Is LBJ now the GOAT?
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He was a decent president, but the best ever? Nah
I's peg him as more of an ass than a goat
Yes because he has won 4 and played in 10 championships in the toughest era in the history of pro basketball. He was the best player in the playoffs almost every year in his career, even though he only won one regular season MVP. There are more better players now playing than ever before. In particular there are more players taking 3s and making them than ever before.
The biggest factor in LeBron's favor, he plays against a defense that MJ never played in at least since college, the ZONE. This takes away most of the 1-on-1 game that MJ relied on his entire career. LBJ gets covered by 3 players most of the time down the court but they don't have to commit because of the new rules.
LBJ has done it at a higher level for longer than anyone ever. Bill Russel won a lot of championships but the talent pool was nothing like today and there were far fewer teams, fewer good teams and shorter path to the championship, and no free agency breaking good teams up.
The only serious comparison is MJ and anyone who doesn't acknowledge that MJ had a better supporting cast, Scottie Pippen (was the 2nd best player in the league during most of MJ's career) and Dennis Rodman (best rebounder in the league) and a bunch of other all stars at various times, is lying. Also did I mention MJ didn't have to play against the zone? And the emphasis on 3 point shooting that has changed the game entirely?
Yeah, that's some pretty bad officiating. Guessing you are aware of the star treatment that Jordan used to get from the refs back in the day. Unfortunately, reffing the game at full speed is tough and these guys clearly aren't focused 100% of the time when no one is expecting something, like an unforced double dribble.
hahahahahaha
is this "toughest era in history" the same one that allows him to show up on a totally crappy team and take them to the finals instantly?
Delete your account OP. We didn’t watch MJ on grainy newsreels. Saw him live and in Technicolor - not falling for the recency bias here
To use “defense played against” as a reason Lebron is the GOAT is laughable. Jordan would average 45 in this era. If someone runs by Lebron too fast he falls down complaining.
Lebron is the second greatest player...but will never catch Michael. He was a different beast mentally. It also helps when your agency controls most of the league and can force a top 5 player to quit on his current team and force a trade to your team to make sure you don’t end your career getting knocked out of the playoffs as a 5th seed.
Always difficult to pick one player as the greatest, but LeBron has to be in the discussion.
Agree. No. Starts and ends with MJ. He made his teammates better regardless of who they were. LBJ has to switch teams and recruit good players to help him.
If mj instead of lj played last night, would the Lakers still win? Substitute the 2 back and forth in every important game, would any outcome be different? If so point out which series outcome would be different.
You are serious? In 2019 LBJ and the Lakers missed the playoffs. First playoff miss for LBJ since 2005. The Lakers needed another guy who could play both ends of the floor (Anthony Davis) to contend in 2020.
The reason this is the toughest era is there are more good shooters on every team and the zone defense is legal. Do you understand the leveling effect of the zone on the game of basketball? It means a team with much less ability can contend if they are disciplined. The current favorite NBA way to beat the zone is to shoot 3's at a high rate. This is not the Lakers' game. They won by playing hard man defense and running old fashioned pick and roll basketball.
In the Jordan era, guys like Pippen (who's Bulls had a pretty deep playoff run the year Jordan left to play baseball by the way), and Barkley, and Malone only had to contend with man defense or true double teams that left men open for easy buckets. There was no legal guarding of space.
No-one who argues that this isn't the toughest era, at least for individual performances, understands the game.
He's what 35? and in bball years he's probably about 43 considering he's played about 3.5 seasons worth of playoff games alone.
Crazy that he is still this good.
Did you miss the first 6 years of Jordan's career? He didn't make a championship until his 7th season. By then he had the best supporting cast in the league. And he didn't have to play agains the zone. So, he could shine. Without Scottie, he won zero championships.
Against the zone at the NBA level, a team needs more than 1 or 2 great players.
So my choices are playing against a zone where people don’t touch you and I can get open simply by someone passing me the ball quickly OR I can go up against a defense that is allowed to hand check me all the way up the court and then once I get by that and get into the lane they can knock to the ground or undercut me while I’m in the air...hmmm let me see...
there’s a reason they don’t play the zone constantly in the NBA. It’s because it’s easy for players at this level to break. It’s strictly used for a couple trips to throw off the rhythm of another team. If it’s so effective why isn’t it used for full games by teams??
Again...not saying Lebron isn’t on Mount Rushmore of the nba. He’s just #2 in my book. Could be that I grew up on MJ and I think that plays a part. Whatever you grew up on is always the greatest.
there’s a reason they don’t play the zone constantly in the NBA. It’s because it’s easy for players at this level to break. It’s strictly used for a couple trips to throw off the rhythm of another team. If it’s so effective why isn’t it used for full games by teams??
Again...not saying Lebron isn’t on Mount Rushmore of the nba. He’s just #2 in my book. Could be that I grew up on MJ and I think that plays a part. Whatever you grew up on is always the greatest.
There are some who are not happy with his focus on Civil Rights.
Either of the LBJs.
Either of the LBJs.
When LeBron or Michael average either 50 points per game or 30 rebounds per game over the course of an entire season, I'll be happy to give them the nod. Until then, I'm going with Wilt Chamberlain.
And Scottie Pippen was the second best player in the Association while he and Jordan were playing? No. Pippin was very good, and a deserving Hall of Famer, but Hakeem, Malone, and Barkley were better, just to name three.
And Scottie Pippen was the second best player in the Association while he and Jordan were playing? No. Pippin was very good, and a deserving Hall of Famer, but Hakeem, Malone, and Barkley were better, just to name three.
Yeah. I am 49. I saw it. The superstars of Jordan’s era would crush this current crop of divas. Do you remember the team that he got drafted to. Sorry. No contest. MJ by a mile. LBJ can’t win unless he has talent better than Jordan had surrounding him.
Of those 3 only Barkley was close. Hakeem was strictly a pivot man and Malone could not move with the ball. Only a guy who can play anywhere on the court should be considered as the GOAT. Barkley could do this but he definitely didn't handle the ball like Pippen. When Pippen was on the floor without MJ, he was still the best player on the court both on offense and defense. He certainly didn't get the recognition he deserved.
No doubt MJ was the greatest player until LeBron, and until this last championship, I think the numbers were in MJs favor, but MJ wouldn't have been anything like the player he was against the zone. It's like asking todays' NFL QBs WRs to play against the amount of contact, forearms etc. from DBs and hits after throwing that was allowed in the 70s and 80s.
I about fell out of my chair. Thought you meant Lyndon B. Johnson.
Well they certainly haven't outlawed the hand check or forearm check or whatever. It's part of the game at the half court level when you are manned up, but most superstars beat that with strength and quickness and draw a lot of fouls when the check is followed by a jersey or arm grab. I guarantee you that man defense with a little hand grab is what LeBron would prefer to see than the smothering zone. In fact LeBron's body is made for the old fashioned hard contact man on man game.
Miami used a lot of zone in the finals but they definitely found it wasn't the key to beating the Lakers.
Did you ever play basketball?
They had to change the rules of the game because Wilt was so dominant.
Bill Russell had incredible athletic ability and the smarts and will of Jordan. Nobody would be able to go for uncontested dunks as long as he was on the court.
Kareem was maybe better than those two.
All that said, when he was healthy I would start my dream team with Bill Walton. He had it all, rebounding, defense, passing, and shooting. If my life depended on someone making a shot I would ask for Walton to take a 15 foot bank shot From the left side.
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Anyone who saw both MJ and LBJ play in their prime knows that MJ is the GOAT. LBJ never controlled a game the way MJ did. LBJ needs a stronger supporting cast than MJ.
Go back and look at game 6 of 2010 series between Cleveland and Boston... LBJ checked out in the fourth, basically quit on his team, and ran off the court looking like a guy that had no desire to be there. MJ never quit on his team, nor did Bird or Magic
In today's game there are no guys who just play the 5 who are considered the top player on the floor. The shooters are too good and the 3 is too much a part of the game among other factors.
The rule changes against Wilt have mostly been dismantled and he couldn't hit a free throw. As a complete player, he was about Shaq's equal, but the competition was much weaker. Bill Russel was his only competition as a big and he was about 6'9". Nobody Wilt's size could move in his day.
Bill Russel was a great player (in his time), but wouldn't make the all star team today and probably would't be a 5. He would be an all star defender and rebounder but certainly couldn't bring the game from every aspect like LeBron (who played point guard most of this year).
I don't know how Kareem would fit in today because the hard contact that is common today was not typical back when he operated freely in the paint. He definitely got the star treatment, taking 2 steps to his left or right and getting an automatic basket. Also the zone takes away that entry pass and opening to right or left that he needed. Finally there are just more big long guys that can defend as well as play offense.
It is my opinion Magic Johnson in his prime was the best BB player of all time. At 6' 9" he was near impossible to guard against. Larry Bird also at 6' 9" was not only one of the best shooters in that era but a very good interior player. While I believe that Micheal Jordan was the best shooting Guard ever to play the game they had to change the rules for him to achieve that status. Up until 1991 the Detroit Pistons and to a lesser extent the Boston Celtics thoroughly abused him.
It's not LeBron James fault but who has he played against to give him the right to be called the GOAT? When he went up against Draymond Green he got out hustled, when he played Dwight Howard (early on) he was outplayed in the paint. I would say he is the best BB player during this era but never the GOAT. JMHO
It's not LeBron James fault but who has he played against to give him the right to be called the GOAT? When he went up against Draymond Green he got out hustled, when he played Dwight Howard (early on) he was outplayed in the paint. I would say he is the best BB player during this era but never the GOAT. JMHO
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Nope. MJ is. I could even imagine if MJ had AD, Wade, and the host of stacked teams that Lebron has had. Great for sure...top 5 for sure....but he stacks his teams. Rodman and Oakley couldn't shoot. Will Purdue? Pippen was great, but did he ever win a title minus MJ?
Again MJ, in his day, played with the best supporting cast in the league. When LBJ left Cleveland that team went from championship to last place. When MJ went to play baseball, his supporting cast made a deep playoff run. Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league most of the years with MJ. MJ never went to a championship without him. MJ had Dennis Rodman, the best inside defensive and rebounding force in the NBA, on his team as well. He had a supporting cast of ice in their veins shooters on every championship team. No way has LeBron been playing with as good a supporting cast as MJ had for every one of his championships. Even this year's Laker team, outside of Anthony Davis who is probably LeBron's best full-court all-around dominant teammate ever, is made up of a bunch of guys who nobody else wanted. All good players of course but not guys that were expected to win a championship.
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