MLB's "Franchise Four"

[LafayetteBear]

For those of you who saw yesterday's All-Star game, MLB unveiled its "Franchise Four," which is a list of the greatest four players in each of the thirty MLB franchises, as well as the four greatest living players. (This allowed for Pete Rose to take the field at his hometown ballpark, and receive the ovation he, IMO, justly deserved from his hometown fans.)

But, c'mon. Can you really make a case for Johnny Bench as one of the Top 4 living players? Mays and Aaron are absolute no brainers. They are WAY above every other living player. I think Koufax is a defensible pick, even though his career was relatively short, because he was simply brilliant. (I'll admit to bias on that one, being a Dodger fan.) But Bench? He is arguably the best catcher ever, taking into account both his hitting and his defense. But I think his inclusion was a lamentable sop to the fact that the All-Star game was played in Cincinnatti.

As for the Buccos, they picked Mazeroski to join Clemente, Wagner and Stargell as the four greatest Pirates of all time. Maz was a great fielder and he had a HUGE homer in the 1960 ('61?) World Series to beat the Yanks, but I gotta honk the BS horn on him being one of the four greatest Pirates ever. Was wondering what the Buccos fans here think of that. I also doubt that Richie Ashburn is one of the four greatest Phillies of all time. (No problem with Schmidt, Carlton and Robin Roberts.)

Finally, they picked Buster Posey as one of the four greatest Giants of all time. Hey, I think Posey is a great player, but the notion that he is greater than Cepeda, Marichal or even Will Clark, particularly at this early stage of his career, is simply laughable. It reminds me of the McCutchen-Clemente thread.

 

[wex18]

I had this same discussion last night on another board. I thought Bob Gibson should have replaced Bench.

 

[PSUSignore]

I have been reading that many Mets fans think Gooden or Strawberry should have been selected over David Wright as well.

 

[michnittlion]

But Bench? He is arguably the best catcher ever, taking into account both his hitting and his defense. But I think his inclusion was a lamentable sop to the fact that the All-Star game was played in Cincinnatti.

Supposedly it was a vote by the fans.

The correct player to be alongside Aaron, Mays (those 2 were no-brainers) and Koufax (you have to have a pitcher, I'd argue Greg Maddux or Bob Gibson are better choices but Koufax is fine) would have been Barry Bonds.

But he's just as controversial to have out there as Pete Rose.

Who knows if MLB manipulated things, but by putting Bench out there, it's not that controversial and it is "throwing a bone" to the locals.

 

[michnittlion]

I had this same discussion last night on another board. I thought Bob Gibson should have replaced Bench.

I read another article on this --- Bob Gibson wasn't even "eligible." Fans could only vote for 4 among 8 players:

Pitchers: Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Pedro Martinez
Hitters: Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Rickey Henderson, Johnny Bench.

Nothing against Bench, but he's the 5th choice of the 5 hitters, at least to me. Rickey is very under-rated from a historical viewpoint, I think.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Did you notice that Noan Ryan was one of the four for three different teams. Thats pretty amazing. He shoulda been there instead of Bench

 

[jmisdamina]

Ricky Henderson, but no Michael Jack Schmidt?

 

[CF LION]

Pie Traynor or Ralph Kiner could replace Maz on the Buccos four.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Pedro Martinez?! LOL, he could not hold Bob Gibson's jock...

 

[fairgambit]

I have no desire to debate this, and I'm sure many will disagree, but for the Pirates I'd keep Mazeroski and replace Stargell with Paul Waner.

 

[Sandinista!]

No Dale Berra for the buccos? that is a tragedy

 

[Stargellfan]

Pedro Martinez?! LOL, he could not hold Bob Gibson's jock...

Based on longevity, I would also put Gibson ahead of Martinez, but it is a lot closer than you imply. Pedro Martinez is probably the right handed version of Sandy Koufax. His period of dominance was relatively short but at his peak he was as dominant as any righthander that ever lived. When you factor in that his dominance occurred at the height of the steroid era, that makes his dominance all the more impressive.

 

[jj410]

For those of you who saw yesterday's All-Star game, MLB unveiled its "Franchise Four," which is a list of the greatest four players in each of the thirty MLB franchises, as well as the four greatest living players. (This allowed for Pete Rose to take the field at his hometown ballpark, and receive the ovation he, IMO, justly deserved from his hometown fans.)

But, c'mon. Can you really make a case for Johnny Bench as one of the Top 4 living players? Mays and Aaron are absolute no brainers. They are WAY above every other living player. I think Koufax is a defensible pick, even though his career was relatively short, because he was simply brilliant. (I'll admit to bias on that one, being a Dodger fan.) But Bench? He is arguably the best catcher ever, taking into account both his hitting and his defense. But I think his inclusion was a lamentable sop to the fact that the All-Star game was played in Cincinnatti.

As for the Buccos, they picked Mazeroski to join Clemente, Wagner and Stargell as the four greatest Pirates of all time. Maz was a great fielder and he had a HUGE homer in the 1960 ('61?) World Series to beat the Yanks, but I gotta honk the BS horn on him being one of the four greatest Pirates ever. Was wondering what the Buccos fans here think of that. I also doubt that Richie Ashburn is one of the four greatest Phillies of all time. (No problem with Schmidt, Carlton and Robin Roberts.)

Finally, they picked Buster Posey as one of the four greatest Giants of all time. Hey, I think Posey is a great player, but the notion that he is greater than Cepeda, Marichal or even Will Clark, particularly at this early stage of his career, is simply laughable. It reminds me of the McCutchen-Clemente thread.

I find the celebration of the sleazy Pete Rose disgusting. He has lied about everything, yet he is a hometown hero with commercial endorsements. Morally, he is no better than Bonds and the other PED users and is an even bigger self-promoting liar than some of them.
Ashburn pick as one of the top 4 Phillies is defensible, there haven't been that many great Phillies.
Mazeroski as top 4 Pirate is silly if you mean all-time rather than living. Pie Traynor, Ralph Kiner or the Waners, all dead, were better.
Choosing Bench over players like Schmidt, Ripken and others is simply a sop to the home town. Just among living catchers, it is a tossup between him and Berra.
I agree, you could argue that there are at least a half dozen living pitchers with better lifetime records than Koufax, but at his peak there was never anyone better.

 

[Sandinista!]

Maz over Stragell? Stargell has more hits, HR's, RBI's and a better average.
Of course, Maz has 8 golden gloves and THE hit.

thats a tough one

I have no desire to debate this, and I'm sure many will disagree, but for the Pirates I'd keep Mazeroski and replace Stargell with Paul Waner.

 

[Stargellfan]

I have no desire to debate this, and I'm sure many will disagree, but for the Pirates I'd keep Mazeroski and replace Stargell with Paul Waner.

It goes without saying that I am among those who would strongly disagree.

 

[fairgambit]

Maz over Stragell? Stargell has more hits, HR's, RBI's and a better average.
Of course, Maz has 8 golden gloves and THE hit.
thats a tough one

To me, defense gives Maz the edge over Willie, but really, in my post, since Maz and Stargell were both chosen and I added Waner, the argument should be Waner vs Stargell. Waner had 3,152 hits to Willie's 2,232. Waner had a lifetime average of .340. 340! Willie's was .282. Waner is 2nd to Wagner in Bucco history in runs scored. Paul Waner is underappreciated in Bucco history.

 

[fairgambit]

Maz over Stragell? Stargell has more hits, HR's, RBI's and a better average.
Of course, Maz has 8 golden gloves and THE hit.
thats a tough one

Per my last post, my argument in not really Maz vs Stargell but Waner vs Stargell.

 

[jj410]

I have no desire to debate this, and I'm sure many will disagree, but for the Pirates I'd keep Mazeroski and replace Stargell with Paul Waner.

Well, at least you are consistent in your baseball evaluations - consistently wrong and based on "gut" reactions.
Just because you saw Maz hit that WS HR in 1960 doesn't make him better.
Maz's OPS was .667 over 17 years. Stargell's was .889 over 20 years and Waner's .878 over 21 years.
Maz's oRAR was 199. Stargell's was 617. Wamer's was 709.
It's no surprise you don't want to debate it, it's a blow-out.

 

[fairgambit]

It goes without saying that I am among those who would strongly disagree.

Yes, and it's really an unfair comparison. Clemente and Wagner are locks. I'm adding Paul Waner to the mix. Stargell was a great home run hitter. Waner was a great hitter. Maz was a great fielder. I loved Willie, but was a big Maz fan growing up (until I switched to Roberto) so I'm biased, and I never saw Waner play so I'm really basing this on what I've read about Waner. Let's just pick 5 and not leave anyone out.

 

[fairgambit]

It goes without saying that I am among those who would strongly disagree.

And well you should. Willie was a great player and a world class guy.

 

[Mister Magoo]

Supposedly it was a vote by the fans.

The correct player to be alongside Aaron, Mays (those 2 were no-brainers) and Koufax (you have to have a pitcher, I'd argue Greg Maddux or Bob Gibson are better choices but Koufax is fine) would have been Barry Bonds.

But he's just as controversial to have out there as Pete Rose.

Who knows if MLB manipulated things, but by putting Bench out there, it's not that controversial and it is "throwing a bone" to the locals.

If you're ok with Bonds. Clemens should get consideration as the pitcher.

 

[Victor E. Bell]

I didn't see any of these lists, as I tuned in late to the game. As for Philadelphia, there are many people alive who saw Richie Ashburn play and many more who loved him in the booth. Alas for Chuck Klein, who played almost his entire career with the Phillies, few people alive today remember seeing him play. Check the numbers and compare them to Rich Ashburn and Klein has to get the nod by a pretty wide margin. Carlton, Schmidt, Roberts, Klein would be my Phillies 4 and I loved Rich Ashburn, don't get me wrong but as a broadcaster. He retired from playing a few years before I was born.

If Chuck Klein was a Yankee he'd be talked about today with a lot more respect in these discussions but he played on horrible teams his whole career and was beset with a lot of injuries, although many other greats were as well.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I didn't see any of these lists, as I tuned in late to the game. As for Philadelphia, there are many people alive who saw Richie Ashburn play and many more who loved him in the booth. Alas for Chuck Klein, who played almost his entire career with the Phillies, few people alive today remember seeing him play. Check the numbers and compare them to Rich Ashburn and Klein has to get the nod by a pretty wide margin. Carlton, Schmidt, Roberts, Klein would be my Phillies 4 and I loved Rich Ashburn, don't get me wrong but as a broadcaster. He retired from playing a few years before I was born.

If Chuck Klein was a Yankee he'd be talked about today with a lot more respect in these discussions but he played on horrible teams his whole career and was beset with a lot of injuries, although many other greats were as well.

Victor you are a true seamhead. Chuck Klein is all but forgotten but his peak years, lost to the sands of time, are some of the BEST years in all the history of baseball.

In 1930, maybe before a single poster on the board was BORN, Klein had 250 hits, 59 doubles, 40 home runs, 170 RBI's and scored 158 runs. 445 total bases and a batting avg of a cool .386. That might indeed be the best single season in history. But there is not one fan in 1000 who ever heard of him.

Schmidt and Roberts are locks. I can't kick about the great Richie Ashburn. Carlton had great years in Phila but he spent a lot of time with the Cards and others as well, given a choice I'd have to give Klein the nod.

As for the irates, Clemente and Traynor are locks. Maz played on two WS champs (as did Stargell). Wanrer was a tremendous player. The guy who gets overlooked (partly because of all his baggage) is the Cobra, Dave Parker.

I love Johnny Bench. Great player. There is absolutely NO WAY he can be one of the 4 greatest living players. For starters, Yogi makes him look like a wimp. Yogi is not doing so well now, Johnny was a Red so you have the propaganda factor. And by the way, Al Kaline is still alive and he's better than Johnny as well.

As for Sandy, I had no problem with him UNTIL someone mentioned Bob Gibson. I forgot all about him.

Anything that sparks baseball talk is always good, but you can't out too much stock in stuff like this.

 

[LionJim]

I didn't see any of these lists, as I tuned in late to the game. As for Philadelphia, there are many people alive who saw Richie Ashburn play and many more who loved him in the booth. Alas for Chuck Klein, who played almost his entire career with the Phillies, few people alive today remember seeing him play. Check the numbers and compare them to Rich Ashburn and Klein has to get the nod by a pretty wide margin. Carlton, Schmidt, Roberts, Klein would be my Phillies 4 and I loved Rich Ashburn, don't get me wrong but as a broadcaster. He retired from playing a few years before I was born.

If Chuck Klein was a Yankee he'd be talked about today with a lot more respect in these discussions but he played on horrible teams his whole career and was beset with a lot of injuries, although many other greats were as well.

Nice pickup, but you got to add the caveat that Klein played in the Baker Bowl. Twenty-nine of his 38 home runs in 1932 were in the Baker Bowl; in comparison, during their historic years both Ruth (1927) and Maris (1961) had fewer home runs in Yankee Stadium with its short right-field porch than they had in away games. The Baker Bowl was ridiculously asymmetric, here's a cool link.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on...e-the-ridiculous-dimensions-of-the-baker-bowl

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Nice pickup, but you got to add the caveat that Klein played in the Baker Bowl. Twenty-nine of his 38 home runs in 1932 were in the Baker Bowl; in comparison, during their historic years both Ruth (1927) and Maris (1961) had fewer home runs in Yankee Stadium with its short right-field porch than they had in away games. The Baker Bowl was ridiculously asymmetric, here's a cool link.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on...e-the-ridiculous-dimensions-of-the-baker-bowl

Ever hear of a pitcher named Boom-Boom Beck? Now you know how he got his nickname.

 

[LionJim]

Ever hear of a pitcher named Boom-Boom Beck? Now you know how he got his nickname.

Hugh "Losing Pitcher" Mulcahy is also fondly remembered. Eight years Mulcahy played for the Phillies, averaged 17 losses per. He lost 76 games in the four years before he went into the army for WW2; I'll bet anything he volunteered.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Hugh "Losing Pitcher" Mulcahy is also fondly remembered. Nine years Mulcahy played for the Phillies, averaged 17 losses per.

That's hard to do. He actually had pretty good talent for them to keep running him out there. The Phillies in the '30s were absolutely dreadful. Too lazy to look it up, but I think they had a winning pct under .300 one of those years.

 

[Victor E. Bell]

LJ- The BB was a short porch but Klein hit .320 life vs. Ashburn .308. Fox pointed out some of his other numbers from the 1930's, not all power numbers. Klein hit his share of HR when he was a Cub for a short time. My point was basically not to forget about Klein when you're talking Phillies greats. Ashburn stole more bases but Klein led the league in steals a few times when no HR hitters were stealing bases. As another poster pointed out there are not all that many Phillies in the HOF who played long enough in Philly to be considered in the 4 greatest for the franchise. I am comparing 2 guys I never saw play, so there's that too. Just looking at the stats.

 

[LionJim]

LJ- The BB was a short porch but Klein hit .320 life vs. Ashburn .308. Fox pointed out some of his other numbers from the 1930's, not all power numbers. Klein hit his share of HR when he was a Cub for a short time. My point was basically not to forget about Klein when you're talking Phillies greats. Ashburn stole more bases but Klein led the league in steals a few times when no HR hitters were stealing bases. As another poster pointed out there are not all that many Phillies in the HOF who played long enough in Philly to be considered in the 4 greatest for the franchise. I am comparing 2 guys I never saw play, so there's that too. Just looking at the stats.

Oh, sure, as always, I knew where you were coming from.

 

[LionJim]

That's hard to do. He actually had pretty good talent for them to keep running him out there. The Phillies in the '30s were absolutely dreadful. Too lazy to look it up, but I think they had a winning pct under .300 one of those years.

Actually they had a winning percentage of under .300 three out of the four years from '39-'42. Huh.

 

[Victor E. Bell]

That's hard to do. He actually had pretty good talent for them to keep running him out there. The Phillies in the '30s were absolutely dreadful. Too lazy to look it up, but I think they had a winning pct under .300 one of those years.

Thought of this looking at the pics from LJ's link...the old bit about the RF wall with the slogan "All the Phillies use Lifebuoy" and somebody snuck in and scribbled "and they still stink!"

 

[john4psu]

Pirates: Wagner, Clemente, Waner and Traynor. I don't have a problem with either #8 or #9.

League: Say Hey and Hammerin Hank without question. I might pick Seaver over Koufax. Nolan Ryan would of been worthy as well. I had no problem with Bench though. Greatest catcher ever sorry Yogi and it was in Cincinnati.

 

[fairgambit]

Pirates: Wagner, Clemente, Waner and Traynor. I don't have a problem with either #8 or #9.

League: Say Hey and Hammerin Hank without question. I might pick Seaver over Koufax. Nolan Ryan would of been worthy as well. I had no problem with Bench though. Greatest catcher ever sorry Yogi and it was in Cincinnati.

Traynor is another good choice and is often forgotten

 

[kgilbert78]

Hugh "Losing Pitcher" Mulcahy is also fondly remembered. Eight years Mulcahy played for the Phillies, averaged 17 losses per. He lost 76 games in the four years before he went into the army for WW2; I'll bet anything he volunteered.

And the guy Father Mulcahy was named for in the M*A*S*H books.....

 

[Victor E. Bell]

No way! I did not know that.

 

[LafayetteBear]

League: Say Hey and Hammerin Hank without question. I might pick Seaver over Koufax. Nolan Ryan would of been worthy as well. I had no problem with Bench though. Greatest catcher ever sorry Yogi and it was in Cincinnati.

John: I actually enjoy the debating over who was the better baseball player. In that respect, I would not necessarily dispute Bench as the GOAT at catcher, but I don't see it as a slam dunk. I think I-Rod has an argument here. Both were stellar defensive players, which is why I would put them well ahead of Piazza despite Piazza's stellar hitting numbers, and slightly ahead of Berra, who was pretty good but not great defensively, and won the most WS rings of any player ever (plus 3 MVP awards).

Here are some of their key offensive numbers:

Bench (17 years): .267 BA, 389 HR, 1,376 RBI, 1,091 Runs, .817 OPS
I-Rod ( 21 years): .296 BA, 311 HR, 1,332 RBI, 1,354 Runs, .798 OPS
Berra (19 years): .285 BA, 358 HR, 1,430 RBI, 1,175 Runs, .830 OPS
Piazza (16 years): .308 BA, 427 HR, 1,335 RBI, 1,048 Runs, .922 OPS

 

[PSUriseANDfire]

Pedro Martinez?! LOL, he could not hold Bob Gibson's jock...

Yeah ok, usually I am on board with what you say baseball-wise but Pedro dominated in an era where hitters dominated the game. He also was just as feared as Gibson early on in his career even though he rarely ever hit anyone. Then as he aged he completely transformed himself into a finesse pitcher that still kicked ass. Couldn't hold Gibson's jock? Gibson might have been a little less intimidating in the steroid era. Pedro was little and still had the presence that kept everyone on their toes. The numbers are somewhat similar. ERA basically identical. Both strikeout machines though Pedro even more. Compare them both vs the rest of the league. Someone doesn't hold the other guys jock but you have it backwards.

For the Phils the first three are easy. Then it gets tricky. Lots of guys could be brought in. Didn't even see Dick Allen mentioned.

 

[pandaczar12]

How did they handle expansion teams and teams that have moved? Did expansion teams have a smaller pool to pull from? Were the expos represented?

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

For those of you who saw yesterday's All-Star game, MLB unveiled its "Franchise Four," which is a list of the greatest four players in each of the thirty MLB franchises, as well as the four greatest living players. (This allowed for Pete Rose to take the field at his hometown ballpark, and receive the ovation he, IMO, justly deserved from his hometown fans.)

But, c'mon. Can you really make a case for Johnny Bench as one of the Top 4 living players? Mays and Aaron are absolute no brainers. They are WAY above every other living player. I think Koufax is a defensible pick, even though his career was relatively short, because he was simply brilliant. (I'll admit to bias on that one, being a Dodger fan.) But Bench? He is arguably the best catcher ever, taking into account both his hitting and his defense. But I think his inclusion was a lamentable sop to the fact that the All-Star game was played in Cincinnatti.

As for the Buccos, they picked Mazeroski to join Clemente, Wagner and Stargell as the four greatest Pirates of all time. Maz was a great fielder and he had a HUGE homer in the 1960 ('61?) World Series to beat the Yanks, but I gotta honk the BS horn on him being one of the four greatest Pirates ever. Was wondering what the Buccos fans here think of that. I also doubt that Richie Ashburn is one of the four greatest Phillies of all time. (No problem with Schmidt, Carlton and Robin Roberts.)

Finally, they picked Buster Posey as one of the four greatest Giants of all time. Hey, I think Posey is a great player, but the notion that he is greater than Cepeda, Marichal or even Will Clark, particularly at this early stage of his career, is simply laughable. It reminds me of the McCutchen-Clemente thread.

I'd put Bobby Bonds in the Giants mix.

 

[john4psu]

Interesting stuff Lafayette and thank you for the stats. I think I-Rod gets overlooked somewhat as he wasn't as feared offensively at the plate as was Bench particularly early in Bench's career. Also, the fact that Bench revolutionized the position defensively, catching one-handed and was without peer in his era for throwing out base stealers.