Freeman Aquatic Center

[bjf1991]

Freeman Aq Center
Univ of Minnesota
Considered one of the top 10 natatoriums in the nation.

http://www.collegeranker.com/features/best-collegiate-competition-swimming-pools/


73,000 sq ft
Built 1990 for $11,000,000 ($21,000,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)

[Calculator available here:
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Inflation_Rate_Calculator.asp ]

$2.5 Million in additional renovations to bring things up to date in 2012

_________________


Canham Aquatic Center
University of Michigan
Home of the top swimming program in the B1G

59,000 sq ft
Built in 1988 for $8,500,000 ($17,500,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)
Last renovated 1998

 

[Art]

Freeman Aq Center
Univ of Minnesota
Considered one of the top 10 natatoriums in the nation.

http://www.collegeranker.com/features/best-collegiate-competition-swimming-pools/


73,000 sq ft
Built 1990 for $11,000,000 ($21,000,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)

[Calculator available here:
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Inflation_Rate_Calculator.asp ]

$2.5 Million in additional renovations to bring things up to date in 2012

_________________


Canham Aquatic Center
University of Michigan
Home of the top swimming program in the B1G

59,000 sq ft
Built in 1988 for $8,500,000 ($17,500,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)
Last renovated 1998

Both are excellent pools. Freeman is better than Canham. Better amenities and considered to be "faster." Both play host to Big Ten Championship meets. Only Freeman has hosted NCAA championships recently.

Throw another one into the mix, the McAuley Swim Center at Georgia Tech. Built in 1996 for about $22mm. Oh, yeah, almost forgot that it's original purpose was to host the swimming competition for the Atlanta Olympic Games.

 

[CF LION]

Freeman Aq Center
Univ of Minnesota
Considered one of the top 10 natatoriums in the nation.

http://www.collegeranker.com/features/best-collegiate-competition-swimming-pools/


73,000 sq ft
Built 1990 for $11,000,000 ($21,000,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)

[Calculator available here:
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Inflation_Rate_Calculator.asp ]

$2.5 Million in additional renovations to bring things up to date in 2012

_________________


Canham Aquatic Center
University of Michigan
Home of the top swimming program in the B1G

59,000 sq ft
Built in 1988 for $8,500,000 ($17,500,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)
Last renovated 1998

Both square pretty close to my WAG of $300/sf in another thread. So, at 130,000+ sf we'd be looking at around $40M for the PSU Nat.

 

[Raffycorn]

How big/expensive is Bucknell's facility? I'd imagine Penn State will be looking at beating out their bid for the PIAA championships when the new facility is built.

 

[Art]

Both square pretty close to my WAG of $300/sf in another thread. So, at 130,000+ sf we'd be looking at around $40M for the PSU Nat.

Replacement cost of Ithe UPUI Nat, which is hosting thus year's NCAA's and has hosted both national championships and Olympic trials, is estimated at $75mm. Can't tell you how good that estimate is but that's the territory at which Barbour is aiming.

 

[CF LION]

Replacement cost of Ithe UPUI Nat, which is hosting thus year's NCAA's and has hosted both national championships and Olympic trials, is estimated at $75mm. Can't tell you how good that estimate is but that's the territory at which Barbour is aiming.

Sheesh. That's a lot of dinero for a pool.

 

[Art]

Sheesh. That's a lot of dinero for a pool.

Indeed. Yale has a renovation on the table for $47mm (I've been told that it is complicated from a construction standpoint).

 

[artsandletters]

Sheesh. That's a lot of dinero for a pool.

No slides or nothin'.

 

[Art]

No slides or nothin'.

Georgia Tech has one, all 185 feet of it, in it's swim center.

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[Nittany.Lion]

Freeman Aq Center
Univ of Minnesota
Considered one of the top 10 natatoriums in the nation.

http://www.collegeranker.com/features/best-collegiate-competition-swimming-pools/


73,000 sq ft
Built 1990 for $11,000,000 ($21,000,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)

[Calculator available here:
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Inflation_Rate_Calculator.asp ]

$2.5 Million in additional renovations to bring things up to date in 2012

_________________


Canham Aquatic Center
University of Michigan
Home of the top swimming program in the B1G

59,000 sq ft
Built in 1988 for $8,500,000 ($17,500,000 adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars)
Last renovated 1998

FYI.... the inflation rate for construction is consistently higher than the normal inflation rate, there also are other variables not included in the standard construction inflation rate noted in this link like locality, terrain, size, complexity, type of project, etc. For example, hospital construction in 1987 cost $125/sf, now it would cost anywhere from $500 to $1000/sf, much higher inflation that the standard construction inflation rate.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

Replacement cost of Ithe UPUI Nat, which is hosting thus year's NCAA's and has hosted both national championships and Olympic trials, is estimated at $75mm. Can't tell you how good that estimate is but that's the territory at which Barbour is aiming.

Did you find confirmation that Barbour is aiming for $75mm?

 

[Art]

FYI.... the inflation rate for construction is consistently higher than the normal inflation rate, there also are other variables not included in the standard construction inflation rate noted in this link like locality, terrain, size, complexity, type of project, etc. For example, hospital construction in 1987 cost $125/sf, now it would cost anywhere from $500 to $1000/sf, much higher inflation that the standard construction inflation rate.

Fair enough. So let's get back to basics: why does Penn State need a really expensive swimmin' hole?

 

[kgilbert78]

Replacement cost of Ithe UPUI Nat, which is hosting thus year's NCAA's and has hosted both national championships and Olympic trials, is estimated at $75mm. Can't tell you how good that estimate is but that's the territory at which Barbour is aiming.

Used for PanAm Games too, as I recall.

 

[Art]

Did you find confirmation that Barbour is aiming for $75mm?

No, but a recent estimate of the replacement cost of the IU Nat, is $75mm. It's not a 1:1 comparison based on the drawings. But using your estimate of construction costs, the building is north of $65mm. Add site costs and we're in the neighborhood. Do you think she can aim for less?

 

[Nittany.Lion]

Replacement cost of Ithe UPUI Nat, which is hosting thus year's NCAA's and has hosted both national championships and Olympic trials, is estimated at $75mm. Can't tell you how good that estimate is but that's the territory at which Barbour is aiming.

That's a renovation project, so not a fair comparison. I saw two numbers about the cost of that construction $20 and $30mm and that facility is almost twice the size as PSU's.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

No, but a recent estimate of the replacement cost of the IU Nat, is $75mm. It's not a 1:1 comparison based on the drawings. But using your estimate of construction costs, the building is north of $65mm. Add site costs and we're in the neighborhood. Do you think she can aim for less?

Yes, preliminary renderings suggest it's a high end facility.... my numbers are just informed guesses.

 

[Art]

That's a renovation project, so not a fair comparison. I saw two numbers about the cost of that construction $20 and $30mm and that facility is almost twice the size as PSU's.

That's not a renovation, it's an estimate of replacement cost. But let's drop that. You estimated $500/square foot. Do you want to back away from that?

 

[Art]

Yes, preliminary renderings suggest it's a high end facility.... my numbers are just informed guesses.

Here's a recent one: Denison University opened the Trumbull Aquatic Center in 2012 at a cost of $20mm. About 76,000 square feet. Smaller competition pool. Diving well has no towers. No recreation pool. Spectator capacity about 750.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

Here's a recent one: Denison University opened the Trumbull Aquatic Center in 2012 at a cost of $20mm. About 76,000 square feet. Smaller competition pool. Diving well has no towers. No recreation pool. Spectator capacity about 750.

This link says that Turnbull aquatic center cost $35mm and was 28ksf which equates to $1250/sf, so no, I'm not backing off my SWAG (with the information any of us have that the best we can do is guess) You just can't compare these facilities cleanly and it just becomes an exercise in wheel spinning.

edit: school site says the pool was part of larger project, it looks like the pool was 28 ksf and cost $20mm, just over $700/sf (without a diving tower).... dedicated aquatic center costs are all over the place.

 

[Art]

This link says that Turnbull aquatic center cost $35mm and was 28ksf which equates to $1250/sf, so no, I'm not backing off my SWAG (with the information any of us have that the best we can do is guess) You just can't compare these facilities cleanly and it just becomes an exercise in wheel spinning.

The following link says that the Trumbull Center was part of a larger project that cost $38mm

http://denisonbigred.com/recreation/trumbull_faq
http://denisonbigred.com/recreation/trumbull_faq
And the source for that information is Denison University itself. But, heck, if you wanna go with $35mm for a smaller, less functional facility, then $75mm for what Barbour wants to build sounds good to me.

 

[Nittany.Lion]

The following link says that the Trumbull Center was part of a larger project that cost $38mm

http://denisonbigred.com/recreation/trumbull_faq
And the source for that information is Denison University itself. But, heck, if you wanna go with $35mm for a smaller, less functional facility, then $75mm for what Barbour wants to build sounds good to me.

check my edit above.

 

[Art]

check my edit above.

Fair enough. But getting back to the point, you're right, we don't know what the new PSU natatorium will cost., so let's wait and see. I think we can agree that it won't be cheap and I still have questions whether it will be financially prudent to build such a facility.

 

[wex18]

Cal-Berkeley recently opened a new aquatics center, built with donors' money for about $18 million. The lead architect on the project is my nephew, who is a huge Penn State fan (though he went to Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo).

http://news.berkeley.edu/2016/09/02/fasten-your-goggles-new-aquatic-center-is-on-its-way/

 

[bjf1991]

Cal-Berkeley recently opened a new aquatics center, built with donors' money for about $18 million. The lead architect on the project is my nephew, who is a huge Penn State fan (though he went to Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo).

http://news.berkeley.edu/2016/09/02/fasten-your-goggles-new-aquatic-center-is-on-its-way/

If any University in the country has learned the hard lessons wrt the penalty to be paid for uncontrolled, unfunded, wasteful, ego-driven spending.......it is Cal

Without a doubt - and there isn't even a close second in that category...............Yet

 

[loosey goosey]

Marylands is super nice,but they had to drop swimming because of $.Then they joined the Big Ten.

 

[Art]

Cal-Berkeley recently opened a new aquatics center, built with donors' money for about $18 million. The lead architect on the project is my nephew, who is a huge Penn State fan (though he went to Cal Poly-San Luis Obispo).

http://news.berkeley.edu/2016/09/02/fasten-your-goggles-new-aquatic-center-is-on-its-way/

That's an outdoor facility. It's purpose is purely for training so the pool isn't designed to be fast and it lacks the amenities proposed for the new PSU center.

But thanks for the link. It tells us that for $18mm you ain't getting much.

 

[Sharkies]

I still have questions whether it will be financially prudent to build such a facility.

There's no question that it won't be. Only Penn State football, men's hockey, and men's basketball are net-cash-positive (based on Ben Jones tweets from yesterday)... and yet the Pegula "only" cost $88m to build...

 

[kgilbert78]

There's no question that it won't be. Only Penn State football, men's hockey, and men's basketball are net-cash-positive (based on Ben Jones tweets from yesterday)... and yet the Pegula "only" cost $88m to build...

Which really didn't matter as they did get the funding for that from a donor.

 

[Sharkies]

Which really didn't matter as they did get the funding for that from a donor.

True -- will we see a $50m donation to get someone's name on the new Aquatic center? I somehow doubt it.

 

[Still in State College]

The funny thing is Pegula and hockey don't happen without 100% donor funding. I know it was a new program but they have shown that the interest was there.

 

[Art]

Which really didn't matter as they did get the funding for that from a donor.

True -- will we see a $50m donation to get someone's name on the new Aquatic center? I somehow doubt it.

You get a donor like Pegula who loves PSU, loves a particular sport and/or wants his name on a building then writes a big check to pay for it and you're golden. But how many whales like that are out there. My sense is not to many.

So the alternative on the philanthropy side is to launch a broad-based campaign to solicit a boatload of smaller contributions in the three- to six-figure size extending well beyond the core of about $25mm that the Athletic Department receives on an annual basis. As an aside, in the years since the renovations of Lasch and Morgan have taken place, the contribution level hasn't budged much.

Undertaking a broad-based campaign to support facilities construction to be completed with specific time frames is complex. What troubles me is the horizons that have been set. Barbour doesn't want to begin construction on any of the Phase I facilities until $120mm is raised. What happens if that target isn't met? Are the buildings scaled back? Are some buildings left unbuilt? And what ramifications does failure have for the future projects? Don't think it's a great idea to hold the fate of necessary work to be done on Beaver Stadium and the BJC to that of facilities for sports that will never make a dime.

Having written this, I fully expect Barbour to shortly announce a contribution in the mid nine-figures just to make me look foolish (not that I need any help in that regard). If so, then I guess I've served some useful purpose for a change.

 

[PSU77sh]

Why did they apparently shelve the plans for the addition to the Nat and tennis center that were drawn up in 2011/12? I saw the plans and was told they were "close" to what was going to be built. Don't know the anticipated cost back then, but the plan for the pool was to add on to the present Nat along Curtin Road where the outdoor tennis courts are now. The idea was to add on the lanes for the teams, events, etc but keep the current pools for the student population/recreation.

 

[Evan Ceg]

The new Natatorium will be built in the present location or on the north edge of the outdoor track, which would be changed from the current east-west to a north-south configuration. In either case, the plan appears to be a completely new Nat building, and I'm surprised that they're not going to simply add the 50-meter state-of-the-art Olympic pool and 10-meter diving well as an eastern side extension to the existing Natatorium. Why not take advantage of the existing pools for recreation and just add what would be mostly a varsity facility?

It might be that the Office of Physical Plant (OPP) has its eye on the site of the current Nat for an academic (probably science) building.

I also seem to remember Barbour and Esten mentioning that they'd eventually like to build a parking deck adjacent to the Shields Building and take over the Shields Building if/when Admissions/Registration moves out of Shields. Of course, this is down-the-road stuff.