MLB's "Franchise Four"

[Obliviax]

Well, at least you are consistent in your baseball evaluations - consistently wrong and based on "gut" reactions.
Just because you saw Maz hit that WS HR in 1960 doesn't make him better.
Maz's OPS was .667 over 17 years. Stargell's was .889 over 20 years and Waner's .878 over 21 years.
Maz's oRAR was 199. Stargell's was 617. Wamer's was 709.
It's no surprise you don't want to debate it, it's a blow-out.

Maz was a hare before my time...but the stats you quote are all offensive stats. Maz was the quintessential defensive Second Basemen of the era. He was an all star seven times and a gold glove winner in 8 seasons. He had a .983 career fielding percentage. He still holds the NL's record for turning double plays in a single season. Amazing, really. Probably the best defensive second basemen of all time.

Offensively, he wasn't great. His best season he batted .275 with 19HRs. However, he came up big in big games. The 1960 WS clincher is, of course, most popular (a lesser HR in the WS is known as the "shot heard around the world" because it happened in the media center whereas 1960 in Pitt, against they yankees, not so much). He also hit a homer that won game 1 of that series (another Pirate V).

 

[GulfCoastLion]

I read another article on this --- Bob Gibson wasn't even "eligible." Fans could only vote for 4 among 8 players:

Pitchers: Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Pedro Martinez
Hitters: Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Rickey Henderson, Johnny Bench.

Nothing against Bench, but he's the 5th choice of the 5 hitters, at least to me. Rickey is very under-rated from a historical viewpoint, I think.

Bonds, Aaron and Mays make sense on hitters, but Henderson and Bench ? Great players, one incredible lead off/base steal guy of all time and the other perhaps the best catcher ever. But hitters ? How about Ken Griffey JR, Frank Robinson ? Ernie Banks should even be considered, who also played shortstop where few all time great hitters have resided. Hard to argue against Koufax, Seaver, Martinez, although as others have stated, Koufax career was significantly short. Bob Gibson, or Roger Clemens (issue being PED's ?) and Greg Maddux are obvious choices. EDIT....My bad, forgot Mr. Cub had passed away not long ago...

 

[kgilbert78]

How did they handle expansion teams and teams that have moved? Did expansion teams have a smaller pool to pull from? Were the expos represented?

*All* of the Nationals players were Expos.

And I would put Schmidt above Bench....

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

I'd put Bobby Bonds in the Giants mix.

And, I don't want to forget Willie McCovey, who was often a Pirate-killer.

 

[Stargellfan]

Maz was a hare before my time...but the stats you quote are all offensive stats. Maz was the quintessential defensive Second Basemen of the era. He was an all star seven times and a gold glove winner in 8 seasons. He had a .983 career fielding percentage. He still holds the NL's record for turning double plays in a single season. Amazing, really. Probably the best defensive second basemen of all time.

Offensively, he wasn't great. His best season he batted .275 with 19HRs. However, he came up big in big games. The 1960 WS clincher is, of course, most popular (a lesser HR in the WS is known as the "shot heard around the world" because it happened in the media center whereas 1960 in Pitt, against they yankees, not so much). He also hit a homer that one game 1 of that series (another Pirate V).

Clearly I am biased, but in my mind Willie Stargell is no worse than 3rd when ranking Pirate players. Maz is one of the greatest defensive players in the history of baseball, at any position, and deserved his spot in the HOF. Waner, Traynor, and Kiner were also great players but IMHO, Pop's was better than all of them. Maz hit the game winning homer in a game 7, but so did Willie. It just didn't end the game. Stargell went 4-5 in game 7 of the 1979 World Series. He hit 3 home runs and batted .400 for the entire series. I will acknowledge the possibility of exaggeration,but it was Roberto Clemete who estimated that Forbes Field cost Willie 200 home runs. His first full year in Three Rivers he hit 48 home runs, and that was while playing the second half of that year with a bad knee which severely limited him. He had the longest home run in more than half of the National League stadiums. Defensively he was average,but he had a cannon for a throwing arm. It was Steve Blass who said it was actually stronger than Clemente's. He was just not as consistently accurate. If you need proof of this watch the MLB film of the 1971 World Series. He makes an unbelievable throw to nab Davey Johnson at the plate.

 

[kgilbert78]

Clearly I am biased, but in my mind Willie Stargell is no worse than 3rd when ranking Pirate players. Maz is one of the greatest defensive players in the history of baseball, at any position, and deserved his spot in the HOF. Waner, Traynor, and Kiner were also great players but IMHO, Pop's was better than all of them. Maz hit the game winning homer in a game 7, but so did Willie. It just didn't end the game. Stargell went 4-5 in game 7 of the 1979 World Series. He hit 3 home runs and batted .400 for the entire series. I will acknowledge the possibility of exaggeration,but it was Roberto Clemete who estimated that Forbes Field cost Willie 200 home runs. His first full year in Three Rivers he hit 48 home runs, and that was while playing the second half of that year with a bad knee which severely limited him. He had the longest home run in more than half of the National League stadiums. Defensively he was average,but he had a cannon for a throwing arm. It was Steve Blass who said it was actually stronger than Clemente's. He was just not as consistently accurate. If you need proof of this watch the MLB film of the 1971 World Series. He makes an unbelievable throw to nab Davey Johnson at the plate.

As much as Philly hates to honor Pittsburgh, there was a seat with a star on it where Stargell hit one in the Vet. Respect.

 

[Victor E. Bell]

As much as Philly hates to honor Pittsburgh, there was a seat with a star on it where Stargell hit one in the Vet. Respect.

How does Philly hate to honor Pittsburgh? What does that mean?

 

[kgilbert78]

How does Philly hate to honor Pittsburgh? What does that mean?

Rivalry.