Right now, if the “greatest” is the most accomplished at the college level, it’s Brooks. If it’s “who’s the best wrestler”, I’ll never not say DT. The two losses obviously keep DT from being the most accomplished compared to the 4-timers, but by eye test, he was the best wrestler I’d seen since Cael himself.
If you can only choose 1?
- Thread starter GogglesPaizano
- Start date
Axiom?yep, gets into who you loss to, plus number of championships... need an agreement on the denominator
The difference to me being mid- to upper-weights historically have more juniors/seniors where the light weights have more freshman/sophomores. Taylor had Dake, Zain had Steiber, Ruth got hurt, Nickal lost on a fluky match, and Nolf had Martinez. I'm not saying any of these guys are shoe-ins, but they certainly have the pedigree, and I don't see anyone who is head and shoulders above any of them. But, guys like Teasdale had the pedigree too, and we saw how that turned out.
We can't let a couple of medical forfeits allow us to discount what Carter did. He ran the table after a first dual loss to DJ Washington and a B1G finals loss to Michael Kemerer. He had a few more land mines in his path than Zain and Nolf over those years. Now I know, a lot of that had to do with Zain and Nolf's dominance. But there were fewer legitimate challengers.
Picking one is an impossible task. But if you are looking at an NCAA career, Carter wins in my book. The Venz/Coleman losses are worse than the Washington loss. The Amine/Kemerer losses are a push. The 4X vs the 3X is a win for Carter. Therefore, Carter wins. He has it all but the on mat dominance.
Picking one is an impossible task. But if you are looking at an NCAA career, Carter wins in my book. The Venz/Coleman losses are worse than the Washington loss. The Amine/Kemerer losses are a push. The 4X vs the 3X is a win for Carter. Therefore, Carter wins. He has it all but the on mat dominance.
Who did Nolf lose to again, when and how?
Where is Carter on this list?
https://pennstatewrestlingclub.org/career-bonus-wins-leaders/
Or better yet this one
Career Falls Leaders – Penn State Wrestling Club
pennstatewrestlingclub.org
;-/
Zero disrespect intended, just the facts. 4x may be the most important number, but far from the only important number. As an example, Yanni limped to the finish for his 4th, nearly lost twice in the tourney, and his career bonus numbers are not compelling. He doesn't make my top 10 all time list but Nolf certainly does.
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Carter will be underrated by most who were not paying attention and give any credence to two paper losses that appear on his record.
But he went undefeated his last three years and was only "threatened" his sophomore year - by Mekhi and Kemmerer. Let's remember this was the version of Mekhi that beat Cenzo. Carter's last two years he was untouchable. Even if his method of destruction was not as flashy as Zain's, DT's, or even Spencer's, there was less chance that anyone was going to beat him. He was a world away from anyone in his weight class.
OTOH, I can't zing Zain for not having the 4th, because he took the mat as a true Frosh and had Stieber in his weight class - BUT, he still doesn't have four. And while Zain was very dominant, but he also got threatened a few times in those last couple of years. Maybe he was sick those days.
Carter has four. I can't wait for him to win the trials next week.
To be perfectly honest. If Carter wins down more than 10/bs to a weight he hasn't seen since his early highschool years, against the best in the world, in a different discipline, I may just have to reassess his greatness.
IMO he is already the most gritty, determined, stingy and tough wrestler I may have ever seen; but to drop that much weight in less than a month and wrestle effectively is something I will have to see.
As great as he is I don't expect to see the same wrestler out there. If I do, there will be few words, as I will be stunned speechless with both admiration and amazement.
FIFY
Though for the record, in his last 3 years Carter also had 1-pt wins over Massa, Foca, and Jaws. I don't think he was ever threatened by Brands, but might have been vs Massa and Foca.
I'm completely with you about Carter's greatness, but this part is not true.
Washington was a 3x NQ whose best finish was 2-2 as a JR. As a SR he went 0-2 at B10s and DNQ. As a SO he went 0-3 at B10s, got pinned in the 9th place mini tourney, got an at-large, and went 0-2. Other than Carter, his best career wins were Pasiuk and Rocky Jordan.
Venz was an AA (4th) and 3x R12. He beat 3 other eventual national champs (Bonaccorsi, Foster, Max Dean).
Coleman was a 2x AA (5th, 7th). He beat finalist Sloan and a bunch of other AAs.
Washington was by far the worst loss of that group. The only thing in its favor was being Carter's first official match -- but that was coming off an undefeated shirt year where he beat a shirting Foca (who went 20-3) and 4 NQs -- most if not all of those guys were better than Washington.
Carter said the DJW loss doesn't count anymore anyway.
He certainly exacted revenge.
Carter will be underrated by most who were not paying attention and give any credence to two paper losses that appear on his record.
But he went undefeated his last three years and was only "threatened" his sophomore year - by Mekhi and Kemmerer. Let's remember this was the version of Mekhi that beat Cenzo. Carter's last two years he was untouchable. Even if his method of destruction was not as flashy as Zain's, DT's, or even Spencer's, there was less chance that anyone was going to beat him. He was a world away from anyone in his weight class.
OTOH, I can't zing Zain for not having the 4th, because he took the mat as a true Frosh and had Stieber in his weight class - BUT, he still doesn't have four. And while Zain was very dominant, but he also got threatened a few times in those last couple of years. Maybe he was sick those days.
Carter has four. I can't wait for him to win the trials next week.
The thing that jumps out at me about this topic is that anyone after the Nolf, Bo, Zain, Marky, & Cenzo era is good enough to even be in this conversation. When that crew cycled out I remember thinking that might be the end of our "Camelot" for quite a while.
What a testament to the greatness of the Triple C coaching staff that they keep producing new GOAT candidates year after year!
Like some of Bo's childhood opponents did, I picture Washington printing up a collection of "I beat CStar" t-shirts and milking that accomplishment for all its worth. Years from now if undergoing a difficult performance appraisal at work he just might whip out, "Did I tell you about the time I beat Starocci?"
Washington and I share something in common. Glory Days: I still hang my hat on the fact that Scott Collins, WVU's first national champ, was only beating me 5-4 when he pinned me in my one and only varsity college match. I reversed him and got 2 back points right before he turned the tables and pinned me. lol
“He could throw that speedball by you, make you look like a fool,” -- Springsteen, Bruce
Regarding Messenbrink getting almost 4 Nattys, I say lets let him get one before we say anything else.
Carters match against Kemerer in the 2022 dual was just as much of, maybe even more of a threat to lose that any match Zain had during his streak IMOCarter will be underrated by most who were not paying attention and give any credence to two paper losses that appear on his record.
But he went undefeated his last three years and was only "threatened" his sophomore year - by Mekhi and Kemmerer. Let's remember this was the version of Mekhi that beat Cenzo. Carter's last two years he was untouchable. Even if his method of destruction was not as flashy as Zain's, DT's, or even Spencer's, there was less chance that anyone was going to beat him. He was a world away from anyone in his weight class.
OTOH, I can't zing Zain for not having the 4th, because he took the mat as a true Frosh and had Stieber in his weight class - BUT, he still doesn't have four. And while Zain was very dominant, but he also got threatened a few times in those last couple of years. Maybe he was sick those days.
Carter has four. I can't wait for him to win the trials next week.
