Foley's Friday Mailbag for 1/18/19

[Tom McAndrew]

a Q&A about PSU wrestling, a Q&A that includes Vincenzo Joseph

For those keeping track, this is week 120, and despite promises he tweeted, no response to Flo's article about Olympic reffing corruption from Foley.

Mike C's game is in decline. He only got 4 of the 10 questions this week.

You can access this week's Mailbag at THIS LINK

 

[jschrantz]

One of Foley’s better mailbags. Makes for interesting conversation on riding time and pushout points anyways which I know we’ve had here, but perhaps others may enjoy pondering. As for the continued push on making duals a family event with much success, zzzzzz....maybe try more snow cones and balloon animals ?

 

[dunkej01]

I agree with him that at the HS level there probably are too many weight classes. But would like to see the FF data before going out on the limb to far. However, it does feel like there are too many FFs.

Bloomsburg HS had i think 10 actual contested bouts this past week against Southern Columbia and Selinsgrove. Its a shame really.

 

[jammenz]

Foley "international wrestling is growing and is arguably the healthiest it's ever been...". Could you not say the same thing about college wrestling?

Foley has good points in limiting the reviews and stop-match warnings, but they are overshadowed by his weekly UWW paid endorsements. Why did he omit the shot clock and the two-point-almost-a-takedown in his change the rules to freestyle rant? Maybe we'll see them next week.

 

[RoarLions1]

I agree with him that at the HS level there probably are too many weight classes. But would like to see the FF data before going out on the limb to far. However, it does feel like there are too many FFs.

Bloomsburg HS had i think 10 actual contested bouts this past week against Southern Columbia and Selinsgrove. Its a shame really.

Looked at some high school data. In the 9 years from 2009-10 through 2017-18;

-- School enrollment increased by about 3% overall
-- Wrestling (boys) participation in the same time frame decreased by 10%
-- The AVERAGE number of wrestlers per team went from 26.3 in 2009-10, to 22.8 in 2017-18, or a 13% drop
-- The high school participation is broken down by state for years through 2014, but I did not look at that data, just big picture

Point is, fewer wrestlers means more forfeits, in theory and in practice. With 22.8 wrestlers per team, and high variation (guessing but pretty sure, some teams around the country have < 14, others > 30), forfeits will follow.

Will fewer weight classes reduce the number of forfeits? I think yes

Will fewer weight classes cause more kids to quit, with fewer starter's spots? I also think yes

Catch 22.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Looked at some high school data. In the 9 years from 2009-10 through 2017-18;

-- School enrollment increased by about 3% overall
-- Wrestling (boys) participation in the same time frame decreased by 10%
-- The AVERAGE number of wrestlers per team went from 26.3 in 2009-10, to 22.8 in 2017-18, or a 13% drop
-- The high school participation is broken down by state for years through 2014, but I did not look at that data, just big picture

Point is, fewer wrestlers means more forfeits, in theory and in practice. With 22.8 wrestlers per team, and high variation (guessing but pretty sure, some teams around the country have < 14, others > 30), forfeits will follow.

Will fewer weight classes reduce the number of forfeits? I think yes

Will fewer weight classes cause more kids to quit, with fewer starter's spots? I also think yes

Catch 22.

One of the big reasons I'm against cutting weight classes. The other is it will increase weight cutting as wrestlers try to find a spot in the lineup and the gap between classes gets bigger (unavoidable if you drop classes). The key number for me in all of this is the number of teams. The number of wrestlers nation wide (going back to the 60s) has largely remained in the same range going up and down, but never growing or shrinking for too long. However, the number of teams continues to grow. Part of this is new parts of the country getting into the sport.

So, what is the answer? Reduce the number of teams competing. I don't mean cut them, I mean combine them. The same programs tend to have #s issues year after year. They already work out on their own, it wouldn't be that difficult to simply combine for duals. You could even let them compete separately for tournaments if you'd rather.

 

[kingslayer_85]

It seems that today kids drop out of wrestling (any other sport) when they see that they won't start right away. I recall when I wrestled in the 80's many kids would transition to the high school team knowing that they may only start 1, 2 or 3 years but stuck with it. Today that just doesn't happen where I am at, kids look for other options and there are many more sports today available for them to search where they can step into a starting role. I don't see this as a positive trend in society and it doesn't just pertain to wrestling .

 

[El-Jefe]

So, what is the answer? Reduce the number of teams competing. I don't mean cut them, I mean combine them. The same programs tend to have #s issues year after year. They already work out on their own, it wouldn't be that difficult to simply combine for duals. You could even let them compete separately for tournaments if you'd rather.

That may end up being a necessity but will be a blimp sized bitter pill to swallow in perpetually depressed rural areas whose only positive identity may be the local school sports teams. Lose your identity by merging with your rival? Ugh.

Also some very successful wrestling programs are at small high schools. Reynolds HS (PA powerhouse near Erie) enrollment is under 100 total per grade.

The solution is to build a better base with good youth programs, supportive parents, and coaches who keep it fun. Easier said than done.

 

[OkieSpladle]

That may end up being a necessity but will be a blimp sized bitter pill to swallow in perpetually depressed rural areas whose only positive identity may be the local school sports teams. Lose your identity by merging with your rival? Ugh.

Also some very successful wrestling programs are at small high schools. Reynolds HS (PA powerhouse near Erie) enrollment is under 100 total per grade.

The solution is to build a better base with good youth programs, supportive parents, and coaches who keep it fun. Easier said than done.

If you're filling the lineup, you don't need to combine with anyone. If you're not, what sort of identity do you have? I would establish a threshold of forfeit percentage in duals. Any team that stays above the line over a 2 year span is fine. This would also encourage coaches to wrestle their athletes rather than opting out/ducking.

I do agree that, ideally, programs would build their feeders and this wouldn't be a problem, but in the era of RTCs and super clubs, I'm not sure every school can do that even if they tried.

 

[Diego Badman]

So, what is the answer? Reduce the number of teams competing. I don't mean cut them, I mean combine them. The same programs tend to have #s issues year after year. They already work out on their own, it wouldn't be that difficult to simply combine for duals. You could even let them compete separately for tournaments if you'd rather.

I've often thought about this solution, myself. We have one team around here who is contesting only 4 weight classes. Unless there is a bout that has no match, they are forfeiting 10 weight classes. In fact, I noted one instance, and I'm sure there are others, that a match had only 5 contested weights, the team with 5 wrestlers won all of them with bonus. But, they lost the dual meet because they forfeited 7 weight classes.

 

[Antaeus]

Looked at some high school data. In the 9 years from 2009-10 through 2017-18;

-- School enrollment increased by about 3% overall
-- Wrestling (boys) participation in the same time frame decreased by 10%
-- The AVERAGE number of wrestlers per team went from 26.3 in 2009-10, to 22.8 in 2017-18, or a 13% drop
-- The high school participation is broken down by state for years through 2014, but I did not look at that data, just big picture

Point is, fewer wrestlers means more forfeits, in theory and in practice. With 22.8 wrestlers per team, and high variation (guessing but pretty sure, some teams around the country have < 14, others > 30), forfeits will follow.

Will fewer weight classes reduce the number of forfeits? I think yes

Will fewer weight classes cause more kids to quit, with fewer starter's spots? I also think yes

Catch 22.

Although these recent trends are somewhat interesting, us old timers remember a different sport environment than the one wrestling finds itself today. Many of us lightweights wrestled because when you were 83lbs. in 9th grade it was the only sport you could compete against people your size and earn a varsity letter and hopefully attract chicks (at least the smaller ones). Today many kids view sports as simply one option of many available to them in their attempt to build a resume build to help them get into the college of their choice. Maybe a reduction in # of weight classes isn’t really a recognition of some perceived failure in the sport, but rather a necessary adjustment due to the fact that wrestling simply is competing against so many other (and easier) options for students making pragmatic decisions about what will help them take the next step in their lives.

 

[amattaro]

My high school had kids go on to win DI and DII national titles as recently as 2003 and is down to 7 kids. Probably speaks to a larger need for school consolidation in the WPIAL.

 

[chrisrn1965]

Foley "international wrestling is growing and is arguably the healthiest it's ever been...". Could you not say the same thing about college wrestling?

Foley has good points in limiting the reviews and stop-match warnings, but they are overshadowed by his weekly UWW paid endorsements. Why did he omit the shot clock and the two-point-almost-a-takedown in his change the rules to freestyle rant? Maybe we'll see them next week.

Wow I agree with Jammenz. What is going on! Please, please, please do not make Folkstyle into Freestyle.

 

[nerfstate]

 

[nitlion6]

A couple points.
A neutral push out rule would be a good thing.

Foley is a smart enough dude, but many times I struggle to find the reasoning and logic behind his conclusions.
A takedown is more exciting than a fall? Most back points come as a transition off a takedown other than put on their back from the top.

While attending wrestling events, which gets the louder more exciting response from a crowd a takedown or a fall?
A show of hands please.
A takedown? Mr. Foley, has his hand up.
A fall? Oh my, with all of these hands up I can't even see Mr. Foley.

Back points as a result of transitioning from a takedown IS the more frequent occurance in freestyle. Of course there is very little time spent mat wrestling in freestyle so that makes sense.

Back points or falls in folk style result more so from riding. Whether Zain's bow and arrow, Spencer Lee's bar and tilt or bar and half. Jason can do the feet to back thing, but most often Jason uses multiple TDs and some riding to just brow beat someone into submission. In freestyle most of Jason's falls would have been tech falls after the 5th takedown. Hell some matches would last about 28 seconds. Bo is the same. Bo certainly can feet to back people, but most of Bo's falls have been a result of Bo using a combination of takedowns and mat wrestling to bully his opponent into a vulnerable position that Bo then uses to flatten his opponents.

Basically Foley argues here that most falls or back exposures in freestyle are a result of transitions off of takedowns so we need to pretend this is also true in folk style. So as long as we pretend a non-truth is instead a truth it is easy to understand mat wrestling is unnecessary. My biggest issue with Foley is this is how he presents most of his arguments.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Exactly, Zain is the perfect example, out of all our hammers, Zain was least likely to go feet to back and as good as he was, it usually took him a period or two to tenderize his opponent into agreeing to being pinned.

 

[El-Jefe]

A couple points.
Back points or falls in folk style result more so from riding.

Back points is probably true because, well, it's impossible or near impossible to execute most tilts from neutral.

Falls ... I'd like to see some data. Jason, Bo, Q got more from feet. And that's just PSU.

To get back to Foley -- those 4 ideas weren't outrageous or original. The worst parts of his tweet are his hero complex (Save the sport? Please.) and knowing that he won't stop until he turns the sport into rhythmic gymnastics.

 

[nitlion6]

Back points is probably true because, well, it's impossible or near impossible to execute most tilts from neutral.

Falls ... I'd like to see some data. Jason, Bo, Q got more from feet. And that's just PSU.

To get back to Foley -- those 4 ideas weren't outrageous or original. The worst parts of his tweet are his hero complex (Save the sport? Please.) and knowing that he won't stop until he turns the sport into rhythmic gymnastics.

Of course I do not have any data, but many of Jason's feet to back pins come from after brow beating kid into submission, Jason then from the top mat position comes out front and waits for the kid to move to get up and cranks him. In freestyle there is no need for the kid to move upward, he can lie on his belly until the ref puts them up.

 

[a_mshaffer]

Of course I do not have any data, but many of Jason's feet to back pins come from after brow beating kid into submission, Jason then from the top mat position comes out front and waits for the kid to move to get up and cranks him. In freestyle there is no need for the kid to move upward, he can lie on his belly until the ref puts them up.

a lot of those pins come without the ref giving the escape point even though they move out front.

 

[KCLion]

One of the big reasons I'm against cutting weight classes. The other is it will increase weight cutting as wrestlers try to find a spot in the lineup and the gap between classes gets bigger (unavoidable if you drop classes). The key number for me in all of this is the number of teams. The number of wrestlers nation wide (going back to the 60s) has largely remained in the same range going up and down, but never growing or shrinking for too long. However, the number of teams continues to grow. Part of this is new parts of the country getting into the sport.

So, what is the answer? Reduce the number of teams competing. I don't mean cut them, I mean combine them. The same programs tend to have #s issues year after year. They already work out on their own, it wouldn't be that difficult to simply combine for duals. You could even let them compete separately for tournaments if you'd rather.

My PA HS already combines with our hated rival (from my days 40 yrs ago) for football.