Jason Nolf vs RS Freshman David Taylor

[Cowbell Man]

Where I was from (and the generation - 1970s), we called them all "pancake moves". We distinguished by arm-tie.....for instance an "over-hook/under-hook pancake" or a "double under-hook pancake", etc... We used the Chin-Whip and Cross-Face variety too generally with an under-hook, but still called the pinning-combo a "pancake". We called the whole series of moves where you end up with at least one arm underhooked, the head isolated by either the arm-pit or the other arm locked around the head and finally, you end up "chest-to-chest" after completion of the throw/turn a "pancake combo". Similar to the way "cradle" is generally used for several different kinds of moves all of which are "cradles".

Agree with you that Cement Mixer and Cement Job have come to mean specific moves (e.g., over/under-hook w/ chin-whip providing initial momentum to make turn), but I don't think this parlance existed in 1970s and I always thought "pancake" was the generic term applied to the whole series of pinning combinations involving an over/under-hook and "turn impetus" with the other arm be it a chin-whip, cross-face, over-hook claw on arm-pit/shoulder, 2nd underhook, etc... BTW, I do agree that Cowcatcher was used exclusively to describe the "double under-hook pancake" as it was applied straight-on, just as cowcatcher on a train works.

Pretty funny, the varying invented terms. I have often been heard saying "what? We called that a "(blank)"

I'm in your generation, and only the cross face Pancake was called a pancake. Unlike the others which as you suggest largely end up chest to chest, the cross face Pancake led directly to a headlock.

Now...let's discuss the finer points of the Merkle, Schalles and....lol. Good stuff for a Monday holiday morning when my lazy son is just getting out of bed to go skiing....when I would have left hours ago.

Oh...and I forgot, since the thread is slightly hijacked.......I'm not ever going to underestimate DT's ability to adjust even as a Freshman. I'd be hard pressed to place money on a bet like this, but since this is for a Red Tiddlywink, I'm giving an edge to DT. To be fair, Nolf hasn't faced a DT either....I don't know what that would look like.

 

[BDB57]

Funny how these exceptional athletes seem to be mainly popping up at one school.

There are some schools who don't see the humor in that statement!!

I would also mention I first saw the intentional escape turned pancake done by Matt Brown a few years ago. reinforcing the notion of comparing Jason's mean streak and physicality to Browns.

 

[Dogwelder]

> I'm not ever going to underestimate DT's
> ability to adjust even as a Freshman.

One thing that always surprised me about DT's body of work in college and afterward is that after those very few people beat him, DT has not managed to exact revenge by making enough adjustments. He certainly came close a few times, but did not quite succeed. The shortage of successful adjustments surprises me because DT is such a technician, and he has high-quality coaching. It is a small sample size, but it still surprises me. I'm thinking of Jenkins (practice room then NCAA Finals), Dake, and Burroughs.

Anyhow, I am a huge DT/Penn State fan, and I hope nobody gets upset at this post.

 

[Cowbell Man]

There are some schools who don't see the humor in that statement!!

I would also mention I first saw the intentional escape turned pancake done by Matt Brown a few years ago. reinforcing the notion of comparing Jason's mean streak and physicality to Browns.

this is so weird......how did this "escape" so many people? I used it in HS, taught it to my varsity wrestlers in the late 80's, had midgets doing it years ago. It's just something you don't see at this level often because there is too much experience with it. I credit Nolf's speed, but really.....it's the exhaustion he created in these two less quality wrestlers in a short period of time. The move was available and it really shouldn't be.

 

[Cowbell Man]

> I'm not ever going to underestimate DT's
> ability to adjust even as a Freshman.

One thing that always surprised me about DT's body of work in college and afterward is that after those very few people beat him, DT has not managed to exact revenge by making enough adjustments. He certainly came close a few times, but did not quite succeed. The shortage of successful adjustments surprises me because DT is such a technician, and he has high-quality coaching. It is a small sample size, but it still surprises me. I'm thinking of Jenkins (practice room then NCAA Finals), Dake, and Burroughs.

Anyhow, I am a huge DT/Penn State fan, and I hope nobody gets upset at this post.

JACKWAGON!! I can't BELIEVE YOU POSTED THIS, YOU DISLOYALIST NERD.





lol.....just kidding. I couldn't resist. Find me for a beer next weekend.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

this is so weird......how did this "escape" so many people? I used it in HS, taught it to my varsity wrestlers in the late 80's, had midgets doing it years ago. It's just something you don't see at this level often because there is too much experience with it. I credit Nolf's speed, but really.....it's the exhaustion he created in these two less quality wrestlers in a short period of time. The move was available and it really shouldn't be.

Agree. It is one of the most fundamental pinning-combos you learn as a Jr. Wrestler. It is not a difficult move to execute except that it is 100% about timing and leverage. Not a difficult move to defend assuming you understand what is happening - just as you say, the exhaustion causes a wrestler to lose focus and they have zero safety-net in regards to "leverage" when exhausted as well. This is why J-No waited until his opponents on Fri and Sat began to rise - they had lost their base and leverage....Jason simply overpowered them with the pancake and they had nothing left to fight it. Once you're turned, this move, and all of it's cousins, are deadly because your upper-body is just pinned (e.g., "pancaked") to the mat with your head isolated and your opponent chest-to-chest - there is no escape if somebody has locked it in tight.

I've seen it excuted on the "release" like that. The other one that is common is when a wrestler has superior position in neutral from a face-to-face position (e.g., your opponent has his head buried underneath your chest). I was always taught to slacken one side such that your weight is slightly heavier on one side and maintain your under- or over-hook on the other arm. Your opponent will feel this and attempt to "duck through" the side you've lightened.....as you feel them coming up to try to duck through and circle around you. When you feel his weight coming up and moving toward the side you lightened, you hit 'em with the chin-whip or cross-face pancake (or to use your terminology, either a "cement mixer or job" [depending on which side you lightened] or pancake). Which did you say is a "cement mixer", when you pull the chin counter-clockwise right? (e.g., "cement job" would be a chin-whip pulling chin clockwise correct?).

 

[GOLDBANGER]

A lot of these moves are local, team or even specific wrestler vernacular. Our high school team called locking on the chin and underhook on the other side "the spike". One of our kids held the quickest pin at the state tournament for years with this move. I believe the time was 6 seconds and stood for a very long time. The kid was pinned in 3 but the official was our of position, not a shocker as quick as it was.

 

[BDB57]

this is so weird......how did this "escape" so many people? I used it in HS, taught it to my varsity wrestlers in the late 80's, had midgets doing it years ago. It's just something you don't see at this level often because there is too much experience with it. I credit Nolf's speed, but really.....it's the exhaustion he created in these two less quality wrestlers in a short period of time. The move was available and it really shouldn't be.

Cowbell,
That was part of my comparison between Nolf and Brown. Those type of moves do not happen for a reason and the fact that both Brown and Nolf used their sheer power to complete them in and of itself quite impressive!

Add to that, Jason has a few other non-conventional falls this season. Very creative and aware of whats happening!

 

[fp1]

I'd have to give the edge to Nolf thus far. He has pinned an undefeated national champ during his RS Frosh year. Remains to be seen if he can make an NCAA final though.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

These arguments are the classic example of each of us seeing things not necessarily how they are but instead seeing them how we are.
My Dad would never in a million years concede to me that Cael was better than Gable as a college wrestler. He is a Hawkeye fan foremost, so I have always felt he was biased in favor of Gable from the coaching success. He always thought I was too young to understand just how great Gable really was. Nobody could win that argument with my old man. He is a bigger wrestling fan than I am, and even with advancing years keeps up through the newspaper and coffee shop talk. He just can't do the whole internet thing he says.
DT vs Nolf is unique because they are wrestling in the same era. Future results will lend a hand to one argument or another, but most of us will stick to our original position because of what that wrestler meant to us individually. I can't hardly say David Taylor without an image of Ed Ruth popping into my head. They go together. Zain is the bridge between those two legends and this Nolf/Bo combo. Is Zain better than all four? It could be argued. I will probably go to my grave thinking Cael is the greatest college wrestler of all time, and it doesn't matter what anyone else does between now and then. Humans are funny creatures.

 

[lionlover]

"My Dad would never in a million years concede to me that Cael was better than Gable as a college wrestler"

No college in America produced two more dominant wrestling coaches than the Iowa Cyclones!

 

[purescurve]

"My Dad would never in a million years concede to me that Cael was better than Gable as a college wrestler"

No college in America produced two more dominant wrestling coaches than the Iowa Cyclones!

IMO gable was fierce and cael was slick. Both dominant. Be interesting how many of caels students become coaches and the impact it will have going forward,

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

"My Dad would never in a million years concede to me that Cael was better than Gable as a college wrestler"

No college in America produced two more dominant wrestling coaches than the Iowa Cyclones!

Three because you have to include Gable's mentor, Dr. Harold Nichols, who himself was recognized as the "greatest coach" in the land with the most dominant program from the early 1960's until the mid-1970's (in fact, Gable was his pupil both as a wrestler and coach).

 

[Ankle Pick]

Purescurve - that's a really good point... sort of like the vast "coaching tree" of Mike Holmgrom in the NFL.. - would be interesting who makes the coaching jump... first thoughts of Cael-disciples would be DT, Mega, Nolf, Matt Brown, MM and QW. All with that "coaching" mentality.... (honestly, I think this whole current roster has a bit of the "coaching" gene in them, with maybe the current exception of JG..)..- btw.. I am a Gulibon Fan!.. he just needs to figure some things out and he'll be fine.. maybe not in the timetable we all want, but he'll be fine.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Cowbell,
That was part of my comparison between Nolf and Brown. Those type of moves do not happen for a reason and the fact that both Brown and Nolf used their sheer power to complete them in and of itself quite impressive!

Add to that, Jason has a few other non-conventional falls this season. Very creative and aware of whats happening!

I understand. And..."non-conventional" I'll say! Add that to my fairly routine statement during Nickal's matches..."Is that a move?"

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I understand. And..."non-conventional" I'll say! Add that to my fairly routine statement during Nickal's matches..."Is that a move?"

Too funny, I've thought the same thing while watching Bo and Jason -- they both have used a move that I've only seen them really do, I'm going to call it the "butter churn", where they have the guy completely turned upside down and then churn him around on his head before jumping directly down onto them. J-No used it on I-Mar right before the fall. I'm kidding of course, but they both get in some wacky scrambles that look eerily similar.....with similar results too!

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Purescurve - that's a really good point... sort of like the vast "coaching tree" of Mike Holmgrom in the NFL.. - would be interesting who makes the coaching jump... first thoughts of Cael-disciples would be DT, Mega, Nolf, Matt Brown, MM and QW. All with that "coaching" mentality.... (honestly, I think this whole current roster has a bit of the "coaching" gene in them, with maybe the current exception of JG..)..- btw.. I am a Gulibon Fan!.. he just needs to figure some things out and he'll be fine.. maybe not in the timetable we all want, but he'll be fine.

You would have to include Frank the Tank as well -- he's already coached at another program before coming back to PSU, but I would say he is a likely candidate to get picked off the staff at some point.

 

[Ankle Pick]

Franklin - duh.. my bad... of course.. who could forget Frank the Tank... He looks good in the corner... natural leader in every aspect.... I wander if any of them would ever consider taking a position at a place like Iowa or Ohio St.... that would be a hard transition for me to "root for" into "root against" ...

 

[El-Jefe]

I understand. And..."non-conventional" I'll say! Add that to my fairly routine statement during Nickal's matches..."Is that a move?"

Such as: is The Brunson a move?

 

[NEPAwolverine]

"My Dad would never in a million years concede to me that Cael was better than Gable as a college wrestler"

No college in America produced two more dominant wrestling coaches than the Iowa Cyclones!

.
.
not yet, dude. check back in a couple of years....

 

[Cowbell Man]

Agree. It is one of the most fundamental pinning-combos you learn as a Jr. Wrestler. It is not a difficult move to execute except that it is 100% about timing and leverage. Not a difficult move to defend assuming you understand what is happening - just as you say, the exhaustion causes a wrestler to lose focus and they have zero safety-net in regards to "leverage" when exhausted as well. This is why J-No waited until his opponents on Fri and Sat began to rise - they had lost their base and leverage....Jason simply overpowered them with the pancake and they had nothing left to fight it. Once you're turned, this move, and all of it's cousins, are deadly because your upper-body is just pinned (e.g., "pancaked") to the mat with your head isolated and your opponent chest-to-chest - there is no escape if somebody has locked it in tight.

I've seen it excuted on the "release" like that. The other one that is common is when a wrestler has superior position in neutral from a face-to-face position (e.g., your opponent has his head buried underneath your chest). I was always taught to slacken one side such that your weight is slightly heavier on one side and maintain your under- or over-hook on the other arm. Your opponent will feel this and attempt to "duck through" the side you've lightened.....as you feel them coming up to try to duck through and circle around you. When you feel his weight coming up and moving toward the side you lightened, you hit 'em with the chin-whip or cross-face pancake (or to use your terminology, either a "cement mixer or job" [depending on which side you lightened] or pancake). Which did you say is a "cement mixer", when you pull the chin counter-clockwise right? (e.g., "cement job" would be a chin-whip pulling chin clockwise correct?).

Sorry Franklin, I forgot to respond to your questions.

The Chin Whip is more specific in that the opponent has made a head outside shot and hasn't kept the head on the hip. You reach for the chin on the hip, over hook with the free arm cranking down and whip the chin over your hip to the ground. You'll end up more stomach to his face up.....maybe chest to chest like a mixer. Receiving this....hurts, as I found out a few years ago in Chertow's room with a state placer that Ken declared should challenge me to a match in front of a room full of kids...then letting everyone know I was the Lion.....grrrrr, Chertow. I was now obliged to win. I left my head wide on a C and the kid whipped hard. I fought thru for the TD but paid for that mistake...yikes.

Cross face Pancake is sometimes from the head out side, but usually head inside and the cross face usually leads you to the headlock since you already have also the overhook. Like the Chin Whip, a hip high counter move so often. I would be shocked to see this in collegiate match.

Mixer vs Job (may or may not be the result of a shot) isn't counter clockwise or clockwise...that depends on which arm is underhook and which is chin. Often the choice is set by your snap or pull forward to feel the lightened side.....and even better if you can initiate 2-3 imbalances on the way to the move. Job is driving the underhook side over the top and chin side under. Mixer is a literal twist of your body, pulling the chin over and pulling the under hook side under with your twist. It's a big enough crank from the knees, but for the few who do it standing.....it is violent and the opponent has little clue it was coming, and those who do, pay for it a day later for countering. Both end with a step over and something near chest to chest...though the mixer ends with so much down pressure on the chin that you can pin with separation.

 

[El-Jefe]

Jamarr Billman won a PA state finals match in about 20 sec by hitting 2 standing cement mixers consecutively.


... and Zeke Moisey spectacularly failed with one in the state finals, got headlocked and pinned by Ryan Diehl in about 45 sec.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Jamarr Billman won a PA state finals match in about 20 sec by hitting 2 standing cement mixers consecutively.

View embedded media

... and Zeke Moisey spectacularly failed with one in the state finals, got headlocked and pinned by Ryan Diehl in about 45 sec.

View embedded media

Well done Jefe. Zeke tried another vs NaTo in the finals. Didn't work there either but I had to applaud the all out effort. Vs. Diehl, he did not have the chin, but around the neck and if you don't have that chin pulling the head...they ain't going where you want'em.

 

[psugrad85]

Jamarr Billman won a PA state finals match in about 20 sec by hitting 2 standing cement mixers consecutively.

View embedded media

... and Zeke Moisey spectacularly failed with one in the state finals, got headlocked and pinned by Ryan Diehl in about 45 sec.

View embedded media

Diehl, Nolf's only high school loss

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Sorry Franklin, I forgot to respond to your questions.

The Chin Whip is more specific in that the opponent has made a head outside shot and hasn't kept the head on the hip. You reach for the chin on the hip, over hook with the free arm cranking down and whip the chin over your hip to the ground. You'll end up more stomach to his face up.....maybe chest to chest like a mixer. Receiving this....hurts, as I found out a few years ago in Chertow's room with a state placer that Ken declared should challenge me to a match in front of a room full of kids...then letting everyone know I was the Lion.....grrrrr, Chertow. I was now obliged to win. I left my head wide on a C and the kid whipped hard. I fought thru for the TD but paid for that mistake...yikes.

Cross face Pancake is sometimes from the head out side, but usually head inside and the cross face usually leads you to the headlock since you already have also the overhook. Like the Chin Whip, a hip high counter move so often. I would be shocked to see this in collegiate match.

Mixer vs Job (may or may not be the result of a shot) isn't counter clockwise or clockwise...that depends on which arm is underhook and which is chin. Often the choice is set by your snap or pull forward to feel the lightened side.....and even better if you can initiate 2-3 imbalances on the way to the move. Job is driving the underhook side over the top and chin side under. Mixer is a literal twist of your body, pulling the chin over and pulling the under hook side under with your twist. It's a big enough crank from the knees, but for the few who do it standing.....it is violent and the opponent has little clue it was coming, and those who do, pay for it a day later for countering. Both end with a step over and something near chest to chest...though the mixer ends with so much down pressure on the chin that you can pin with separation.

Ahhh, got it it depends whether you're driving the hooked arm over (Job) OR the non-hooked arm side is driven over torquing head & spine with the chin (Mixer). I've seen the Mixer from a Standing Position - when I saw it, the wrestler being "Mixed" was literally halfway onto the "Mixer's" back/hip. When the "Mixer" finally torqued the guys chin, the "Mixed" wrestler looked like a "whirling dervish" - legs and body flying and spinning at the same time directly to their back from high in the air (the Mixing wrestler essentially iserted and loaded his hip at the exact same time as the chin-cup and the "Mixed" wrestler literally went flying @ss-over-tit!).

Hey, another expression that I hear nowadays that was never used when I was a kid....."near fall combination".....the expression used in my area, in my generation was always "pinning combination" as the "goal" of the combo was always a pin, not just a "near fall points". There's another one that differs from my generation in my area -- people always used either "back points" or "near fall points", but there was only one variety of points for schoolboy wrestlers (3 points for 3 count) - think it was the same for Collegiate Folkstyle at the time, but not really sure as I only knew the rules that applied to HS and ES wrestlers. My sense is that the term "exposure points" (which was exclusively a Freestyle term in my generation - many of us wrestled "Free" in the off-season to school-sponsored "Folk"....e.g., late Spring and Summer) really started being used more in Folk when they went to 2 Points for a short count...e.g., 2-Count. And the traditional Folk-terms of "back points" or "near fall points" were used more for the full "near fall" count which is now 4 and used to be 3. Just rambling, but it is interesting how the lingo changes - especially between "Free" and "Folk" - as the rules and dynamics of Folk change over time.