"IF" the JS scandal never happened, and Joe retired when he was fired.............

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

There has to be a term for this somewhere......

1 - Make up something in your mind
2 - Attribute it to someone else
3 - Criticize that other person for feeling that way


Isn't there another house somewhere that you could haunt?

No doubt, I call it the "tautology of trolls" or the "troll strawman" -- they have done the same in regards to comparisons of Creepy Uncle Harb-o to completely irrelevant comparisons of PSU's coach's actions that justify it....go figure? As the insurance commercial goes, "That's what trolls do!".....

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

What's often lost in this discussion is this: Joe picked Urban, Urban never picked Penn State. I'm 100% with @Art here.

IMO, Meyer had planned to take over at OSU for several years.

- Last year at Florida is the same year Jimmy-T got the boot. Unexpectedly resigns from UF.

- Works for ESPN gaining a publicity, popularity, and uninterrupted exposure across the country boost daily. Meanwhile, he watches Fickle flounder... as he expected him to.

- It's at this point where PSU comes into play. It was always going to be a leverage play. Meyer was going to be OSU's coach, it's just a matter of how much they would pay him. Using replacing Joe as his bargaining chip, OSU would have gave him the entire estate. Couldn't let an Ohio-born coaching superstar take over for Penn State.

All except that you've got your troll facts wrong as usual..... Urban Meyer announced his resignation from Florida on December 9, 2010 (in case you don't believe me, HERE IS A REFERENCE). Jim Tressell was under no pressure to resign in December 2010. The NCAA sanctions that led to Tressell's resignation (under threat of being fired) were not revealed until late May 2011 (in fact, the NCAA's findings came as a surprise as they contradicted the NCAA's earlier findings on the matter based on an "internal investigation" that had been submitted by tO$U AND SUPPORTED by the b1g shiz-hole League Commissioner, Jim "Two-Face" Delany - the NCAA's earlier "Finding" absolving tO$U had to be re-opened because the Tatto-shop owner, car dealer, etc...presented information in a FEDERAL DRUG INVESTIGATION that showed Tressel and tO$U's Athletic Dept had LIED in their early statements to the NCAA via their "internal investigation" regarding their actual knowledge on specific topics relevant to the earlier NCAA Case). If you don't believe me on the timeline of Tressel's surprise resignation and being "forced out", CLICK HERE.

There you have it Teddy TrollSevellte - your troll supposed-facts and timelines have been proven FALSE as usual.....keep up the good work.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

If it's true that Urban Meyer was about to become the coach, I'm glad that didn't happen (although I would never wish for a repeat of the circumstances of 2011). I'd rather see a winless team than see Meyer as the head coach. The guy is just a major-league d-bag, and watching him win would not bring me any satisfaction; rather, I'd be throwing up in my mouth every week.

 

[PSU_1991]

A few months ago on PA Sports Network Jay said that Joe's successor had been decided upon in 2011 and it was in the works for him to take over. When the scandal broke, this person contacted Joe to ask him "who's in charge there?," essentially asking where he now stands. Joe said, "Honestly, I don't know." Jay wouldn't name who that person is but said he's coaching somewhere else. Jay joked that if you got a few shots in Scott he might spill.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

If it's true that Urban Meyer was about to become the coach, I'm glad that didn't happen (although I would never wish for a repeat of the circumstances of 2011). I'd rather see a winless team than see Meyer as the head coach. The guy is just a major-league d-bag, and watching him win would not bring me any satisfaction; rather, I'd be throwing up in my mouth every week.

He is some kind of hypocrite with all his Bible-thumping while unethically banging co-eds attending the University he is coaching and looking the other way regarding fraud student-athletes (especially the one's that doubled as convict "street life" gang-members) out of pure self-interest because it helped him win football games.....etc... Anybody who doesn't believe this can just ask Muschamp about the true "character", "nature" and "integrity" of the Urban Meyer athletes he inherited! How anyone can "respect" this hypocritical, stand-for-nothing, narcissistic, zero-values, zero-principles, shameless puke and want him being an "educator" and "leader" at your University is well beyond me. The guy is a complete sellout and shameless hypocrite - the diametric opposite of "character" and "integrity", but most of the "ivory tower" fits that same mold these days, go figure!?!?

 

[Art]

It was my understanding that Urban Meyer was prepared to come here when Joe retired at the end of the 2011 season and Meyer didn't hoodwink anyone. The scandal happened and scared him off. He probably has been thanking his lucky stars that it broke when it did and he wasn't at that point, connected to the program in any way.

Lot of Penn State fans believe that. Read Bruce Hooley's account, particularly his time line, of Meyer's discussions with OSU.and you should come away with a different opinion.

 

[NittanyLogan'11]

All except that you've got your troll facts wrong as usual

There you have it Teddy TrollSevellte - your troll supposed-facts and timelines have been proven FALSE as usual.....keep up the good work.

I post on this board about a dozen times a year, how am I tolling "as usual"? Either you've mistaken me for somebody else or you're just pissed for no reason.

I said, several times, that it was my opinion that this was a long-drawn out plan by Meyer to be OSU's HC. Never said "this is exactly how it happened." I misfired on the timeline, my apologies, I must not follow Ohio State football as closely as you. My point wasn't to be an encyclopedia on the events, it was to make a point that Meyer was going to go home to Ohio State.

Lastly, congratulations on the nickname, pat yourself on the back for that one. 9th graders the world over are jealous of your creativity.

 

[Bob78]

If Paterno got to pick his successor it basically means Curley was a figurehead. Picking the a new head coach is
a function of the AD with the consent of the President. They may ask the outgoing coach for input but it should not
be his decision. If as everyone has stated here Paterno was choosing his successor, it validates what Freeh reported
that the football program aka Paterno at PSU had a case of the tail wagging the dog.

In my case, I have not and am not now saying that Joe picked his successor. I don't think anyone here who has a handle on what Paterno was all about is saying that either. I stated that from what I have heard here and elsewhere, Joe gave his input as to three candidates to consider. I'd think that would be very welcome input. This is also given that neither Scrap nor Jay were among those three. Phil stated many times that the one decision that had been made was that the new coach would come from outside the current staff.
Giving any credence to the Freeh nonsense about Joe running the place is just silly. Anyone who followed the program and knew what Joe was all about knows better. The tail did not wag the dog at PSU, as it does at many other schools. Freeh's 'conclusions' were born in bizarro-world.

Huge difference from soliciting input from a very senior and very successful leader than deferring all decision(s) to them. I've done that in my job many times with decisions that can impact culture and require some thought change among the staff and mgmt. Running things past your boss or a highly-respected peer can help uncover points that you may have not thought of in a vacuum. That's why Joe was, and now people like Russ Rose are among those whose insight and experience can help the entire 'team' work better when it comes to things impacting PSU's athletics. Wish the OG BOT would figure this out soon than later.

 

[Jerademan74]

It was my understanding that Urban Meyer was prepared to come here when Joe retired at the end of the 2011 season and Meyer didn't hoodwink anyone. The scandal happened and scared him off. He probably has been thanking his lucky stars that it broke when it did and he wasn't at that point, connected to the program in any way.

So IF Urban Meyer did take the job, and then the JS sh-t hit the fan, I don't think UM would have stayed. Especially with the NCAA Sanctions, he would have run for the hills quickly. Therefore, even though we all aren't happy with what transpired, we are probably ahead of the game with how things worked out, so let's be happy about that.This whole thread was based on "what if", and "what did" happen trumps the question. IF CJF can keep recruiting as well as he has been, and we can close the talent gap with OSU, MSU and UM; we should be in good shape. The OL must be the first area to see improvement so we can at least give our skill players time to run plays! That in itself should significantly better our team. Trouble is, we are 2 years away from that!

 

[MarkPSU]

Going back to the original post, I think if the JS scandal never happens and Joe retires, Penn State football takes off. I don't think it's any secret that many people viewed Penn State as a sleeping giant. Looks like we'll have to wait a bit longer for that to happen.

 

[Bob78]

Going back to the original post, I think if the JS scandal never happens and Joe retires, Penn State football takes off. I don't think it's any secret that many people viewed Penn State as a sleeping giant. Looks like we'll have to wait a bit longer for that to happen.

Yes.... the PSU job was highly coveted by many who knew they could take the current talent and incoming/future available talent and turn it into a mega-power on the field. With Joe's proper legacy, that would have had to be done under the "Success With Honor" banner. And we would be all be happy campers for the most part, I think.

I'm as staunch a Paterno supporter as anyone, and even though I wanted Joe to retire on his own accord, I hoped each year since 2006 that he would just make that choice already! My buddies would laugh at how often I would say "I'd love to see what any other coach in the country could do with this talent" when some wth? play call had just transpired on the field. This was not based on lazy recruiting (we still recruited pretty well overall, and Joe could still close key recruits even with his travel limitations) or bad coaching, but rather on how conservative the offensive game plan often was in big road games. And that was ultimately on Joe - what he would allow into the O game plan and not allow.

It's funny how often I hear ex-coaches who do analysis on games talk about being smart on D, keeping things in front of you, have confidence that the other team cannot go the length of the field without being forced into a mistake, managing the game on O, etc. All the stuff that used to drive me and others nuts about Joe! Somehow he muddled his way to 409 wins (shoulda been about 450 if he had just listened to us!!).

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I'm as staunch a Paterno supporter as anyone, and even though I wanted Joe to retire on his own accord, I hoped each year since 2006 that he would just make that choice already! .

2008 would have been the perfect time for him to retire and leave a good 2009 team to his successor. I just could not believe when he decided to come back after 2010, amid rumors that his health was not good. I guess he just could not imagine life without being the head coach.

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

Sorry, he did. Joe wasn't infallible. He got hoodwinked.

This makes me sick to my stomach to read this

 

[Aoshiro]

So IF Urban Meyer did take the job, and then the JS sh-t hit the fan, I don't think UM would have stayed. Especially with the NCAA Sanctions, he would have run for the hills quickly. Therefore, even though we all aren't happy with what transpired, we are probably ahead of the game with how things worked out, so let's be happy about that.This whole thread was based on "what if", and "what did" happen trumps the question. IF CJF can keep recruiting as well as he has been, and we can close the talent gap with OSU, MSU and UM; we should be in good shape. The OL must be the first area to see improvement so we can at least give our skill players time to run plays! That in itself should significantly better our team. Trouble is, we are 2 years away from that!

You are assuming that the sanctions would have happened either way.
That is an incorrect assumption.
The sanctions were tied directly to Freeh's "conclusions."
Freeh was taking dictation from certain trustees who had axes to grind against Paterno and Spanier.
In other words, Penn State football was only hit with sanctions because of the malice of certain trustees.
But that doesn't mean that Paterno was wrong to stick around.
It means that there are vermin in our garden and we need to get rid of them.

Penn State football would be in infinitely better shape today if our own trustees had not thrown the football program under the bus. It is not debatable.

 

[JoeDidntKnow]

James Franklin is not an "outsider" - he grew up in Pennsylvania, was an all-star performer at a Pennsylvania high school, grew up a huge PSU fan by his own admission, attended PSU Football camps throughout high school (again by self-admission, on the hopes that he could build a relationship with PSU Coaches, impress the PSU coaches and get a PSU scholarship offer or at-least a "preferred walk-on" commitment).... He simply never got any offers from PSU despite it being his high school dream.....he went on to be a star QB at East Stroudsburg where he was a 4-year starter and a nominee for the Division II Player of the Year his Senior Year in 1994 (he was also a SI National Player of the Week in 1994). When he took the job, he said he was "Lifelong PSU fan" and that he had always been unabashed in stating that PSU has always been his "dream job" at the seminal PSU Press Conference. He also said, "I guess I've always been just a Pennsylvania boy with a Penn State heart".

Calling Franklin an "outsider" to Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania Football or being part of PSU / PSU Fandom (the University belongs to entire Commonwealth by PA Legislation and Founding Charter) is a vast overstatement if you ask me....a VAST overstatement!

He is just waiting to unleash the Pennsy Kraken on the B1G

 

[Aoshiro]

My buddies would laugh at how often I would say "I'd love to see what any other coach in the country could do with this talent" when some wth? play call had just transpired on the field.

I think that a lot of Penn Staters have an unrealistic notion of what it takes to have a championship, or even top 10, program. Frankly, the fanbase was a bunch of spoiled kids.
Take what you wrote above. That talent came to Penn State because of Paterno and the program that he built. Take Paterno out of the program and there is no guarantee that the same talent would come. So it's ridiculous to pretend that the two things are separate. This isn't the NFL where an owner just writes a big check to get whoever he wants.
I'm giving Franklin the benefit of the doubt, but now the sanctions are in the rear-view mirror (pretty much) I think that Penn State fans are going to have a hard to adjusting to the reality that having a top tier team is a lot harder than you think it is. Those of you who thought that getting rid of Paterno was the key to winning national championships are in for a major disappointment.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

He is just waiting to unleash the Pennsy Kraken on the B1G

Supposedly Cael and Franklin have a very good relationship which makes sense given that recruiting Pennsylvania for football and wrestling goes "hand in glove" as the two Pennsylvania sports with deep, deep roots throughout Pennsylvania and the Pennsylvania Coaching Fraternity. I think Cael good give Franklin lots of good advice on bringing the Pennsy Beast to bear on the midwestern vermin....

 

[The Spin Meister]

I had a friend that was good friends of Joe and also knew the BoT pretty well. Around the Dark Ages in early 2000s after they tried to get Joe to retire but he refused, my friend told me that when Joe goes, they would look outside and clean house. Not a single coach would be retained. Look at the BoT members at that time Surma and gang would have never let Joe pick a successor. Even Curley would have been gone, don't know about Schultz or Spanier.

 

[Osprey Lion]

I think that a lot of Penn Staters have an unrealistic notion of what it takes to have a championship, or even top 10, program. Frankly, the fanbase was a bunch of spoiled kids.
Take what you wrote above. That talent came to Penn State because of Paterno and the program that he built. Take Paterno out of the program and there is no guarantee that the same talent would come. So it's ridiculous to pretend that the two things are separate. This isn't the NFL where an owner just writes a big check to get whoever he wants.
I'm giving Franklin the benefit of the doubt, but now the sanctions are in the rear-view mirror (pretty much) I think that Penn State fans are going to have a hard to adjusting to the reality that having a top tier team is a lot harder than you think it is. Those of you who thought that getting rid of Paterno was the key to winning national championships are in for a major disappointment.

You seem to be quite the authority on football, Penn State and Paterno. And yet here you are wasting all that talent on this board.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I had a friend that was good friends of Joe and also knew the BoT pretty well. Around the Dark Ages in early 2000s after they tried to get Joe to retire but he refused, my friend told me that when Joe goes, they would look outside and clean house. Not a single coach would be retained. Look at the BoT members at that time Surma and gang would have never let Joe pick a successor. Even Curley would have been gone, don't know about Schultz or Spanier.

At least they were going to take care of one problem; not sure why they felt like they needed to wait for Paterno to go. Curley was the Peter principle personified, IMO.

 

[PennStateNate]

Honestly, who cares? Whoever Joe named would have possibly never coached a game at Penn State.

 

[kgilbert78]

Much as Urban Meyer is disparaged here, it's my understanding that Joe really liked him. You know the rumors that without the scandal, Urban was the next guy. I think the new blood is good even though you have to get a lot of people to accept change that are quite resistant to it.

And vice versa. UM came to the memorial service and brought Fickel. He didn't have to do that.

 

[kgilbert78]

They had already decided they were going to go outside the current staff for the new head coach. Neither Tom nor Jay would be the next HC. Joe hoped that some or most of the staff would be retained, but had successfully lobbied for contract buy-outs for the assistants in case they were not. Surely the opening would have attracted an applicant pool of who's-who among coaches, as it seemed to anyway in late 2011-early 2012.

All you had to look at was the way all of the previous coaching changes over the 3-5 years before Joe passed were handled. Curley went out of house for all of them. He'd realized the place had gotten too ingrown. Football would have been the same.

 

[91Joe95]

What if your aunt had balls?

She'd be a hermaphrodite.

 

[91Joe95]

Without being able to live inside of the involved folks' heads....I don't know if anyone can say for 100% what was even likely to happen (let alone definitively what WOULD HAVE happened).....but one can make some fairly reasonable assumptions about some aspects:

1 - WRT Urby, both the PSU and OSU jobs would have been open. Both of those jobs would provide any prospective coaching candidate with a King's Treasure of resources.
One job - OSU - fit Urby like a hand in a glove
The other - PSU - would have been like combining vanilla ice cream with salsa.....both are great - by themselves........together, they are stomach-churning.

What WOULD have happened....IDK.
What was more likely to happen? I think that one is pretty easy.


2 - Given his long-standing custom, I think it is VERY likely that JoePa would have exerted whatever influence he had in the name of minimizing staff turnover....although the age/demographics would have dictated that turnover would have been significant.

How much influence would he have had?
How specific would those requests have been?
Who knows.


3 - There would have been a lot of quality candidates. PSU then (as now, but even more so "pre-scandal") is certainly one of the premier destinations for anyone in college football.

High-quality candidates, with successful track records, would have been VERY hard to overlook in lieu of an "internal" candidate with no track record as a head coach (let alone, a successful track record at major college programs - of which, there would have been plenty of candidates)
An "internal" hire? HIGHLY unlikely....even it that had been JoePa's desire (which I doubt would have been the case)


4 - Did the "administration" at PSU think Meyer would have taken the job?

I don't know, but I think so (but don't have any insider info). There did seem to be too much smoke from reasonable sources to discount the idea.
If the OSU job wasn't available...I think it may have even happened. But, given the OSU opportunity was out there, my gut says that Urby would not have ended up at PSU - no matter what "informed sources" may have believed (or been led to believe).



If I HAD to bet the mortgage money, I would have expected a relatively well-known guy, with a solid Major Conference track record. A guy with no public blemishes (NCAA violations, personal issues, etc)
Likely guys who would have fit that profile back in 2011? Off the top of my head.....Richt, Ferentz, Fitzgerald, Stoops.....guys like that. Someone in that profile.

You left out OSU was facing sanctions, PSU was not, and PSU actually had the talent edge at the time. That's not including tremendous stability at PSU. Ahh, what could have been...

 

[91Joe95]

So IF Urban Meyer did take the job, and then the JS sh-t hit the fan, I don't think UM would have stayed. Especially with the NCAA Sanctions, he would have run for the hills quickly. Therefore, even though we all aren't happy with what transpired, we are probably ahead of the game with how things worked out, so let's be happy about that.This whole thread was based on "what if", and "what did" happen trumps the question. IF CJF can keep recruiting as well as he has been, and we can close the talent gap with OSU, MSU and UM; we should be in good shape. The OL must be the first area to see improvement so we can at least give our skill players time to run plays! That in itself should significantly better our team. Trouble is, we are 2 years away from that!

If Urban had come to PSU, I doubt there would have been any sanctions. He had the clout, the knowledge, and the gravitas to push back with more than just, "keep us on TV" bs. You can bet he would have successfully threatened the bot with breach and called in the big guns on the bot before things got so far out of control.

 

[91Joe95]

In my case, I have not and am not now saying that Joe picked his successor. I don't think anyone here who has a handle on what Paterno was all about is saying that either. I stated that from what I have heard here and elsewhere, Joe gave his input as to three candidates to consider. I'd think that would be very welcome input. This is also given that neither Scrap nor Jay were among those three. Phil stated many times that the one decision that had been made was that the new coach would come from outside the current staff.
Giving any credence to the Freeh nonsense about Joe running the place is just silly. Anyone who followed the program and knew what Joe was all about knows better. The tail did not wag the dog at PSU, as it does at many other schools. Freeh's 'conclusions' were born in bizarro-world.

Huge difference from soliciting input from a very senior and very successful leader than deferring all decision(s) to them. I've done that in my job many times with decisions that can impact culture and require some thought change among the staff and mgmt. Running things past your boss or a highly-respected peer can help uncover points that you may have not thought of in a vacuum. That's why Joe was, and now people like Russ Rose are among those whose insight and experience can help the entire 'team' work better when it comes to things impacting PSU's athletics. Wish the OG BOT would figure this out soon than later.

Respect seems to be a subtlety easily confused with out of control power for some posters.

 

[91Joe95]

You seem to be quite the authority on football, Penn State and Paterno. And yet here you are wasting all that talent on this board.

Aren't we all?

 

[theengineer]

I don't understand what this discussion is about. It seems pointless talking about "what if"s" from the past, not the future.

 

[NittanyOpp]

Everything happens for a reason...maybe Joe being wrongfully fired was so Urbs could not become our head coach and ruin our program. I don't care what anyone says, yes we would win a ton of games with cUM as our coach, yes we would lose our self worth in the meantime of our great university. I would rather be where we are than winning with UM, every day of the week.

Joe liked Urb at the Nike events, they became very close. I don't believe either that Urb would go to PSU over OSU as both jobs were open at same time. Nevertheless, we still win game and lose games with class and integrity. That is worth much more.

 

[Hawks!!!]

How on Earth can any of you people honestly think that Bob Stoops would have given up the OU job to coach at Penn State.

That is borderline delusional, even for you guys.