Fixing Inj. Def's

[NittanyChris]

(Mod - own thread)


There has not been nearly enough talk on here about Tom Ryan committing the most blatant example of ducking ever! Gallagher medical fofeits against Mitchell but miraculously is well enough to wrestle just hours later vs Sparks?!?! While it's comical that he lost to Sparks, that absolutely does not absolve Ryan of his disgusting lack of sportsmanship. If NCAA wrestling ever has serious thoughts of "growing the sport" this crap should be penalized and penalized harshly. What does the all-knowing board think?

 

[Reslo]

There has not been nearly enough talk on here about Tom Ryan committing the most blatant example of ducking ever! Gallagher medical fofeits against Mitchell but miraculously is well enough to wrestle just hours later vs Sparks?!?! While it's comical that he lost to Sparks, that absolutely does not absolve Ryan of his disgusting lack of sportsmanship. If NCAA wrestling ever has serious thoughts of "growing the sport" this crap should be penalized and penalized harshly. What does the all-knowing board think?

“Not how we would’ve handled it”

 

[Kale_yeah]

New rule if you med. Forfeit before the match your done for tournament. It's the Tom Ryan duck rule.

 

[mcpat]

New rule if you med. Forfeit before the match your done for tournament. It's the Tom Ryan duck rule.

To be clear, he took the mat and injury defaulted at 0:01. But completely agree. If I was his wrestler… or a potential recruit….

 

[pennstatepelly]

To be clear, he took the mat and injury defaulted at 0:01. But completely agree. If I was his wrestler… or a potential recruit….

Other than getting his ass kicked, what benefit is there in doing that? I’ve tried to at least give them the benefit of the doubt but can’t come up with one that even sort of makes sense.

 

[donboy6499]

Other than getting his ass kicked, what benefit is there in doing that? I’ve tried to at least give them the benefit of the doubt but can’t come up with one that even sort of makes sense.

Not seeing it either.

It makes no sense and smells of overthinking by 100x.

 

[mcpat]

Other than getting his ass kicked, what benefit is there in doing that? I’ve tried to at least give them the benefit of the doubt but can’t come up with one that even sort of makes sense.

Not giving up. That it’s not about winning or losing but how you compete and the effort you give. Those so-called life lessons that sports supposedly provide.

 

[jmadden1998]

Not giving up. That it’s not about winning or losing but how you compete and the effort you give. Those so-called life lessons that sports supposedly provide.

I remember when humility was one of those life lessons sports taught younger folks. That seems to all but have disappeared.

 

[mcpat]

I remember when humility was one of those life lessons sports taught younger folks. That seems to all but have disappeared.

What do you mean? We are all about humiliating others.

 

[jmadden1998]

What do you mean? We are all about humiliating others.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

New rule if you med. Forfeit before the match your done for tournament. It's the Tom Ryan duck rule.

Could just be gamed as a (fake) "injury" after first exchange. But even then, it would make the wrestler more complicit. And Staff will just say they couldn't get medical clearance in time, and argue the rule doesn't put athlete health first.

Generally speaking, let society/peers self-police whomever violates the clear intent of whatever (old school blackballing of unsportsmanlike gamesmen). I see very little, if any benefit, to a new rule that would affect 1 or 2 coaches. In this case, it had vert little if any effect on anybody. At least the Dresser Rule addressed something that hurt other athletes.

 

[El-Jefe]

There has not been nearly enough talk on here about Tom Ryan committing the most blatant example of ducking ever! Gallagher medical fofeits against Mitchell but miraculously is well enough to wrestle just hours later vs Sparks?!?! While it's comical that he lost to Sparks, that absolutely does not absolve Ryan of his disgusting lack of sportsmanship. If NCAA wrestling ever has serious thoughts of "growing the sport" this crap should be penalized and penalized harshly. What does the all-knowing board think?

It's not the most blatant example ever. It's the 2nd most blatant, after he did the same thing with his own son a decade ago.

New rule if you med. Forfeit before the match your done for tournament. It's the Tom Ryan duck rule.

LOL, get the emotion, but that rule is already in place. You can't qualify for nationals unless you compete or "compete" in 2 matches. Gallagher didn't forfeit the match, he "injury defaulted." (Scare quotes because we all know what he really did, still.)

Regulating this hits hard against the Law of Unintended Consequences. Specifically: now you have to determine a minimum time for an athlete to compete prior to injury default. What time will prevent the coaches from gaming the system? (Trick question -- there is none!) And how does that not screw over athletes with legitimate injuries?

 

[NittanyChris]

It's not the most blatant example ever. It's the 2nd most blatant, after he did the same thing with his own son a decade ago.


LOL, get the emotion, but that rule is already in place. You can't qualify for nationals unless you compete or "compete" in 2 matches. Gallagher didn't forfeit the match, he "injury defaulted." (Scare quotes because we all know what he really did, still.)

Regulating this hits hard against the Law of Unintended Consequences. Specifically: now you have to determine a minimum time for an athlete to compete prior to injury default. What time will prevent the coaches from gaming the system? (Trick question -- there is none!) And how does that not screw over athletes with legitimate injuries?

The rule needs fixing because, as you indicated, Ryan easily manipulated it. We all know it wasn't a real injury default. Now what should be done about it?

 

[El-Jefe]

The rule needs fixing because, as you indicated, Ryan easily manipulated it. We all know it wasn't a real injury default. Now what should be done about it?

What can be done about it that the coaches won't manipulate, that also doesn't screw over athletes with legitimate injuries?

A hint: Ryan is easily manipulating past fixes to the same issue. Anybody think he won't manipulate future fixes?

The current answer is punishing those athletes by downgrading their NCAA seeds -- like they did to Carter last year. Except, whoops, they didn't punish Carter at all. They punished Lewis and Griffith, and put the Rocco Welsh Hype Train on the bullet train tracks.

I'm open to ideas, but fully vet them. I'm not open to "we gotta do something!" because that always just goes down the same path we're down now.

 

[NittanyChris]

What can be done about it that the coaches won't manipulate, that also doesn't screw over athletes with legitimate injuries?

A hint: Ryan is easily manipulating past fixes to the same issue. Anybody think he won't manipulate future fixes?

The current answer is punishing those athletes by downgrading their NCAA seeds -- like they did to Carter last year. Except, whoops, they didn't punish Carter at all. They punished Lewis and Griffith, and put the Rocco Welsh Hype Train on the bullet train tracks.

I'm open to ideas, but fully vet them. I'm not open to "we gotta do something!" because that always just goes down the same path we're down now.

Well a very simple first step is if you medical forfeit OR injury default a match, you're done for the rest of whatever tournament you are wrestling. That would have prevented the absurdity that Ryan committed yesterday and it would protect kids as well. It's not a "solution", but it's a reasonable first step.

 

[El-Jefe]

Well a very simple first step is if you medical forfeit OR injury default a match, you're done for the rest of whatever tournament you are wrestling. That would have prevented the absurdity that Ryan committed yesterday and it would protect kids as well. It's not a "solution", but it's a reasonable first step.

Ed Ruth doesn't make the podium in his freshman year with that rule. He injury defaulted in the NCAA quarters.

Reasonable?

 

[Rocky_Smith]

The rule needs fixing because, as you indicated, Ryan easily manipulated it. We all know it wasn't a real injury default. Now what should be done about it?

How about-

This is embarrassing for the program, the coach and the athlete. The level of embarrassment is a measure of punishment.

 

[El-Jefe]

How about-

This is embarrassing for the program, the coach and the athlete. The level of embarrassment is a measure of punishment.

Would a positive infinity amount of embarrassment even begin to shame Ryan?

 

[pish69]

Make the wrestler and coach have to go thru rest of tourney with a sharpie marker on their foreheads saying “shame”

 

[El-Jefe]

BTW, lol at the mods creating a new thread for this topic and giving it the wrong title.

EDIT: mods corrected the title. It was "Fixing MFFs," which don't exist at conference tournaments.

 

[El-Jefe]

Make the wrestler and coach have to go thru rest of tourney with a sharpie marker on their foreheads saying “shame”

Make them spend the rest of the tourney wearing @Cstroke's assless chaps?

 

[Cstroke]

Make them spend the rest of the tourney wearing @Cstroke's assless chaps?

No kink shaming…

The title of this thread should be
“Fixing the Mfer’s Inj. Def’s”

 

[NittanyChris]

How about-

This is embarrassing for the program, the coach and the athlete. The level of embarrassment is a measure of punishment.

Unfortunately, we've seen that is not much of a deterrent at all to coaches like Ryan. We need something concrete to decrease the likelihood of gaming the system.

 

[danoftw]

When the guy Inj. Defs. he gets the benefit of the doubt. When he shows up healthy to wrestle the next round the ref points at Ryan and makes the jag-off motion and throws a scam/embarrassment brick at him. No point deduction or penalty, just ridicule.

 

[Cstroke]

Lolz the mods are putting in work

 

[El-Jefe]

Unfortunately, we've seen that is not much of a deterrent at all to coaches like Ryan. We need something concrete to decrease the likelihood of gaming the system.

"Need" means that outcomes are being affected by this. Are they? Was Gallagher beating Mesenbrink? Would he have lost to Lillard if he had actually faced Mesenbrink?

Or does this just offend our sensibilities?

The most obvious solution, that fixes another problem with NCAA qualification, is to impose a max # of auto qualifiers per conference, and put the rest of those slots into the at-large pool. Ridiculous for B10 to get 10 or 11 spots. This issue is much less likely if guys had to finish top 5. BUT: this would not have prevented Carter last year or Gallagher this year. They'd both get at-large spots anyway.

There is no 100% solution.

 

[jmadden1998]

"Need" means that outcomes are being affected by this.

Are they? Was Gallagher beating Mesenbrink? Would he have lost to Lillard if he had actually faced Mesenbrink?

Or does this just offend our sensibilities?

Exactly, losing a match on purpose is "gaming the system?" What advantage is gained?

 

[Cstroke]

Being fresh for the next match especially if he’s cutting a ton.
No rule needed I just hope the media/fans paste him over it.
Saw on the hawks board he got a little hate, one calling it a bush league move.

 

[baccafarmer]

(Mod - own thread)


There has not been nearly enough talk on here about Tom Ryan committing the most blatant example of ducking ever! Gallagher medical fofeits against Mitchell but miraculously is well enough to wrestle just hours later vs Sparks?!?! While it's comical that he lost to Sparks, that absolutely does not absolve Ryan of his disgusting lack of sportsmanship. If NCAA wrestling ever has serious thoughts of "growing the sport" this crap should be penalized and penalized harshly. What does the all-knowing board think?

Not a deal breaker. If a guy and his coach want to look timid . . . Let them! Years from
now they will look back with regret.

 

[NittanyChris]

Exactly, losing a match on purpose is "gaming the system?" What advantage is gained?

Seriously? You're ok with kids "losing a match on purpose"? What's the point of real competition then? Just make it a story, write a script for outcomes like the WWE and call it a day.

 

[Dogwelder]

Not a deal breaker. If a guy and his coach want to look timid . . . Let them! Years from
now they will look back with regret.

 

[BOSCO2]

Being fresh for the next match especially if he’s cutting a ton.
No rule needed I just hope the media/fans paste him over it.
Saw on the hawks board he got a little hate, one calling it a bush league move.

Exactly, losing a match on purpose is "gaming the system?" What advantage is gained?

Correct. How did it improve tOSU situation in this tournament? Not at all. I don't recall them winning when he pulled the same tactic with his son. I imagine it in no way helps him in recruiting, so, if he wants to be an asshole, it's his choice. It sucks, but I can only laugh at his decisions.

 

[jmadden1998]

Seriously? You're ok with kids "losing a match on purpose"? What's the point of real competition then? Just make it a story, write a script for outcomes like the WWE and call it a day.

I'm not agreeing with what Ryan is doing. I'm disagreeing with you about "gaming the system". Also, if you punish the fakers, then you are punishing real injuries. Like I said before, if you remove a competitor from a tournament after 1 injury default, Starocci would have not qualified for nationals last year. And I'm sure you wouldn't have been fine with that.

 

[El-Jefe]

Being fresh for the next match especially if he’s cutting a ton.
No rule needed I just hope the media/fans paste him over it.
Saw on the hawks board he got a little hate, one calling it a bush league move.

Normally this would make sense, but Gallagher had actually wrestled once before (vs Mayfield). Mesenbrink would've been his 2nd match of the day. Unlike the Jake Ryan situation, where Ohio State forfeited the opener.

Timing-wise, this is more like when Ruth defaulted in the NCAA quarters and then wrestled in the blood round, both being in the same session. The obvious difference is Ruth being injured during the match itself.

Wonder what the reaction is on the Ohio State boards. Because nobody is influenced by the Hawk boards. Ryan might care a (very) little bit if his own boosters are aghast at it.

 

[Cstroke]

It’s probably exhausting having to stand up for all those escapes.

 

[Nitlion1986]

Normally this would make sense, but Gallagher had actually wrestled once before (vs Mayfield). Mesenbrink would've been his 2nd match of the day. Unlike the Jake Ryan situation, where Ohio State forfeited the opener.

Timing-wise, this is more like when Ruth defaulted in the NCAA quarters and then wrestled in the blood round, both being in the same session. The obvious difference is Ruth being injured during the match itself.

Wonder what the reaction is on the Ohio State boards. Because nobody is influenced by the Hawk boards. Ryan might care a (very) little bit if his own boosters are aghast at it.

OSU boosters aren't going to poo-poo Ryan anymore than we would Cael.

The move is kind of chicken shyt, but if Ryan and the kid are OK embarrassing the kid like that so be it.

 

[Cstroke]

Not much said about it on the Ohio boards.
Funniest quote I read, paraphrasing obviously. Ohio st taking the pen stare route and definitely not peaking for big 10’s.

 

[El-Jefe]

OSU boosters aren't going to poo-poo Ryan anymore than we would Cael.

The move is kind of chicken shyt, but if Ryan and the kid are OK embarrassing the kid like that so be it.

The one board where they have to use their real names has occasionally criticized Ryan. And some of those guys are connected to the program.

But you're probably right. They'll likely bite their lips, maybe hard. At least publicly.

 

[slushhead]

If the guy wants to concede the match without going through a bunch of fakery, let him. He deserves the L, does indeed take the L, and has to live with it. The winner moves on risk-free. We miss 1 desired match in the early going, BFD.

I’d be way more bothered if a guy faked a match, giving the appearance of throwing it. Then we’re left to suspect the worst (shenanigans that actually do cause irreparable harm to the sport).

 

[mcpat]

If the guy wants to concede the match without going through a bunch of fakery, let him. He deserves the L, does indeed take the L, and has to live with it. The winner moves on risk-free. We miss 1 desired match in the early going, BFD.

I’d be way more bothered if a guy faked a match, giving the appearance of throwing it. Then we’re left to suspect the worst (shenanigans that actually do cause irreparable harm to the sport).

But is that fair to his next opponent they may have lost an OT dogfight?