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Is the NCAA still terrified . . .

HikeNatParks

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May 16, 2023
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. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to tire these “slackers” out even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail match that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!
 
. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to tire these “slackers” out even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail match that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!
I'm sold. Just point me in the direction of the petition. You are right. It can only grow the sport.
 
There's nothing more interesting that an underdog story. Sign me up!
 
Look at some of the great wrestlers in the past who qualified for the D1 tournament through their own division championship tournaments. Haselrig, Wade Schalles and Rick Sanders come to mind very quickly and I'm sure that others on this board can point out other well known names. The D1 tournament used to be THE national championship where every college wrestler had a chance to prove they were #1. I don't get why this opportunity was eliminated.
 
Look at some of the great wrestlers in the past who qualified for the D1 tournament through their own division championship tournaments. Haselrig, Wade Schalles and Rick Sanders come to mind very quickly and I'm sure that others on this board can point out other well known names. The D1 tournament used to be THE national championship where every college wrestler had a chance to prove they were #1. I don't get why this opportunity was eliminated.
I have a cousin who was a 4-time finalist, 3-time champion at D2 level. Would have loved to see what he could have done with the top competition.
 
I'd love to see it. Guys that for some reason wanted to stay close to home or for academic reasons a smaller school was a better fit could then compete. Not every freshman is ready for 250 student auditorium classroom classes. A smaller school with smaller classes may be a better fit.
 
This sounds great in theory, but has some complications -- namely, the seeding criteria would relegate lower-division champs to bottom seeds and often the pigtails. So D1 schools (likely the smaller schools) would lose qualifiers to guys who will never see the podium.

Some D1 programs are judged by having national qualifiers. Is this worth the risk of losing D1 programs? Because when athletics depts lose money, they don't lay off their army of Assistant ADs.

Regarding the likelihood of this bearing any fruit: undefeated 4x D2 champ Iceman Davis got smoked by Dieringer at Beat the Streets. Yes, freestyle -- also, 9-0.
 
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I'd love to see it. Guys that for some reason wanted to stay close to home or for academic reasons a smaller school was a better fit could then compete. Not every freshman is ready for 250 student auditorium classroom classes. A smaller school with smaller classes may be a better fit.
Or guys that did not flourish until college.
 
As follower of Div 2, I think the gap between the divisions has grown. The cross division tournaments are not near as popular as they were 15-20 years ago. Vegas, Reno, Uno, Cmsu etc used to have D1 starters attend but not much anymore. The last few stud D2s that were D1 AA capable were Hwts with the evidence being world teamers and Midland champs.
 
the likelihood of this bearing any fruit: undefeated 4x D2 champ Iceman Davis got smoked by Dieringer at Beat the Streets. Yes, freestyle -- also, 9-0.
Irrelevant! D1 champs.get whooped by other D1 wrestlers all the time. The most recent 4xer has 3 losses this freestyle season alone
 
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This sounds great in theory, but has some complications -- namely, the seeding criteria would relegate lower-division champs to bottom seeds and often the pigtails. So D1 schools (likely the smaller schools) would lose qualifiers to guys who will never see the podium.

Some D1 programs are judged by having national qualifiers. Is this worth the risk of losing D1 programs? Because when athletics depts lose money, they don't lay off their army of Assistant ADs.

Regarding the likelihood of this bearing any fruit: undefeated 4x D2 champ Iceman Davis got smoked by Dieringer at Beat the Streets. Yes, freestyle -- also, 9-0.
I don't think the D2 and D3 guys would take an existing spot. Just expand the field and have D2 and D3 wrestle in a pigtail and loser goes home and then start round one. It would be 10 more bouts.
 
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. . . of lower division champs? Can’t they reverse the “Haselrig rule” that halted D1 tourney bids to these guys (a common practice prior to Carlton)? Arguing that D2/D3 wrestlers are unfairly fresher in March than D1 counterparts due to easier schedules has grown weak. If worried, set a minimum match count for the highest qualifying sub-D1 rep, working back from the champ until found. If still fearful, have both lower tourneys finish the Sunday prior to D1’s starting, to tire these “slackers” out even more. But honestly, was that the rule’s true reason, or was it simple embarrassment at what an unheralded D2 townie did to D1 opponents for three straight years?
And so what if he did? In a one-on-one sport where crossing divisions was once and rightfully considered acceptable, what’s not to like about having a pigtail match that delivers a 30+ seed from a Match of Thrones (D2 vs. D3 champs)? Imagine the Rocky/Rudy buzz of excitement sweeping all 20 represented D2 and D3 campuses come March. If the only downside is a potentially embarrassing upset of a higher D1 seed, how clueless of the NCAA not to realize that this, in fact, is the incredible, inspiring, interest-generating upside!


They are not terrified. Who was the last D2/3 champ who would have even had a shot? Maybe Haselrig. Tom Martucci also won one but he was a D1 transfer to Trenton State.

With the portal most legit contenders would probably end up D1.
 
Look at some of the great wrestlers in the past who qualified for the D1 tournament through their own division championship tournaments. Haselrig, Wade Schalles and Rick Sanders come to mind very quickly and I'm sure that others on this board can point out other well known names. The D1 tournament used to be THE national championship where every college wrestler had a chance to prove they were #1. I don't get why this opportunity was eliminated.


Two of them were 50 years ago. We also have the portal now.
 
I don't think the D2 and D3 guys would take an existing spot. Just expand the field and have D2 and D3 wrestle in a pigtail and loser goes home and then start round one. It would be 10 more bouts.


D2 and D3 wrestle off. Then what? The winner takes the spot of the last seed. Someone is getting bumped.


Anyone think James Madison should get a shot at the NCAA football playoffs? NO. Even when the field is expanded JMU should not get a spot. If they want a spot then move up like Central Florida.
 
They are not terrified. Who was the last D2/3 champ who would have even had a shot? Maybe Haselrig. Tom Martucci also won one but he was a D1 transfer to Trenton State.

With the portal most legit contenders would probably end up D1.
Who are the last pigtail competitors that had a shot?

I’m in. Bring them back.
 
Irrelevant! D1 champs.get whooped by other D1 wrestlers all the time. The most recent 4xer has 3 losses this freestyle season alone


Which is why the D2/D3 champ is irrelevant. If they have what it takes then move up and compete for the season.
 
Who are the last pigtail competitors that had a shot?

I’m in. Bring them back.


No idea who was the last pigtail competitor who had a shot. I dont really follow specific seedings. I guess if you are hardcore and have OCD you might know. I do know walk ons have been AAs. Walk ons even were champs. Jim Volrath did not even get a shot and I think he would have been AA.


If we are going to give a D3 kid a shot how about giving a D1 backup who has actually beat all Americans a shot too? There are D1 guys who are stuck behind the NCAA champ. Give them a shot.
 
D2 and D3 wrestle off. Then what? The winner takes the spot of the last seed. Someone is getting bumped.


Anyone think James Madison should get a shot at the NCAA football playoffs? NO. Even when the field is expanded JMU should not get a spot. If they want a spot then move up like Central Florida.
D2 could wrestle a guy from #32 seed and D3 could wrestle #33 seed. Or #30 and #31 seeds get a pigtail. So, that is 20 more matches. There are already pigtails for #32 and #33. So, what are 2 more?

D2 and D3 used to have auto bid and it was removed for some reason. It might have been a good reason or maybe not. As wrestling is more an individual sport (the enrollment at a school is not that much of an advantage) it is a way to have 1 college wrestling champion.

And Yes if I though JMU would be competitive with UGA I would watch that game. If JMU upset UGA and made a run at a national championship it would be really interesting. Like a Cinderella in NCAA basketball.

There is no reason to think the best D2 or D3 wrestler would not be competitive vs some of the 33 D1 qualifiers. It's not like the #1 seed and #33 seed are always that competitive either. Maybe that D2 or D3 guy could go on a run and make things interesting.
 
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D2 could wrestle a guy from #15 seed and D3 could wrestle #16 seed. Or #15 and #16 seeds get a pigtail. So, that is 20 more matches. There are already pigtails for #32 and #33. So, what are 2 more?

D2 and D3 used to have auto bid and it was removed for some reason. It might have been a good reason or maybe not. As wrestling is more an individual sport (the enrollment at a school is not that much of an advantage) it is a way to have 1 college wrestling champion.

And Yes if I though JMU would be competitive with UGA I would watch that game. If JMU upset UGA and made a run at a national championship it would be really interesting. Like a Cinderella in NCAA basketball.

There is no reason to think the best D2 or D3 wrestler would not be competitive vs some of the 33 D1 qualifiers. It's not like the #1 seed and #33 seed are always that competitive either. Maybe that D2 or D3 guy could go on a run and make things interesting.


There is reason to think the D2/D3 will not be competitive. They are D2/D3 and are not good enough for D1.


PSU backup at any weight > D2/D3 guy.
 
There is reason to think the D2/D3 will not be competitive. They are D2/D3 and are not good enough for D1.


PSU backup at any weight > D2/D3 guy.
did you read the first post of this thread? a D2 guy won it all three times.

I would be willing to believe there is still a D2/D3 guy out there that is still good enough to win a pigtail. Also, maybe that PSU backup goes to UPJ and wins it all. Or maybe some PSU Commonwealth campus student does it.

It's not like some small school kid can't win a big tournament. The CA HS only has one tournament. I'm sure if the PIAA D2 and D3 champions wrested that would be a good match too.
 
D2 and D3 wrestle off. Then what? The winner takes the spot of the last seed. Someone is getting bumped.


Anyone think James Madison should get a shot at the NCAA football playoffs? NO. Even when the field is expanded JMU should not get a spot. If they want a spot then move up like Central Florida.
they did move up to D1 in the sunbelt conf. Do you mean move up and play the bigger conferences?
 
So you want the lower division wrestler to get a pig tail into the meet how is that fair to the seeded guys he has to wrestle early in the bracket? Would you want to see Dlagnev or Sigman (both Midland champs )wrestling the top seed in round two? Mis-seeding studs hurts the other studs
 
Irrelevant! D1 champs.get whooped by other D1 wrestlers all the time. The most recent 4xer has 3 losses this freestyle season alone
And let’s not forget that the GOAT got pinned in his quest to become GOAT.
 
So you want the lower division wrestler to get a pig tail into the meet how is that fair to the seeded guys he has to wrestle early in the bracket? Would you want to see Dlagnev or Sigman (both Midland champs )wrestling the top seed in round two? Mis-seeding studs hurts the other studs
Add another pigtail. 33 is not a sacred number.
 
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So you want the lower division wrestler to get a pig tail into the meet how is that fair to the seeded guys he has to wrestle early in the bracket? Would you want to see Dlagnev or Sigman (both Midland champs )wrestling the top seed in round two? Mis-seeding studs hurts the other studs
I don't care how they seed them or where the pig tail is. If the argument (this may or may not have been your previous point) is D2/D3 guys shouldn't be on the same mat as D1 guys making the D2/D3 guys a low seed would make sense.

I do not see a downside of 20 more 1st day matches. (I'm sure NCAA would find a way to make this worse). I don't care how they are seeded.

I know this is a point that most everyone disagrees with... I also really think too much is put into seeding. I go to all the sessions of finals so I see most all the matches. If there is a great 1st round match due to underseeding that is fine. The lower can wrestle back for 3rd. I also think 2nd & 3rd should wrestle for a true 2nd place and that wrestler should have another shot to wrestle the first place for the championship. Once one wrestler has two overall losses the other is the champion. Basically a first round loses could have true redemption.

These ideas just makes more matches to watch and that would be better than less matches to watch.
 
This is the kind of idea that looks great until you act on it.

If it were enacted, two years in all the proponents above would be ignoring all the 0-2 guys and would be yawning at the one 3 time D2 champ who squeaks out a win against the 15-14 D1 guy who stole an AQ spot through an upset or an injury default.

It's not 50 years ago. There aren't any Haselrigs or Martuccis lurking out there in the lower divisions. At best there is one heavy every few years that might squeak out a 2-1 win over a top 20 type guy - just like a few below .500 D1 guys can do because, well, they are heavies.

Nostalgia is a photoshop. And that applies to more than wrestling.
 
Who are the last pigtail competitors that had a shot?

I’m in. Bring them back.
I remember lots of crying from Iowa when NCAA gave Marinelli a Department of Justice like screw job and put JoJo Smith in the pigtail after he went up to 165
 
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No ruckus needed here. Just a harmless, early season talking point on a scenario the precious NCAA once backed. It’ll never happen, but I’d be fine with a D2/D3 Match of Thrones for a spot in the pigtail bout. There used to be that intriguing, inspiring window in the division wall when it was reasonable to do so. Today, not so much. Pervasive recruiting, NIL cash and the transfer portal have effectively ended the “Haselrig” thunderbolt. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see another, or just a nail-biting first-round match by a storybook underdog.
Truth be told, I lit the same match over in the cornfield just to get a little rise. Got it, too. The only human-interest story those folks want is: Who transferred to Iowa, and for how much NIL?
 
This is the kind of idea that looks great until you act on it.

If it were enacted, two years in all the proponents above would be ignoring all the 0-2 guys and would be yawning at the one 3 time D2 champ who squeaks out a win against the 15-14 D1 guy who stole an AQ spot through an upset or an injury default.

It's not 50 years ago. There aren't any Haselrigs or Martuccis lurking out there in the lower divisions. At best there is one heavy every few years that might squeak out a 2-1 win over a top 20 type guy - just like a few below .500 D1 guys can do because, well, they are heavies.

Nostalgia is a photoshop. And that applies to more than wrestling.
I can't remember any recent D2 or D3 wrestlers (not even champ) who transferred into D1 and made the podium. (Let's define "recent" as the Cael Era.)

Presumably they'd fare better than if they stayed D2/D3, because they had better coaching and partners, plus seeding criteria would no longer work against them.

Anybody remember anyone like that?
 
Jody Stritmatter only one coming to mind. Even more impressive doing it before Carl invented wrestling.
 
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I can't remember any recent D2 or D3 wrestlers (not even champ) who transferred into D1 and made the podium. (Let's define "recent" as the Cael Era.)

Presumably they'd fare better than if they stayed D2/D3, because they had better coaching and partners, plus seeding criteria would no longer work against them.

Anybody remember anyone like that?

How do.you guys forget D2 champ and Husker AA
Isaiah White
 
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did you read the first post of this thread? a D2 guy won it all three times.

I would be willing to believe there is still a D2/D3 guy out there that is still good enough to win a pigtail. Also, maybe that PSU backup goes to UPJ and wins it all. Or maybe some PSU Commonwealth campus student does it.

It's not like some small school kid can't win a big tournament. The CA HS only has one tournament. I'm sure if the PIAA D2 and D3 champions wrested that would be a good match too.


35 years ago. He was the exception. What D2/3 guy made any noise since then? They can still transfer? Any D2/3 champs ever move up and so anything?
 
Let's do it the other way and let D1 non qualifiers wrestle in the D2 championship.
 
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