How do you make regular season dual meets more meaningful?

[NittanyChris]

Without devolving into a discussion of protecting seeds or not wrestling guys who are injured or not injured, Who has a rational plan for making regular season dual meets more meaningful?

Apart from individual results having meaning for seedings, how can they be made more important for team national championships?

Discuss.

 

[liex26]

Rule changes?

Duals promote stalling and preventing bonus. I enjoy them when both teams wrestle, but pales in comparison to tournament wrestling from both a team and individual point of view.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Lots of people aren't going to like these:

1) Change dual scoring to "a point earned is a point scored"

http://wadeschalles.com/a-point-earned-is-a-point-scored/

to allow every wrestler on every team to earn team points, encourage wrestlers to wrestle all the way to the end of matches, and reward the superstars by allowing them to contribute more to dual team score than they can now. Perhaps this will result in more aggressive wrestling by more teams too.

Note: Not saying Schalles' system is PERFECT as you can always come up with scenarios where it can be gamed but I believe it is better than what we use today for duals and supports #2 below.

2) Consider a true dual team tournament to decide the National Championship using the above scoring method for duals. Look, I absolutely LOVE the NCAA tournament and have been attending for almost 30 years. But I could probably live if the NCAA tournament was only about individual championships. One of Cael's big beefs with a dual team format for choosing the Team National Champs is that superstars aren't rewarded enough in a dual meet format to make it a fair reflection of the skills a team has. #1 above attempts to correct this and perhaps makes a dual meet championship format more palatable to coaches like Cael. If we ran our NCAA team tournament like basketball does, individual dual meets (and team dual records) would mean much more and probably grow the fan base for dual meets.

 

[RoarLions1]

Wouldn't change a thing...maybe tweak some of the Rules and Interpretations.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Lots of people aren't going to like these:

1) Change dual scoring to "a point earned is a point scored"

http://wadeschalles.com/a-point-earned-is-a-point-scored/

to allow every wrestler on every team to earn team points, encourage wrestlers to wrestle all the way to the end of matches, and reward the superstars by allowing them to contribute more to dual team score than they can now. Perhaps this will result in more aggressive wrestling by more teams too.

Note: Not saying Schalles' system is PERFECT as you can always come up with scenarios where it can be gamed but I believe it is better than what we use today for duals and supports #2 below.

2) Consider a true dual team tournament to decide the National Championship using the above scoring method for duals. Look, I absolutely LOVE the NCAA tournament and have been attending for almost 30 years. But I could probably live if the NCAA tournament was only about individual championships. One of Cael's big beefs with a dual team format for choosing the Team National Champs is that superstars aren't rewarded enough in a dual meet format to make it a fair reflection of the skills a team has. #1 above attempts to correct this and perhaps makes a dual meet championship format more palatable to coaches like Cael. If we ran our NCAA team tournament like basketball does, individual dual meets (and team dual records) would mean much more and probably grow the fan base for dual meets.

I haven't seen any evidence that the bolded part is true. The top teams already have good attendance. How does changing how we decide the team title improve dual attendance at the 70 schools that have no chance of winning the team title no matter what format is used? That is not a rhetorical question. I would really like to hear how it would do that?

 

[OkieSpladle]

I haven't seen any evidence that the bolded part is true. The top teams already have good attendance. How does changing how we decide the team title improve dual attendance at the 70 schools that have no chance of winning the team title no matter what format is used? That is not a rhetorical question. I would really like to hear how it would do that?

It's all about breaking the competition into stages with duals used to qualify for each advancing stage. When you can sell a dual as having tangible meaning (ie; conference championship, qualify for Nat Duals, etc) you almost always see a boost in attendance. If we adopt a hybrid model where qualifying for national duals (which would obviously have to be in a different format than it is today) gets a team a small number of team points for NCAAs, then each successive win (in a dual held at the higher seeded team's home gym) gets more points, you create a large number of additional duals each season that are easy to sell to students and local fans as meaningful. If every team that is competitive in their conference (or competitive for wildcards to a larger, bracketed Nat Duals) has an additional 1-2 duals that are important for qualifying and you add in the nat duals meets as well, that's a lot more duals that "matter" on campuses outside the ones that will draw regardless. Other than costs, I don't see a downside to that model.

The other ways to make duals matter is to either tie dual outcomes to the number of qualifiers you can take to nationals or use weight-class performance (rather than individual performance) for seeding/qualification purposes. The latter doesn't really make dual outcomes matter, but it removes the incentive to hold guys out.

 

[NittanyChris]

Wouldn't change a thing...maybe tweak some of the Rules and Interpretations.

Honest question: does this mean you are comfortable with the entire dual regular season being essentially meaningless in terms of the team championship?

 

[El-Jefe]

Well, OK, but we had 2 B10 teams pre-schedule their way out of the NWCA Duals ...

and at least 4 teams have already opted out of the PA District 4 Duals tourney (qualifier for PA State Duals), which is (I think) 2 weeks away.

 

[liex26]

Oh No. Here we go again. Leave the NCAA championship alone FFS. Better yet, it works so lets break it and alienate the small fan base wrestling does have.

Come up with a solution that doesn't involve the championship.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Well, OK, but we had 2 B10 teams pre-schedule their way out of the NWCA Duals ...

and at least 4 teams have already opted out of the PA District 4 Duals tourney (qualifier for PA State Duals), which is (I think) 2 weeks away.

You think they'd do that if there were NCAA points on the line?

 

[OkieSpladle]

Oh No. Here we go again. Leave the NCAA championship alone FFS. Better yet, it works so lets break it and alienate the small fan base wrestling does have.

Come up with a solution that doesn't involve the championship.

There isn't one. If duals don't have a direct impact on the NCAA title, they won't matter to the vast majority of coaches and teams (regardless of what coaches may say in public...their actions tell different stories). Would the NCAA tournament be "broken" if the Nat Duals winner started with a five-point lead over the runner-up and a 10 point lead over #3?

I'm a huge advocate for the individual tournament. I am staunchly against the dual tournament for the title because the current tournament is the greatest three days of the year. However, I don't see the hybrid model impacting that at all.

 

[liex26]

Yeah, it would hurt it. Take this year as an example. PSU is beginning to show they are both the number one tournament and dual team.
Hypothetically, if they win the "dual championship" and have a ten point lead, NCAA's are over before they begin. Would the battle for second be more interesting? Probably, but the vast majority don't care about second.
I also disagree that there isn't another solution. Put a product on the mat that fans will want to see. Encourage wrestling to score points, not preventing them. Eliminate riding time in duals period. Penalize teams who protect seeds.
There are other options, this was all discussed very thoroughly last time around.

 

[El-Jefe]

You think they'd do that if there were NCAA points on the line?

How far would you need to tilt the scoreboard in order to make Illinois or the Goofers legitimate team threats at nationals?

 

[jammenz]

Well, OK, but we had 2 B10 teams pre-schedule their way out of Cael's Folly...

FIFY. Here's a link to actual National Duals:http://www.wrestlingstats.com/NWCA/PDF/NWCA National Duals.pdf

 

[OkieSpladle]

Yeah, it would hurt it. Take this year as an example. PSU is beginning to show they are both the number one tournament and dual team.
Hypothetically, if they win the "dual championship" and have a ten point lead, NCAA's are over before they begin. Would the battle for second be more interesting? Probably, but the vast majority don't care about second.
I also disagree that there isn't another solution. Put a product on the mat that fans will want to see. Encourage wrestling to score points, not preventing them. Eliminate riding time in duals period. Penalize teams who protect seeds.
There are other options, this was all discussed very thoroughly last time around.

1) If another team can't possibly beat Penn State by 5-10 points, nationals is already over, dual championship or not. You're also assuming they win. If they didn't, nationals becomes even more interesting so 'its a double-edged sword.

2) I'm interested in the bolded part of your statement. Are you penalizing in the dual? How are you judging protecting seeds vs. injury vs. illness?

3) I'm aware this is an old debate, but it is still on the table and the OP asked how you make duals matter. This is the best way.

 

[liex26]

Sucks, but one way is to penalize even injured wrestlers for seeding. No way to say if a wrestler is truly injured, so both must pay the toll.

 

[OkieSpladle]

How far would you need to tilt the scoreboard in order to make Illinois or the Goofers legitimate team threats at nationals?

It isn't all about the title. You think any coach would be able to sit there and tell his AD, "Yeah, we had a chance to score points to better our finish at nationals by going to the duals, but I decided it would be better for the team to sit out and only score points in March"?

I hate the term casual fan, but the less hardcore fans, often students and locals around the university, might be willing to go to a match where the winner scores points toward winning a national title, whether that is a reasonable end result or not. Not to mention, this would no longer be an NWCA event, it would be a part of the NCAA wrestling championships. It's a much easier sell.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. This will be a discussion again in the off-season as they talk about the shift of the season and how to go forward. I believe in the hybrid model so I will continue to advocate for it, though I am just another voice in among many. I've got work to do, but I'll try to circle back later.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Sucks, but one way is to penalize even injured wrestlers for seeding. No way to say if a wrestler is truly injured, so both must pay the toll.

I guess that's where we part ways. I find that (having a wrestler seeded incorrectly) much more of a problem for the NCAA tournament than the hybrid model. Having the best two guys meet before the finals should be avoided at all costs.

 

[RoarLions1]

Honest question: does this mean you are comfortable with the entire dual regular season being essentially meaningless in terms of the team championship?

Honest answer...my opinion only...
The entire dual season does have meaning now. Every bout of every dual affects the seeding at the post-season tournaments. I don't understand at all, the idea that the duals have no meaning today, except that it's used by some as an excuse to argue their point.

Then there's the National Tournament. If it was in trouble, with a shortage of attendees, or little revenue, or flat-out lack of excitement as far as the product, I'd be here talking about change. But it's not the case.

And if it's about growing the sport...let's do what can be done with the rules to encourage a more exciting product.

 

[GOLDBANGER]

I don't know how many years in a row the National tournament has been sold out but it's been a while, this indicates to me that THAT is not broken. How do we make duals more meaningful, well that's like asking what is the meaning of life? Lot's of speculation, very few actual answers.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

I haven't seen any evidence that the bolded part is true. The top teams already have good attendance. How does changing how we decide the team title improve dual attendance at the 70 schools that have no chance of winning the team title no matter what format is used? That is not a rhetorical question. I would really like to hear how it would do that?

I guess it depends on your definition of "good attendance". Here are the attendance stats for the top ten teams in wrestling from 2014-15:

I don't consider a top ten team having on average 1,566 fans to be good attendance for a sport. If a dual win meant more and there was more ability for the superstars of the sport to carry a team to victory, then perhaps more fans would want to attend.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Lots of people aren't going to like these:

1) Change dual scoring to "a point earned is a point scored"

http://wadeschalles.com/a-point-earned-is-a-point-scored/

to allow every wrestler on every team to earn team points, encourage wrestlers to wrestle all the way to the end of matches, and reward the superstars by allowing them to contribute more to dual team score than they can now. Perhaps this will result in more aggressive wrestling by more teams too.

Note: Not saying Schalles' system is PERFECT as you can always come up with scenarios where it can be gamed but I believe it is better than what we use today for duals and supports #2 below.

2) Consider a true dual team tournament to decide the National Championship using the above scoring method for duals. Look, I absolutely LOVE the NCAA tournament and have been attending for almost 30 years. But I could probably live if the NCAA tournament was only about individual championships. One of Cael's big beefs with a dual team format for choosing the Team National Champs is that superstars aren't rewarded enough in a dual meet format to make it a fair reflection of the skills a team has. #1 above attempts to correct this and perhaps makes a dual meet championship format more palatable to coaches like Cael. If we ran our NCAA team tournament like basketball does, individual dual meets (and team dual records) would mean much more and probably grow the fan base for dual meets.

What about a Fall? How many points do you get there - just what you scored to that point plus 4 NF?

 

[RoarLions1]

I don't know how many years in a row the National tournament has been sold out but it's been a while, this indicates to me that THAT is not broken. How do we make duals more meaningful, well that's like asking what is the meaning of life? Lot's of speculation, very few actual answers.

2011, I believe. It was also the first year going over 100,000. The last number in each row is the overall attendance. The number to the left of it is the Final's Attendance. The rest you can figure out easy enough...


2011 Penn St. Cael Sanderson 107½ Cornell 93½ Philadelphia 17,687 104,260


2012 Penn St. Cael Sanderson 143 Minnesota 117½ St. Louis 18,919 112,393

2013 Penn St. Cael Sanderson 123½ Oklahoma St. 119½ Des Moines, Iowa 15,909 92,844

2014 Penn St. Cael Sanderson 109½ Minnesota 104 Oklahoma City 16,221 93,334

2015 Ohio St. Tom Ryan 102 Iowa 84 St. Louis 19,715 113,013

2016 Penn St. Cael Sanderson 123 Oklahoma St. 97½ New York City 19,270 110,194

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

What about a Fall? How many points do you get there - just what you scored to that point plus 4 NF?

Did you read the article? It tries to explain falls, defaults, TF, etc. Again, not a perfect approach but is an intriguing way to give the superstars a way to make a bigger impact in a dual meet.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Did you read the article? It tries to explain falls, defaults, TF, etc. Again, not a perfect approach but is an intriguing way to give the superstars a way to make a bigger impact in a dual meet.

Did not read link - was going to, but new page hung up before displaying so I gave up....was just trying to get a clarification off what you posted regarding "points scored".

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Create an rpi where you are rewarded for wins but there is nothing subtracted for losses.. Wins over #2, #5 and losses to #17 and # 21 would be a better tournament seed than wins over #5 and #6 with zero losses. This would encourage everyone to wrestle when they get a chance against the highest ranked guys they could. It would encourage tougher scheduling as well.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Did not read link - was going to, but new page hung up before displaying so I gave up....was just trying to get a clarification off what you posted regarding "points scored".

No worries! If I understand his approach correctly, the maximum difference in points without a fall that a wrestler could get is 15. Matches would still end at 15 point differential like they do now. However, a Fall is worth an extra 10 points on top of points already scored. So if you were up by 14 and pinned someone the team would get 24 points.

 

[21Guns]

Point system, but it only works if there is a regulated number of matches that every team wrestles.

 

[a_mshaffer]

regular seasons are more enjoyable when your team is doing well! We need more 'team' fans. Instead we have some team fans and they gather to make 'a lot' at the national tourney. Grow the popularity of the sport. Do people really watch the 5+ games of basketball on tv during any given day? I can see it when there is hype and more folks tune in... I think all HS kids should be forced to take wrestling in gym class! Maybe then we'll get some appreciation of the sport!

 

[JOESTROSSER]

People just need to be honest about this. There is no pent up demand, desire or thirst in the public sector for duals. Stall, defend against losing too big are great strategy to win a dual, but they aren't fun to watch even if you know what's happening.

 

[a_mshaffer]

ye

People just need to be honest about this. There is no pent up demand, desire or thirst in the public sector for duals. Stall, defend against losing too big are great strategy to win a dual, but they aren't fun to watch even if you know what's happening.

yep... depends on the sport and if you're team is winning... lots of empty seat in any sport (football included) in a lot of arenas.

 

[Abro1975]

High School team championships usually held 2 weeks before the start of States have gotten very popular , at least in NJ and Pa. Not sure how they do it in Ohio. Not sure why a format like that couldn't be incorporated some how. Streamline it for D1 college. Invite the top ranked 4 teams, and do it in one night or 2 consecutive nights, at a high profile arena, or even on a big campus arena, and I think in a few years it would be pretty popular. The NWCA's that doesn't even crown a true champ, seems pretty lame.

 

[El-Jefe]

yep... depends on the sport and if you're team is winning... lots of empty seat in any sport (football included) in a lot of arenas.

Such as armPitt football.

 

[burnsie1983]

Sucks, but one way is to penalize even injured wrestlers for seeding. No way to say if a wrestler is truly injured, so both must pay the toll.

+1

 

[slushhead]

Honest answer...my opinion only...
The entire dual season does have meaning now. Every bout of every dual affects the seeding at the post-season tournaments. I don't understand at all, the idea that the duals have no meaning today, except that it's used by some as an excuse to argue their point.

Then there's the National Tournament. If it was in trouble, with a shortage of attendees, or little revenue, or flat-out lack of excitement as far as the product, I'd be here talking about change. But it's not the case.

And if it's about growing the sport...let's do what can be done with the rules to encourage a more exciting product.

I'll second that -- my thoughts exactly (especially the part about the national tournament not being broken).

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

High School team championships usually held 2 weeks before the start of States have gotten very popular , at least in NJ and Pa. Not sure how they do it in Ohio. Not sure why a format like that couldn't be incorporated some how. Streamline it for D1 college. Invite the top ranked 4 teams, and do it in one night or 2 consecutive nights, at a high profile arena, or even on a big campus arena, and I think in a few years it would be pretty popular. The NWCA's that doesn't even crown a true champ, seems pretty lame.

Yea, but there is no requirement that the kids wrestle at the weights they will qualify for at states......they can use illegal tactics such as stalling to attempt to "game" the dual outcome.....etc... Why should duals factor into the "Tournament Scoring" when the "Tournament Scoring" already works perfectly well in determining the National Championship in terms of which team has the best overall 10 wrestlers???

 

[jack66]

Don't mess with the National Tourney. It's wrestling's best showcase.