar. He's asking a similar question to "how can we get more fans?" but asking it about the athletes first. I'm largely ignorant about GR, but as an existing rabid college fan, I'm a super easy and willing target. Pitch me, GR, pitch me!

 

[CropDuster507]

And you're thanked! Lots of good takes there, but #2 jumped out at me most...

I think one helpful way to evaluate any of these notions about "bringing in more ___ fans" is to do something I'm normally 100% opposed to: throw some labels on us! We're looking at four main pockets of styles/product on the wrestling mat, each with its own levels of fandom:
1. Folkstyle (College men / HS boys & girls)
2. Men's Freestyle
3. Women's Freestyle (Women in HS / College / Post-college)
4. Greco-Roman

I'm a #1 fan first. College Men's wrestling is my number one jam. Also, arguably, given attendance numbers at college nationals vs non-college Freestyle events, you could say it's widely the most popular product American Wrestling puts on the mat.

Operating forward from that assumption / assertion, if I'm an Events-maker/promoter for any of Products 2, 3 or 4, guess who I'm targeting first? Right: Men's College Wrestling fans. How can we get just a few of those 18,000 March attendees to tune in? Some of the flo bros have done a little of this during Final X promos. I found Nomad's scoring guide tweets helpful, and even just the simple college fan guide to the competing Junior wrestlers (with college commitments) was super helpful. So I think the bundling is helpful--both to me personally and, I'll suppose, to the thousands of other existing Men's College Folkstyle Wrestling fans:

• Use the college accolades and histories of bros I already know, to promote their current product of Men's Freestyle
• Use that same event to bundle/give me more matches of a product I have little to no experience with in Women's Freestyle. Personally, this works for me. My WFS fandom is growing rapidly.

I think Lindland's decision to stagger Greco's trials outside of MFS dates--to broaden the pool of possible competitors--is somewhat similar. He's asking a similar question to "how can we get more fans?" but asking it about the athletes first. I'm largely ignorant about GR, but as an existing rabid college fan, I'm a super easy and willing target. Pitch me, GR, pitch me!

Pitch: You don't have to control an opponent on the way down to the mat and more points for the higher amplitude of attack.
Pitch over.

But yes, as much as it pains me, we need to connect to the college fanbase because our wrestling economy centers around collegiate wrestling or folkstyle in general. I agree.

Can't quit on 3 locations after one cycle. My opinion is to let this play out a couple years and see what happens. Choosing cities for future events will be interesting. Need hot-beds of wrestling to have higher attendance, and can't think of many cities much better than State College.

Agree about the State College crowd...thought it was more than 2783. Ushers, security, media, coaches, etc., wouldn't add that many. North and South sides mostly full, East and West not so much.

I'm telling you... Turn it into a contest. "WE CAN'T LET THOSE FUN-LOVING, 'WRESTLING STARTED IN 2009', NITTANY LION DBAG FANS BEAT US!" People take pride in attendances. Fanbases take pride in it. Immediately after World Cup, everyone wanted to take shots at Iowa. Right after Final X, everyone wanted to shit on each host city for not doing it justice. #1, wrestling fans are fickle and only wanna spend money when it's perfect for them, but act like they're fighters of justice for the sport. Similar to the slack-tivists on Twitter every time some big national ordeal happens. #2, we're all a bunch of competitive SOB's that probably don't have the ability to actually compete in much of anything besides Sunday golf, and we take fandom like an extension of ourselves (or, we act like it when it fits our narrative).

 

[RoarLions1]

Can't quit on 3 locations after one cycle. My opinion is to let this play out a couple years and see what happens. Choosing cities for future events will be interesting. Need hot-beds of wrestling to have higher attendance, and can't think of many cities much better than State College.

Agree about the State College crowd...thought it was more than 2783. Ushers, security, media, coaches, etc., wouldn't add that many. North and South sides mostly full, East and West not so much.

Saw you liked my post Willie. Still hot on Fresno? Care to explain? Very interested...

 

[CropDuster507]

This board is selective on it's curse words.

 

[jtothemfp]

And you're thanked! Lots of good takes there, but #2 jumped out at me most...

Haha, after posting that, I go & read Saylor's debrief and find this:

I've said for years: I don't understand the drop off between the rabid college appetite compared to the Senior level. Of course there is the school/college affinity, but it's akin to minor league baseball being more popular than the MLB; it just doesn't make much sense to me. Sorry, NCAA guys, but the Senior level is much more advanced. Isn't it amazing that NCAA's obliterates the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in attendance? That an inferior level of competition out-draws a superior one begs for reform.

That take is the opposite of what I was supporting above: that we college wrestling fans should be easy targets to sell the other formats to. Scolding us for not recognizing the less-popular format is actually superior is a pretty bumpy start. If an end-goal is to actually obtain some of these college fans, wouldn't putting more effort into actually understanding the drop off be more useful to future sales than asserting the whole mass of us is just wrong or ignorant? But flo bros wear so many different hats that their messaging frequently comes out sloppy.

He's at least got his eye on the problem / reality--that College Nationals wildly outdraws MFS events, and he appears to be working on a solution--to restructure unsuccessful MFS & WFS event formats to get closer to what's working in college.

And there's tons of other good stuff in there, like the notion of a FS Season:

But first and foremost, we are here because USA Wrestling and FloWrestling agreed that to build the sport, there had to be more of a 'season'. Like United World Wrestling's move to a two-day format, the wrestling world is finally starting to come around to the idea that for growth you must be able to package and market it to fans in the best way possible.

I also liked the apparent goal of trying to measure the successes, although their writeups fell a little flat for me, too:

1. Let's first start with something before a single match was wrestled - USA Wrestling got a boost financially. The value of one of their event properties increased dramatically.

I guess this is about the only way to list this as a win. Fans can't really hope to expect to read that dollar amount in print, for various understandable reasons. Without it, we're left to trust that Flo's payment to USAW was a big win for USAW, but unable to debate that value, vs., say, the cost of a flo subscription.

2. Some say attendance was poor. That's false. Attendance was higher in Lincoln than it was in 2013 Stillwater. Attendance in State College was greater than 2014 Madison. Attendance in Lehigh, although below expectations, was greater than 2015 Madison. That's three events in a span of two weeks that outperformed entire years of World Team Trials where all styles were held together.

There are lots of ways this could have been better presented and organized, but fans get the gist that Final X out-butt-seated previous iterations of FS events. I'm also fine with the contrasted pole being those previous iterations. If the goal is to continue to grow FS events, by adding easily-targeted college fans, there will be plenty of opportunities in the future to more specifically contrast vs college nationals. Year one is not that time.

3. But the single most beneficial aspect of Final X came as a result of continued engagement and viewership. For weeks people talked about, engaged with, and tuned in for Final X/USA Wrestling content. The equity gained by USA Wrestling, its events, and its athletes over the course of Final X is exponential and yet immeasurable. How do you put a number on Forrest Molinari becoming a star? For Women's wrestling gaining more respect and popularity? For the State College crowd applauding Rachel Watters in a losing effort?
How do you put a price tag on the collective boost that USA Wrestling and Senior-level athletes received by being the talk of the wrestling world over a prolonged duration as opposed to the past when the carnival came to town just once?

This one was the best written of the three measurable success assertions, and I agree, anecdotally, that "engagement" was much higher this year. He also uses "viewership", which of course has actual measurement metrics, presumably gathered and analyzed by flo back-office bros. It's also understandable that, wearing their Private Company Hat, flo might not want to share such metrics publicly. Fine, but it's another assertion where the fans are stuck trusting and without tools to use in debate.

The finish to the post moved fairly well into opinion about the future and we get to feel Saylor's passion for the sport again....

Now, I gotta go back & catch up on the matches I missed!

 

[smalls103]

i wasn't scolding. merely mentioning what is a rather odd reality to emphasize the need to grow the other styles/levels.

 

[smalls103]

Saw you liked my post Willie. Still hot on Fresno? Care to explain? Very interested...

yes! love fresno for many reasons and will advocate (whatever my opinion is worth) for them to get it next year.

1. Wrestling in the west needs all the help they can get.
2. Final X/USAW should be showcased in several markets (west/central/east)
3. Passionate area that averaged 5k fans for a team in their first year.
4. TWMC does a lot for the sport

 

[dicemen99]

Very good article. I thought from the start that this was more about eyeballs than fannies in the seats and Willie confirms. Kind of apples and oranges but you look at the success of professional sport leagues and it is directly tied to national exposure via TV. In the new era of consumption online, FLO is right now the best option that wrestling has.

And when you digest the fact that attendance was improved compared to this as a single event in the past, I can't see a compelling argument against continuing this.

 

[psumacw]

I think the college vs pro preference happens in most sports. If you put Browns vs. Giants in Bryant-Denny Stadium, I think you'd struggle to fill half the seats. Not because the product is worse, just that it's different and the spectators don't have as close a connection to the participants.

If you want butts in seats, I imagine the best way to do that is putting the events where the wrestlers went to school. Lincoln did well because of Burroughs and Green, State College did well because of Taylor, Bethlehem might have done better if Cruz was wrestling.

How about if you bring back gold from worlds, you get to choose a site for the next Final X? Could be a good problem to have if we have more than 3.