Jason Nolf vs RS Freshman David Taylor
- Thread starter Flying_Tiger
- Start date
Will revisit this again after Nationals, but at this exact point in both of their careers, has to be Nolf
I'm with Kid on this one. In all likelihood we'll have Nolf vs Imar parts 2 and 3. If Nolf wins the championship, its Nolf. If he doesn't, it will depend on how nationals plays out for him. So I believe it is still a story to be written.So who you got?
Yes, with the caveat that Magic Man made it to the finals of the Championship Bracket.... IOW, the bar has been set pretty high for J-No...absolute perfection, but he looks like he is wrestling even better right now, heading into the post-season tournaments, than at any other point in the season if that's even possible!
The impressive thing is that Jason will wear a kid out and then HE decides when to pin him. His cement jobs are so fast... you'll miss it if you blink. The cement hasn't even hit the mat... before the hand does. Yes... that quick.
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Agree with Kid, on a team point per match basis, JN is ahead of the Magic Man. Big Tens and the NCAA tourney is the final arbiter of this debate.
I believe there is method to his madness....the "pancake" / "cement mixer" is a fairly easy move to defend from your "base" (e.g., knees) when a wrestler is "fresh" - it is exponentially harder to defend when you are tired and your opponent is significantly fresher. Essentially you can't defend it because your opponent simply over-powers you eve once you understand that he is executing this very fundamental and basic "pinning combination" on you - you just don't have the strength to fend it off by maitaining leverage (notice how J-No has waited until his opponent has started to rise and lost the leverage of their base before he has hit them straight on with a pancake pinning-combo both Friday night and Saturday night? Looked like mirror images of one another.).
One thing to keep in mind is that the scoring has changed. Tech falls are different, stalling, and near falls. i can remember Taylor working to turn guys who would just clam up underneath only to secure the major later in the match with some quick tds when it became evident the refs weren't going to call anything to make the guy work.
In all honesty, I did not take these points into consideration. Having said that, I think the most impact on scoring this year is the change in stalling rules. It leaves inferior wrestlers more vulnerable to scoring. Would be interesting to see the difference between 4 and 5 point tech falls between Nolf and Taylor. Sorry fellas, my ADD doesn't allow for the work necessary.
The impressive thing is that Jason will wear a kid out and then HE decides when to pin him. His cement jobs are so fast... you'll miss it if you blink. The cement hasn't even hit the mat... before the hand does. Yes... that quick.
Is there any move that has more names? Cow Catcher (I believe this is used in Pennsy exclusively), pancake, Cement Mixer, Cement Job....etc...
IIRC, was a favorite of Andrew Alton when he was pinning people left and right before his injuries. Kind of funny, it is one of the most basic moves you learn when beginning wrestling - not terribly difficult to execute if you can hit it with leverage, but still one of the most deadly pinning combinations (especially the double-underhook variety) because of the way it holds the opponents head off the mat so they can't bridge while flattening the shoulder-blades to the mat as flat as a "pancake". Always struck by how fundamental and basic this move is (not sophisticated or hard to execute in the least - all about "timing" and "leverage" more than anything), but is just a "timeless" pinning combination used by some of the best "fall artists" - ditto "the cradle" in all it's various forms.
I like the modifications to the stalling rules - makes purely defensive wrestlers more vulnerable. I do think they need to institute a "stand-up clock" when the bottom wrestler makes it to his feet, the "top wrestler" (or wrestler "in control") should be put on a fixed count to get the bottom man back to the mat or automatic stalling should be called (similar to the riding the lower-leg rule). Stalling should also be called if the top wrestler makes no attempt to return the bottom wrestler to the mat, but instead simply "runs him OB".
The comparisons between Nolf and DT are obvious. But I think Nolf has a bit of Matt Brown in him also. He just grinds opponents down. He's clearly more brutal on his opponents than DT. The fact that Nolf has some many offensive weapons (much like DT) in addition to the unparalleled gas tank and his physicality makes me lean toward him.
DT had St.John, Fittery, and highly experienced Bubba who also had insider knowledge on DT.
I think 157 might be deeper this year. I'd lean toward Nolf but a few chapters left to be written.
Maybe another thread for a few weeks down the road, but: St. John, Fittery, Bubba vs JoJo, Gantt, Miller, IMAR
Who had the tougher path?
DT had St.John, Fittery, and highly experienced Bubba who also had insider knowledge on DT.
I think 157 might be deeper this year. I'd lean toward Nolf but a few chapters left to be written.
Maybe another thread for a few weeks down the road, but: St. John, Fittery, Bubba vs JoJo, Gantt, Miller, IMAR
Who had the tougher path?
It would not be hard to argue for either of these guys, but that said I say Jason Nolf. I do think the 4 point nearfall rule would have really helped Taylor as I think he was a little better with his top work than Nolf is. Nolf just has so many different attacks from his feet and uses his neutral offence to bypass top work and gets pins off of ankle picks and cement mixers,etc. It also seems like maybe Nolf is a little quicker. RS Cael vs Nolf is another debate for another day. Very similar imo. Funny side note. I have repeatedly told my youth kids to watch Nolf as an example of great attack wrestling. I have been trying to cut down the wild headlocks and one of our toughest little guys told me "Nolf does it- are you smarter than him?" Damn kids!
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I think I have to go with Nolf at this point because of the IMAR match. Did DT beat anyone as good as IMAR his RS Fresh year? IMAR pretty much dominated everybody he wrestled last year and there was talk that he would go undefeated for his career due to his dominance. I may have a different opinion after the NCAA tourney.
Both are relentless. I believe I have seen a wider range of offense from Nolf. I would also say Jason has shown himself to have a mean streak which Taylor didn't show to the same degree. Taylor would have certainly would love the new rules.
Nolf is more physical than DT, especially in neutral. He wears his guys down in neutral from a combination of constant pressure, but also physicality. That is why he is able to take so many wrestlers to their backs from neutral for falls - we saw it the last two days, we saw it with I-Mar, etc... DT had far more "finesse", but a great technical wrestler. Nolf is much more physical, especially in neutral and still a very good technical wrestler who maintains constant pressure. In many ways, Nolf is like a cross between DT and KD imho.
It is safer on the fence with all the BS lately it is getting deep.
The impressive thing is that Jason will wear a kid out and then HE decides when to pin him. His cement jobs are so fast... you'll miss it if you blink. The cement hasn't even hit the mat... before the hand does. Yes... that quick.
Nolf uses "Quickbeat" cement mix.
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Call it a draw. Love 'em both. Different wrestlers.
DT
Record: 38-1
Falls: 8
Tech Falls: 15
Majors: 11
% Bonus: 87.2%
19 Duals
Dual Takedowns (For/Against): 86-5
Dual Reversals: 7
Forced Stalls: 5
Riding Time Pts: 9
NearFall 2: 14
NearFall 3: 21
J-No
Record: 25-0
Falls: 12
Tech Falls: 7
Majors: 4
% Bonus: 92%
15 Duals
Dual Takedowns (For/Against): 85-3 (Close, I don't have all the MSU results yet)
Dual Reversals: 2
Forced Stalls: 13
Riding Time Pts: 6
NearFall 2: 0
NearFall 4: 10
DT
Record: 38-1
Falls: 8
Tech Falls: 15
Majors: 11
% Bonus: 87.2%
19 Duals
Dual Takedowns (For/Against): 86-5
Dual Reversals: 7
Forced Stalls: 5
Riding Time Pts: 9
NearFall 2: 14
NearFall 3: 21
J-No
Record: 25-0
Falls: 12
Tech Falls: 7
Majors: 4
% Bonus: 92%
15 Duals
Dual Takedowns (For/Against): 85-3 (Close, I don't have all the MSU results yet)
Dual Reversals: 2
Forced Stalls: 13
Riding Time Pts: 6
NearFall 2: 0
NearFall 4: 10
I seem to remember Taylor saying during his freshman year, that his father had encouraged him to work on technical falls instead of falls so matches would last longer. That he way he would get more of a workout and more experience. t's not that he couldn't pin, he didn't want to pin.
Thanks Roar, great comparison. My inadequacies did not allow for this detailed work. Most people call it laziness.
Shoot. He wears them out and then as he releases them if they don'f face him ready he hits that CM/PC with a 2 step running start.
And we thought we might never see another David Taylor.
Took 5 years.
Gotta love this program.
Agree. Nothing like getting a "once a generation" type athlete twice in a generation!And we thought we might never see another David Taylor.
Took 5 years.
Gotta love this program.
And we thought we might never see another David Taylor.
Took 5 years.
Gotta love this program.
With the talent coming out of high school, we can't use the "once in a generation", "once in a lifetime", or any of those sayings anymore.
And I think we're missing a great wrestler by not including Ed Ruth in this thread. At worst, and at best, on par with DT.
Lastly, J-No's not the only "talent" on our current team...Zain and Bo will be near the top of our record books too. Let's hope for good health for all the guys.
I said it before on this sight, the Iowa and Okie St fans were jealous and waiting for the DT and Ruth exit. Now they have to wait for the Nolf, Nickal, and ZTrain exit. Who knows what's next? Maybe Hall, Joesph, Suriano, Cruz, Manville, not to mention the Lees (including maybe Spencer). A lot of firepower.
I find it hard to believe that a wrestler would shave/intentionally sacrifice team points as a personal development strategy.
Actually, Franklin, these aren't the same moves. Pancake is over hook with a cross face. Cement Job and Mixer are overhook with chin cup hard, and underhook.....Job or Mixer is defined by which direction you go. Job with the underhook over the top, mixer is a serious nasty twist using the overhook and chin. My son would mixer from standing and it was nothing short of violent. Cow catcher is used everywhere and is double underhooks (sorta like the cow catcher on a steam locomotive). Cows are the fun, exclusive territory of the shooter coming in for a double with arms flying....the kiss of death.
Nolf's is more like a Pancake than a Job since there is no chin involved...but the underhook could have you calling it a Job too. Since it's also initiated by Nolf....could also call it a Job since a Pancake, like a chin whip is a direct counter to a shot.
Nolf - pffft! A Lehigh guy in Wrestling Report said he should have gotten a stalling call. I guess that's the rule when he goes more than 15 seconds without a shot. Wrestlers can't all be like Riddick or Beckman.
David was an offensive juggernaut, but not really a "pinner" early in his college career. Can't remember any quotes from his dad (though my memory is not what it used to be
) like Roar More posted, though it does make sense if he mentioned that his son was offensively focused and wanted to score as many points as possible...but not in lieu of falls.
Yep, you guys are right, the exceptional athlete isn't as much of an exception anymore. I'll second the Ed Ruth mention as well.
Funny how these exceptional athletes seem to be mainly popping up at one school.
Where I was from (and the generation - 1970s), we called them all "pancake moves". We distinguished by arm-tie.....for instance an "over-hook/under-hook pancake" or a "double under-hook pancake", etc... We used the Chin-Whip and Cross-Face variety too generally with an under-hook, but still called the pinning-combo a "pancake". We called the whole series of moves where you end up with at least one arm underhooked, the head isolated by either the arm-pit or the other arm locked around the head and finally, you end up "chest-to-chest" after completion of the throw/turn a "pancake combo". Similar to the way "cradle" is generally used for several different kinds of moves all of which are "cradles".
Agree with you that Cement Mixer and Cement Job have come to mean specific moves (e.g., over/under-hook w/ chin-whip providing initial momentum to make turn), but I don't think this parlance existed in 1970s and I always thought "pancake" was the generic term applied to the whole series of pinning combinations involving an over/under-hook and "turn impetus" with the other arm be it a chin-whip, cross-face, over-hook claw on arm-pit/shoulder, 2nd underhook, etc... BTW, I do agree that Cowcatcher was used exclusively to describe the "double under-hook pancake" as it was applied straight-on, just as cowcatcher on a train works.
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