Mad Men Finale - your thoughts?

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Ahh... That makes sense. Thanks.

Don especially related to the woman talking to Stephanie about how her child will be looking at the door every day waiting for her to come home; Don's 'mommy issues' are a big one (noting his mother died in childbirth and didn't necessarily give him up intentionally).

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Yes, but Don has changed. He hasn't changed in the sense that he's still an advertising man at heart which is CDW's basic premise, but the old Don Draper would not have been capable of coming up with the Coke ad.

Not necessarily - Don's pitch for nearly every product on the show (Kodak's Slide Projector, Hershey's, etc.) was based on some sort of nostalgic sentiment. I do think his coming up with the Coke ad was Don evolving like CDW mentioned - he's able to connect with the consumer in way that is sentimental, but not necessarily nostalgic.

All that said, this is a great discussion .

 

[CDW3333]

Not necessarily - Don's pitch for nearly every product on the show (Kodak's Slide Projector, Hershey's, etc.) was based on some sort of nostalgic sentiment. I do think his coming up with the Coke ad was Don evolving like CDW mentioned - he's able to connect with the consumer in way that is sentimental, but not necessarily nostalgic.

All that said, this is a great discussion .

Nostalgia was Don's theme for a while. Of course his definition of nostalgia is "a longing for a place that never actually existed." (Think those Budweiser Holiday ads). People is the late Sixties were uncomfortable with the rapid pace of change and wanted a simpler life and Don was prepared to exploit that desire. Then it all came crashing down in the Hershey's meeting when he realized that his whole existence was based on a place that never actually existed, that he'd fallen for his own BS.

Now he's prepared to exploit the desire to be "real" to sell sugar water. And who better to do it than a guy who is phony to the core?

 

[royboy]

Nostalgia was Don's theme for a while. Of course his definition of nostalgia is "a longing for a place that never actually existed." (Think those Budweiser Holiday ads). People is the late Sixties were uncomfortable with the rapid pace of change and wanted a simpler life and Don was prepared to exploit that desire. Then it all came crashing down in the Hershey's meeting when he realized that his whole existence was based on a place that never actually existed, that he'd fallen for his own BS.

Now he's prepared to exploit the desire to be "real" to sell sugar water. And who better to do it than a guy who is phony to the core?

Sounds like you have little respect for advertising, and hated the Don Draper character, "phony to the core".

Yet you watched the series and felt the need to comment here about it?

 

[klive]

The invisible part wasn't what I thought he connected it, it was the feeling of being unable to feel loved. Don is always looking for love, but when he has it, he doesn't really feel it and looks elsewhere to fill that void. So I think he connected with that guy's loneliness.

The calendar was actually November in Joan's dining Room, and also, a few scenes before in Peggy's office, she had Halloween decorations hanging on her door, so the timing of everything leading up to the end of the show could absolutely lead you to believe that Don created the ad given that it came out in 1971.

 

[CDW3333]

Sounds like you have little respect for advertising, and hated the Don Draper character, "phony to the core".

Yet you watched the series and felt the need to comment here about it?

I loved the show! I like Othello, too, but I can't stand Iago, even though I'm fascinated by him. I have the same reaction to Don.

You seem to think that to like a TV show you have to like all the characters. I liked Sally, and Stan, and Peggy, and Roger, and Bert. Isn't that enough?

But you're right about one thing. I do despise advertising.

 

[ApexLion]

Nostalgia was Don's theme for a while. Of course his definition of nostalgia is "a longing for a place that never actually existed." (Think those Budweiser Holiday ads). People is the late Sixties were uncomfortable with the rapid pace of change and wanted a simpler life and Don was prepared to exploit that desire. Then it all came crashing down in the Hershey's meeting when he realized that his whole existence was based on a place that never actually existed, that he'd fallen for his own BS.

Now he's prepared to exploit the desire to be "real" to sell sugar water. And who better to do it than a guy who is phony to the core?

I could not disagree more. All along Don has been playing checkers while others struggle to play checkers. It has nothing to with being phony and everything to do with his ability to remove his emotion, his sentimentality and even his history from the equation. Don was based on a real person, a famous ad man that could advertise anything because he had no preconceptions based on the values of his time or some other societal construct. Unlike faux lawyering anonymously on BWI, advertising takes savvy, skill and vision -- a mind that is unencumbered by bias or preferences. Don was that guy and we got to watch him.

 

[thecoolestfish]

I loved the show! I like Othello, too, but I can't stand Iago, even though I'm fascinated by him. I have the same reaction to Don.

You seem to think that to like a TV show you have to like all the characters. I liked Sally, and Stan, and Peggy, and Roger, and Bert. Isn't that enough?

But you're right about one thing. I do despise advertising.

I love many of your posts, CDW -- especially on the test board, and I really liked your first post on this thread -- but I have to say that I really got a kick out of this one -- one that included a supposed *lawyer* saying he despises another profession.

 

[CDW3333]

I could not disagree more. All along Don has been playing checkers while others struggle to play checkers. It has nothing to with being phony and everything to do with his ability to remove his emotion, his sentimentality and even his history from the equation. Don was based on a real person, a famous ad man that could advertise anything because he had no preconceptions based on the values of his time or some other societal construct. Unlike faux lawyering anonymously on BWI, advertising takes savvy, skill and vision -- a mind that is unencumbered by bias or preferences. Don was that guy and we got to watch him.

Don was a liar, a cheat, and a philanderer. He was unreliable, let down everybody close to him, and ended up alone and friendless.

If you think this is somebody to emulate, you need your bearings checked.

That's not to say he wasn't a very interesting character and I'd rather watch a show about an interesting character than one who is good but boring.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Don was a liar, a cheat, and a philanderer. He was unreliable, let down everybody close to him, and ended up alone and friendless.

If you think this is somebody to emulate, you need your bearings checked.

That's not to say he wasn't a very interesting character and I'd rather watch a show about an interesting character than one who is good but boring.

I agree with this despite liking Don (mostly) a lot. He was an emotional coward, 'only liked the beginnings of things', a murdering identity thief, a terrible husband, a somewhat better father, and an excellent ad man. Which is why he was always trying to steer others down a different path (and it actually kind of worked for Pete).

 

[manatree]

The timeline is something else that makes me think that Don did not do the Coke commercial. The show was known for their obsession attention to accuracy of historic detail.

At the beginning of the episode, Draper is in Utah and tells Sally about seeing the new land speed record being set. So that makes it at least past October 23, 1970.

The whole Buy The World Coke campaign started as radio commercials in February of 1971.

I just don't see how how Draper could go from the retreat (which is at least several days after October 23, possibly into November) and go back to McCann Erickson (a company portrayed as being very vindictive) and win back enough trust to be placed on a national campaign for a big company like Coke in by February 1971.

Also, even though Draper created campaigns for real companies and real products, the show never actually used an ad from real life. I don't see why they would suddenly change now and use a real ad.

Even after watching the episode three times, I still stand by my take that the closing song was just another example of the show's pattern using an era appropriate song to reflect Draper's place in the world at the time. Don ends up apparently happy on a commune, and despite it's winding road, advertising led him there. That commercial was era accurate and reflects the corporate world finally embracing the counter culture like Don finally has.

All in all, Pete Campbell is still my favorite character. He was always crystal clear with who he was, even as he evolved over time.

 

[Judge Smails]

yeah, could be. But I see a kinder, gentler Don at the end. He's lost a lot -- his job (at least for the time being), his second marriage, a big chunk of money to Megan, his fancy apartment, his car, etc. But he does come in closer touch with his feelings; he gets out into the world outside of Madison Avenue and goes through an encounter session where he breaks down and hugs another man going through hard times, a rare selfless action that the old Don wouldn't have done.

So he may still make a fortune by designing a clever add to help sell flavored water---yeah, that's not Mother Teresa territory, but he's a guy who has fallen to earth and come down a better person overall.

Just my .02 -- any decent ending has to be one that people keep talking about, so Weiner has achieved that.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

The timeline is something else that makes me think that Don did not do the Coke commercial. The show was known for their obsession attention to accuracy of historic detail.

At the beginning of the episode, Draper is in Utah and tells Sally about seeing the new land speed record being set. So that makes it at least past October 23, 1970.

The whole Buy The World Coke campaign started as radio commercials in February of 1971.

I just don't see how how Draper could go from the retreat (which is at least several days after October 23, possibly into November) and go back to McCann Erickson (a company portrayed as being very vindictive) and win back enough trust to be placed on a national campaign for a big company like Coke in by February 1971.

Also, even though Draper created campaigns for real companies and real products, the show never actually used an ad from real life. I don't see why they would suddenly change now and use a real ad.

Even after watching the episode three times, I still stand by my take that the closing song was just another example of the show's pattern using an era appropriate song to reflect Draper's place in the world at the time. Don ends up apparently happy on a commune, and despite it's winding road, advertising led him there. That commercial was era accurate and reflects the corporate world finally embracing the counter culture like Don finally has.

All in all, Pete Campbell is still my favorite character. He was always crystal clear with who he was, even as he evolved over time.

Don was McCann's white whale. He had carte blanche there. I have zero doubt he could have walked in a month later and it would have been like he never left. I've been re-watching Season 3 (when McCann buys PPL to acquire Draper and Sterling Cooper) and Don mentions he's turned down McCann several times ('it's a sausage factory').

And while the show has always closed with a 'theme appropriate' song from the era, they've never shown a commercial. Obviously you can take away from it what you want, but the general consensus is Don's time at the retreat inspired him to create the ad for Coke.

 

[manatree]

And while the show has always closed with a 'theme appropriate' song from the era, they've never shown a commercial. Obviously you can take away from it what you want, but the general consensus is Don's time at the retreat inspired him to create the ad for Coke.

.....and the show has never used a read ad as an example of Draper's work. That's a huge one for me.

.....and one would think that this forum would understand that the general consensus isn't always right.

 

[Judge Smails]

Don was McCann's white whale. He had carte blanche there. I have zero doubt he could have walked in a month later and it would have been like he never left. I've been re-watching Season 3 (when McCann buys PPL to acquire Draper and Sterling Cooper) and Don mentions he's turned down McCann several times ('it's a sausage factory').

And while the show has always closed with a 'theme appropriate' song from the era, they've never shown a commercial. Obviously you can take away from it what you want, but the general consensus is Don's time at the retreat inspired him to create the ad for Coke.

Peggy also says in their phone call that McCann would take Don back.

 

[BlueBand]

Well, Esquire seems to agree with me that it was Peggy... with the caveat that Don gave the idea to Peggy, while he remained in CA in "retirement."

However, as I pointed out earlier in my secondary theory, and which manatree also pointed out, the series never used real commercials. They never took someone else's work and attributed it to a fictional character. Also, the timeline isn't quick enough for a turnaround on a major campaign like that. So, I'm now leaning more towards the Coke commercial being the equivalent of End Credits music, but with visuals. Maybe to show how Don is now in parallel to this new ad campaign, even if he didn't create it. Or maybe to show a break from 60's advertising to this new way of selling. Or, maybe it's to show how even if Don isn't working on Coke, he he's happy in his new life.

I think Weiner wanted people to discuss it, and what it meant, but he might have made it too heavy handed towards Don creating the commercial, since that what 99% of the media I've read just assumes.

 

[Columbus_Lion]

Peggy also says in their phone call that McCann would take Don back.

Peggy also said "You can work on the Coke ad"

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Well, Esquire seems to agree with me that it was Peggy... with the caveat that Don gave the idea to Peggy, while he remained in CA in "retirement."

However, as I pointed out earlier in my secondary theory, and which manatree also pointed out, the series never used real commercials. They never took someone else's work and attributed it to a fictional character. Also, the timeline isn't quick enough for a turnaround on a major campaign like that. So, I'm now leaning more towards the Coke commercial being the equivalent of End Credits music, but with visuals. Maybe to show how Don is now in parallel to this new ad campaign, even if he didn't create it. Or maybe to show a break from 60's advertising to this new way of selling. Or, maybe it's to show how even if Don isn't working on Coke, he he's happy in his new life.

I think Weiner wanted people to discuss it, and what it meant, but he might have made it too heavy handed towards Don creating the commercial, since that what 99% of the media I've read just assumes.

Peggy had to beg and threaten to go to her boss to get put on some little account; I don't see her getting anywhere near Coke unless it's through Don. Even if she had *that* idea, Don would likely have to sell it for them to want to use it. There are just too many signs to ignore here that it was Don - the location of the commercial, the ties to Don's retreat, the smirk, the tons of Coke references leading up to the commercial (hell, even Joan and her boyfriend did 'coke'), and that it was the brand the McCann executive whispered specifically to Don at SC&P's failed pitch to take their agency out west....(pic below):

And how's this for foreshadowing from Season 1?

 

[manatree]

There are just too many signs to ignore here that it was Don - the location of the commercial, the ties to Don's retreat,(pic below):

The location of the commercial was in Italy. Don's retreat was in California.

Also, in last week's episode, when Pete & Duck meet in the elevator, their initial conversation goes along the lines of Pete asking Duck if he is here to find Don's replacement and Duck answers that it is not the first time he's done that. Duck was the one who found Lou to replace Don the first time.

 

[ApexLion]

Don was a liar, a cheat, and a philanderer. He was unreliable, let down everybody close to him, and ended up alone and friendless.

If you think this is somebody to emulate, you need your bearings checked.

That's not to say he wasn't a very interesting character and I'd rather watch a show about an interesting character than one who is good but boring.

Who said anything about emulating? Parse statements, distort others' viewpoints and basically smell yourself, much?

The best adman, astronaut, astronomer.... to zookeeper can be a f'ed up individual. The point is that Don (based on the real person) could create what people wanted and he could get people to buy what they did not need.

That's it.

 

[royboy]

The location of the commercial was in Italy. Don's retreat was in California.

Also, in last week's episode, when Pete & Duck meet in the elevator, their initial conversation goes along the lines of Pete asking Duck if he is here to find Don's replacement and Duck answers that it is not the first time he's done that. Duck was the one who found Lou to replace Don the first time.

Keep in mind this is a work of fiction. Unless you hear from Matthew Weiner or a Mad Men insider, there is no clear answer as to the intended connection of any character in the series to the iconic Coke ad of 1971. But you have said nothing that rules out Don as the creator of the ad, and there is plenty more that points to him.

manatree, believe as you like; frankly, I don't think you've convinced anyone else.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Well they wrapped up several character's futures, or at least show you what direction they were heading but in the end - what happens to Don. Is the Coke jingle his way back to the NY ad business? What ere we lead to believe will happen to him?

Very disjoointed and unfulfilling.

 

[manatree]

Don was McCann's white whale. He had carte blanche there. I have zero doubt he could have walked in a month later and it would have been like he never left. I've been re-watching Season 3 (when McCann buys PPL to acquire Draper and Sterling Cooper) and Don mentions he's turned down McCann several times ('it's a sausage factory').

I didn't catch that you referenced this quote from the Jim Hobart, the head of McCann Erickson. If anything, that's a strong clue that Don does NOT go back to McCann. People seem to forget that in Moby Dick, Captain Ahab never gets his white whale.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Jon Hamm's take from the New York Times:

My take is that, the next day, he wakes up in this beautiful place, and has this serene moment of understanding, and realizes who he is. And who he is, is an advertising man. And so, this thing comes to him. There’s a way to see it in a completely cynical way, and say, “Wow, that’s awful.” But I think that for Don, it represents some kind of understanding and comfort in this incredibly unquiet, uncomfortable life that he has led.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I didn't catch that you referenced this quote from the Jim Hobart, the head of McCann Erickson. If anything, that's a strong clue that Don does NOT go back to McCann. People seem to forget that in Moby Dick, Captain Ahab never gets his white whale.

Hobart got his though. And when he vented to Roger about Don's absence, Roger says - 'he does that.' You think Hobart is going to give up the guy he's been chasing for a decade because he took a trip? And remember - Don has a contract. So, if you believe Don went back to advertising, he most certainly did so back at McCann.

 

[CDW3333]

This guy correctly predicted the ending.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/12/8589783/mad-men-finale-predictions

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

This guy correctly predicted the ending.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/12/8589783/mad-men-finale-predictions

Some other bloggers mentioned this as a possible ending too. The more it sits with me, the better I like it.

 

[royboy]

Some other bloggers mentioned this as a possible ending too. The more it sits with me, the better I like it.

Agree.
Re-watched it yesterday, and as usual, Weiner has dropped some hints along the way, esp. in the phone call between Don and Peggy. And no doubting that small grin on Don's face as he chants and a little bell rings.

For the rest of the denouement, I liked the outcomes for Joan, Roger and Marie, Sally being a grown-up, and Pete and Trudy. Thought Peggy and Stan was a little forced, but okay.

Just a great, great series overall, and the ending was worthy.

 

[manatree]

Hobart got his though. And when he vented to Roger about Don's absence, Roger says - 'he does that.' You think Hobart is going to give up the guy he's been chasing for a decade because he took a trip? And remember - Don has a contract. So, if you believe Don went back to advertising, he most certainly did so back at McCann.

Considering that in the previous episode, Duck Philips admitted/told Pete that he was in the McCann office to find Don's replacement, yes, I think Hobart did give up. Why? It was purely financial.

They have all of SC&P's clients and they will no longer owe what is left on Don's contract, including his shares. When you look at the rest, McCann made out like bandits. They got rid of Joan for less than half price. Leer Jet buys out Pete's contract & shares, and now they don't have to pay Don. It turns out to be a very cheap acquisition. McCann's all about the bottom line.

Like in Moby Dick, Ahab never gets his white whale & neither does Hobart.

.

 

[manatree]

Agree.
Re-watched it yesterday, and as usual, Weiner has dropped some hints along the way, esp. in the phone call between Don and Peggy. And no doubting that small grin on Don's face as he chants and a little bell rings.
.

The bell at the end was part of the yoga ceremony not the figurative bell going off in Don's head.

 

[dfm135psu]

Considering that in the previous episode, Duck Philips admitted/told Pete that he was in the McCann office to find Don's replacement, yes, I think Hobart did give up. Why? It was purely financial.



.

Duck was there for Pete, he wasn't there for anything related to Don. His entire conversation with Pete at McCann was a ruse to get Pete to interview with LearJet.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

The bell at the end was part of the yoga ceremony not the figurative bell going off in Don's head.

Sounded an awful like the 'ding' on a typewriter (which Don used to write his ads...).

Duck was there for Pete, he wasn't there for anything related to Don. His entire conversation with Pete at McCann was a ruse to get Pete to interview with LearJet.

Yeah, I'm thinking manatree is being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Duck was half-lit and there's no way McCann was replacing Don a couple weeks removed from his leaving. Duck's whole purpose was to dupe Pete into applying for the Lear Jet job (and taking the credit, and finders fee, for doing so).

Considering that in the previous episode, Duck Philips admitted/told Pete that he was in the McCann office to find Don's replacement, yes, I think Hobart did give up. Why? It was purely financial.

They have all of SC&P's clients and they will no longer owe what is left on Don's contract, including his shares. When you look at the rest, McCann made out like bandits. They got rid of Joan for less than half price. Leer Jet buys out Pete's contract & shares, and now they don't have to pay Don. It turns out to be a very cheap acquisition. McCann's all about the bottom line.

Like in Moby Dick, Ahab never gets his white whale & neither does Hobart.

.

Wrong. McCann's nearly singular purpose for acquiring SC&P was Don. That is it; everything else was/is gravy. They don't care about their bush league accounts (why would they when they have Coke?) or having to pay Joan, Pete, Roger, Peggy, Stan, and/or Harry.

Don had an epiphany in California. He's come to terms with who he is and what he's about. He heads back to New York, his cushy office at McCann, and pitches Coke the ad of a lifetime. Done.

 

[LionJim]

Agree.
Re-watched it yesterday, and as usual, Weiner has dropped some hints along the way, esp. in the phone call between Don and Peggy. And no doubting that small grin on Don's face as he chants and a little bell rings.

For the rest of the denouement, I liked the outcomes for Joan, Roger and Marie, Sally being a grown-up, and Pete and Trudy. Thought Peggy and Stan was a little forced, but okay.

Just a great, great series overall, and the ending was worthy.

I had missed the little bell. Awesome to know, great post, Roy.

 

[manatree]

Sounded an awful like the 'ding' on a typewriter (which Don used to write his ads...).

Yeah, I'm thinking manatree is being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

Don had an epiphany in California. He's come to terms with who he is and what he's about. He heads back to New York, his cushy office at McCann, and pitches Coke the ad of a lifetime. Done.

I believe what I believe based on my interpretation of what the show presented, not because I want to dissent. I'm not going to change my interpretation just because it isn't popular.

As someone stated previously, unless Weiner comes out with his version, no one is right.

 

[LionJim]

There's a reason the popular interpretation is the popular one. I was convinced before learning that the desk clerk shows up in the Coke ad. (Thanks to whoever posted that side-by-side picture.) That's something you can't explain away. This is absolutely not an attempt to copy the ambiguous ending of The Sopranos. Weiner put the desk clerk in the Coke ad for a reason; how much more obvious can you get? Weiner wants us to know that he believes in Don. I have no opinion on whether or not we would have seen an end to dirty Don, but I like to think that he takes Peggy's, Joan's, and Pete's metamorphosis to heart and finds the ability to grow. (This is the only time I've ever liked Pete.)

 

[LionJim]

The bell at the end was part of the yoga ceremony not the figurative bell going off in Don's head.

LOL, then why did Weiner put it there? It totally means nothing?

 

[wbcincy]

well manatree, time to give up the fight.

Weiner says Don created it, and it was a moment of purity, so that takes out the cynical angle as well. Loved the ending and glad he intended it the way I saw it

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/mad-men-creator-finale-coke-004247003.html

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

well manatree, time to give up the fight.

Weiner says Don created it, and it was a moment of purity, so that takes out the cynical angle as well. Loved the ending and glad he intended it the way I saw it

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/mad-men-creator-finale-coke-004247003.html

Just about to post this. Love that Weiner cleared everything up and allowed us a peek at his thought process.

 

[wbcincy]

Just about to post this. Love that Weiner cleared everything up and allowed us a peek at his thought process.

Yeah I was shocked that he did, but glad. I think maybe he was more willing to talk about it given the positive reaction to the episode than, say, David Chase was willing to following the negative backlash.

I can't help but wonder how much the reaction to the Sopranos affected how Weiner wrapped up Mad Men, having been a part of the "disaster" that was the Sopranos finale (I actually liked). I think maybe Weiner put more bows on things than he would have if not for that previous experience.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Yeah I was shocked that he did, but glad. I think maybe he was more willing to talk about it given the positive reaction to the episode than, say, David Chase was willing to following the negative backlash.

I can't help but wonder how much the reaction to the Sopranos affected how Weiner wrapped up Mad Men, having been a part of the "disaster" that was the Sopranos finale (I actually liked). I think maybe Weiner put more bows on things than he would have if not for that previous experience.

Yeah, I think there's something to that. He almost went out of his way to make sure we saw nice tidy endings for all the main characters, and sort of hits you in the gut with Don's ending (which took me a second to realize what happened and when I did I smiled).

I also liked The Soprano's finale but it wasn't as good or satisfying as this one. I also prefer Mad Men to Breaking Bad, and believe this ending and series will hold up better over time.