Nickal's high step out of Dean's high-crotch shot

[Dogwelder]

It's hard to ask this question without a YouTube video to point to, but were you guys blown away, as I was, by Nickal's ability to elude/defend Dean's high-crotch shot not by sprawling, but by staying upright and high-stepping his leg out of Dean's impending grasp?

The timing and reflexes and decision-making there (and luck) were jaw dropping to me. I mean, Dean's shot was very solid and deep and well-timed, and was not a low-single shot--it was a regular-height shot.

I don't watch a lot of wrestling, but I don't remember people high-stepping out of regular-height shots very much at all. The only instances that come to mind are when my son's old coach used to clown the kids by leaving his leg vulnerable and then high-stepping over those 6-yos. In contrast, Nickal did it not to a 6-yo but to the defending national champ.

 

[PSUisawesome]

It's back up in you tube will study and get back to you. My guess is that you've just seen the uncanny athleticism that Bo's opponents just can't scout or train for.

 

[Dogwelder]

It's back up in you tube will study and get back to you. My guess is that you've just seen the uncanny athleticism that Bo's opponents just can't scout or train for.

Cool! Thanks, PSUisAwesome!

Somehow your comment has made my memory great again, and I now remember that the shot starts when there are 53 seconds remaining in the 2nd period. I now remember that if someone were to play the mental clip of the match in their head, a clip that is about 9:40+ long, then the shot might start at the 5:55 mark.

I just mentally replayed the video in my mind, and, yup, it is high magic. Goes by so quick that one might not appreciate it enough.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Just watched it. Bo "limp legs out" then half sprawls- half whizer- to a shoulder shrug out. The limp leg and shoulder shrug are ridiculous. He's managing Gabe f-ing Dean with shrugs and limp legs!!?? I am so impressed by this kid just love him! Can't wait to see him keep growing.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

It's hard to ask this question without a YouTube video to point to, but were you guys blown away, as I was, by Nickal's ability to elude/defend Dean's high-crotch shot not by sprawling, but by staying upright and high-stepping his leg out of Dean's impending grasp?

The timing and reflexes and decision-making there (and luck) were jaw dropping to me. I mean, Dean's shot was very solid and deep and well-timed, and was not a low-single shot--it was a regular-height shot.

I don't watch a lot of wrestling, but I don't remember people high-stepping out of regular-height shots very much at all. The only instances that come to mind are when my son's old coach used to clown the kids by leaving his leg vulnerable and then high-stepping over those 6-yos. In contrast, Nickal did it not to a 6-yo but to the defending national champ.

VinJo had a couple impressive evasions from what I thought were sure TDs by I-Mar as well...

Often times you will see the attacker convert from the deep Hi-C to the freight-train Double (or just even drive through the hips like a tackle) in Freestyle to avoid the escape you are referring to... However, in Freestyle, the defensive wrestler is really not allowed to intentionally go backwards and run-away either (i.e., "Fleeing a hold") - in any event, you will often see them convert mid-move to just drive the opponent backward because they will generally get points out of it as the opponent is really not permitted to intentionally flee to break the move.

 

[El-Jefe]

Cenzo did the same thing to Martinez in the 3rd -- kicked his foot backward during a shot. Martinez didn't get his hands on Cenzo's leg (though in fairness it was hard to tell if Martinez took a committed shot or a decoy to get the underhook).

That worked out OK.

 

[Dogwelder]

Cenzo did the same thing to Martinez in the 3rd -- kicked his foot backward during a shot. Martinez didn't get his hands on Cenzo's leg (though in fairness it was hard to tell if Martinez took a committed shot or a decoy to get the underhook).

That worked out OK.

I can't check Cenzo's match (Thanks, Willie! ), but based on your word "backward", I think Nickal's move is very different.

Kicking a leg *backward* is still a normal folk-style reflex for a rudimentary wrestler like my younger self. But I have zero reflex to "limp leg" my leg *forward* by going knee-up, ankles sideways (hacky-sack/Michael Jackson style), which is what Nickal did, and which is what impresses me so much. It may be that I'm impressed only due to lack of exposure to high-end wrestling, but I really don't recall seeing other people do it in folk style against a regular (non-low) and good point-blank shot.

 

[Dogwelder]

... But I have zero reflex to "limp leg" my leg *forward* by going knee-up, ankles sideways (hacky-sack/Michael Jackson style), which is what Nickal did, ...

Holy cow. I just freeze framed my way through those few seconds. Nickal did *TWO* limp legs. The sequence is knee up, ankle-outward limp leg, then ankle-inward limp leg, then flying sprawl. Here is the ankle outward part:

 

[Dogwelder]

... The sequence is knee up, ankle-outward limp leg, then ankle-inward limp leg, then flying sprawl ...

 

[Dogwelder]

Yes. I'm obsessive. Here is one extreme (ankle outward) of his Michael Jackson hacky-sack two-step: (Note: Dean is not lifting Nickal's ankle; Nickal is lifting Nickal's ankle.)

 

[Dogwelder]

Here is the second extreme (ankle inward) of his Michael Jackson hacky-sack two-step: (Note: Dean is mostly not lifting Nickal's ankle; mostly Nickal is lifting Nickal's ankle.)

 

[Gebmo]

Going to be a boring couple of years having to watch Bo, Cenzo, Nolf, Zain, Wreck, Nick and crew. Just think, we could have Heil to watch! Oh well, one of the crosses we have to bear. We will just have to make do and find a way to be happy with what we have.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Going to be a boring couple of years having to watch Bo, Cenzo, Nolf, Zain, Wreck, Nick and crew. Just think, we could have Heil to watch! Oh well, one of the crosses we have to bear. We will just have to make do and find a way to be happy with what we have.

Heil, I pin myself to avoid takedowns......that I didn't even avoid but for a complicit ref....

Where's the barf bucket?

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Again, he dropped down went low off the initial Hi-C rather than going up and hi off the initial Hi-C converting to a "Freight-train / Blast Double" at the hips as you see many Freestylers do off the deep initial Hi-C. If he had converted hi rather then low, I think he probably continues to drive through preventing the subsequent sprawl.

That match showed me something I suspected - Dean's ceiling as a Folk wrestler may be significantly higher than his Free ceiling as he is fundamentally a great wrestler, especially position-wise in converting from offense to defense....and never being out of position, but he just doesn't have enough "funk" and dynamism to his offense imho against the world elite.

 

[Dungeon Yankee]

Going to be a boring couple of years having to watch Bo, Cenzo, Nolf, Zain, Wreck, Nick and crew. Just think, we could have Heil to watch! Oh well, one of the crosses we have to bear. We will just have to make do and find a way to be happy with what we have.

unfortunately!!!

 

[Used2BEerie]

Switching from the Hi-C to Double leg is called "barzegar" finish.

 

[crazylegs2]

I would imagine Dean finishes that shot 99 out of 100 against most opponents. That series of action is just ridiculous! Thanks for sharing.

 

[royboy]

I would imagine Dean finishes that shot 99 out of 100 against most opponents. That series of action is just ridiculous! Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, remarkable. Not too often you see a 2-time defending champ get knocked off in the NCAA finals.

Well, twice in the 2017 tournament.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Yeah, remarkable. Not too often you see a 2-time defending champ get knocked off in the NCAA finals.

Well, twice in the 2017 tournament.

I would be surprised if it never happened before, but both being knocked off by someone from the same school has got to be a first.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Switching from the Hi-C to Double leg is called "barzegar" finish.

Yep.

​

 

[Dogwelder]

Again, he dropped down went low off the initial Hi-C rather than going up and hi off the initial Hi-C converting to a "Freight-train / Blast Double" at the hips as you see many Freestylers do off the deep initial Hi-C. If he had converted hi rather then low, I think he probably continues to drive through preventing the subsequent sprawl.

...

It's hard to be sure, but the video can be interpreted as that Dean did try to do a blast double with his head trying to go high into Nick's sternum or higher, but Nickal's limp-leg-twice funk succeeded incredibly quickly to deny Dean any hold on Nickal's legs whatsoever. Without any hold on any of his legs, Nickal was able to sprawl like a devil. Even though the sprawl started a tad late, it finished a tad early because there was no hold on the leg during the sprawl, and so Nickal got the belly-down positioning to keep Dean's head lower than Nickal's sternum. Dean, meanwhile, felt the blast double attempt not working, and smoothly tried to grab just one leg on the other side (Nickal's left side), head-inside-single-style, but Nickal just body-whizzer'd Dean away in shrug-like fashion.

Dean is one smooth guy in changing left-to-right or right-to-left on his leg attacks. His first takedown, if I remember correctly, was a head-inside single on his right that he instantly finished as a double circling toward his left--a thing of beauty. In Dean's failed hi-c that we're talking about, Nickal prevented a similar thing of beauty with his own maneuver of even greater beauty.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I would imagine Dean finishes that shot 99 out of 100 against most opponents. That series of action is just ridiculous! Thanks for sharing.

Disagree, not "worldclass" opponents - there's a reason most elite Freestylers go hi (i.e., barzegar finish) rather than low (low single) off that shot. You are far more vulnerable to "funk" when you go low......you force the wrestler to surrender the TD and turn toward their stomach when you go hi....

 

[Dogwelder]

Disagree, not "worldclass" opponents - there's a reason most elite Freestylers go hi (i.e., barzegar finish) rather than low (low single) off that shot. You are far more vulnerable to "funk" when you go low......you force the wrestler to surrender the TD and turn toward their stomach when you go hi....

I'm not sure that Dean *tried* to go low single. I think Nickal's bringing his own right ankle high in his first limp leg made Dean lose Nickal's right knee and made Dean grab whatever was nearest, which turned out to be that right ankle (edit: or calf), which caused Nickal to do a second limp leg. Whatever Dean was trying to get to, (edit) either Nickal's right knee for the hi-c, or (maybe) Nickal's right leg/ankle for a head-inside single, or (maybe) Nickal's two legs for the blast double, or, later, Nickal's left leg for a head-inside single on the other side--whatever Dean wanted--Dean did not get.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I would imagine Dean finishes that shot 99 out of 100 against most opponents. That series of action is just ridiculous! Thanks for sharing.

Disagree, not "worldclass" opponents - there's a reason most elite Freestylers go hi (i.e., barzegar finish) rather than low (low single) off that shot. You are far more vulnerable to "funk" when you go low......you force the wrestler to surrender the TD and turn toward their stomach when you go hi....

Sammy Brooks learned the hard way why you don't drop down to head-inside single against a "funk" from neutral Freestyle guy like Bo in the Iowa Dual-Meet this year.... Burying your head at the ankle and going to the low-single in neutral is asking for big trouble against a guy like Bo.

Having said that, the best head-outside or head-inside low-single guy I've ever witnessed is the Watermellon Crusher himself, Z-pain. He puts so much leverage on the opponents shin with his shoulder, it almost always takes them to their @ss (with or without a crotch-lock - if they don't get the crotch-lock before going down, they usually resort to the body/waist-lock). Once their on their butt, Zain just inexorably creeps up on them like an amoeba encircling its prey.

 

[PSUisawesome]

every once in a while you get to really see how good the best actually are. This clip is one of those moments. Mark Hall has talked about how good Bo is and I could never figure out why unlike so many other wrestlers Mark could never find a way to beat Bo. This footage provides a glimpse of what it is like for world class guys to try and score on Bo. The dude is awesome!

 

[PSUisawesome]

P.S. Maybe this is why he gets cocky. He runs wrings around people for so long he just starts to take too many risks then MyMar shows up and he gets back to business.

 

[royboy]

P.S. Maybe this is why he gets cocky. He runs wrings around people for so long he just starts to take too many risks then MyMar shows up and he gets back to business.

 

[Dogwelder]

... Dean, meanwhile, felt the blast double attempt not working, and smoothly tried to grab just one leg on the other side (Nickal's left side), head-inside-single-style, but Nickal just body-whizzer'd Dean away in shrug-like fashion ...

I've looked again, and it seems that after Dean lost Bo's right leg, he lunged for *both* of Bo's legs, which is consistent with an attempt at a double finish. Dean's left arm fails to get Bo's right leg, due to the Superman sprawl, and so Dean ends up with extended right hand on Bo's left leg, and, feeling that, Dean tried to pivot into a head-inside single on Bo's left leg, but Bo said, "nope" and body-whizzer'ed/shrugged Dean away.

 

[Dogwelder]

I've looked again, and it seems that after Dean lost Bo's right leg, he lunged for *both* of Bo's legs, which is consistent with an attempt at a double finish. Dean's left arm fails to get Bo's right leg, due to the Superman sprawl, and so Dean ends up with extended hand on Bo's left leg, and feeling that, Dean tried to pivot into a head-inside single on Bo's left leg, but Bo said, "nope" and body-whizzer'ed/shrugged Dean away.

Here is a screen grab of Dean reaching for *both* of Bo's legs, but they are not there; especially Bo's right leg has eluded Dean completely :

 

[Used2BEerie]

IMO, Dean was out of position on his initial HC attempt and this allowed Bo to do his defense that much more effectively. Dean's head should have been on the outside but instead was inside and this stopped his penetration on the initial shot.

 

[Dogwelder]

I'm not sure that Dean *tried* to go low single...

The below photo may be another reason why it seemed that Dean did not finish high.

Here, Bo has just finished his first limp leg.

At this point, Franklin, you can justifiably say that Dean is trying to finish into a head-inside single--or even to a low-single, since Dean's right hand is lower than Bo's knee, and since Dean's head is rather low.

However, I think Dean's right hand is low only because Dean never got control of Bo's knee, due to Bo's first limp leg move, and so Dean is trying (and failing) to grab whatever he can, which is Bo's right calf with Dean's right hand.

Also, however, look at Bo's right hand. I think Dean's head is rather low for a blast double because Bo is pushing Dean's head down, and using Dean's support to power Bo's upcoming amazing Superman sprawl.

Again, the screen grab from my previous post shows Dean trying to grab *both* of Bo's legs, and that's why I think Dean *was* trying to finish with a blast double, but Bo stopped Dean cold by denying Bo's legs to Dean and, per this post's photo, by pushing Dean's head down.

Recap: In the span of a couple of seconds, Bo did a limp leg, pushed Dean's head down, did a second limp leg, superman sprawled, did a body-whizzer/shrug. And, Dean did a high-c, (edit: possibly tried to move to a head-inside single), tried to blast double, and tried to swing over to a head-inside single on the other side. These guys chain wrestle at ultra-high-speed!

 

[Dogwelder]

One other reason it might look like Dean tried to covert his high-c to a head-inside single is that Dean's left hand tried to grab Bo's right leg, while Dean's right hand (sort of) already had Bo's right leg, which would have left Dean with both his hands on only Bo's right leg. But that is the correct temporary position anyhow for switching from high-c to a double. You have to keep the opponent's right leg, so your right hand cannot release his right leg until your left hand takes over his right leg. In Dean's case, I think he was trying (and failing) to do this leg hand off, and his head was being pushed down, and that's why it looks like Dean was trying to do a single even though, I think, he was trying to do a double.

Bottom line: single or double, it would look about the same, due to Bo's actions, except for that one screen grab showing Dean trying to lunge and grab *both* of Bo's legs.

 

[Dogwelder]

IMO, Dean was out of position on his initial HC attempt and this allowed Bo to do his defense that much more effectively. Dean's head should have been on the outside but instead was inside and this stopped his penetration on the initial shot.

I've been thinking about that, too. I wonder why Dean's head stayed so inside. I conjecture that Dean was eager to get a head start on a head-in-the-chest blast double finish, or maybe, as Franklin might think, Dean was eager to get a head start on a single-leg finish.

 

[Used2BEerie]

I've been thinking about that, too. I wonder why Dean's head stayed so inside. I conjecture that Dean was eager to get a head start on a head-in-the-chest blast double finish, or maybe, as Franklin might think, Dean was eager to get a head start on a single-leg finish.

I think he rushed to the Barzegar, but lacked the penetration on the HC to get there.

 

[Dogwelder]

BTW, @PSUisawesome, thank you for the "limp leg" terminology. I did not know what to call it.

You know what? This is not even close to the first time that a PSU wrestler has done something and I did not know what to call it. Amazing wrestlers!

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

IMO, Dean was out of position on his initial HC attempt and this allowed Bo to do his defense that much more effectively. Dean's head should have been on the outside but instead was inside and this stopped his penetration on the initial shot.

Don't disagree with that, he did look to be a little "shallow" - generally, if you can, you want to get your head arm-pit deep on the outside with inside leg kneeling between opponents legs and outside leg "posted" for leverage on the driving "barzegar finish".

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I've been thinking about that, too. I wonder why Dean's head stayed so inside. I conjecture that Dean was eager to get a head start on a head-in-the-chest blast double finish, or maybe, as Franklin might think, Dean was eager to get a head start on a single-leg finish.

I do think it was the latter - he seems to drop down quickly on the leg after initially hitting the Hi-C.....essentially starts dropping down almost as soon as he gets there, rather than putting head to outside and driving "up and through" like a football tackle at the hips.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

One other reason it might look like Dean tried to covert his high-c to a head-inside single is that Dean's left hand tried to grab Bo's right leg, while Dean's right hand (sort of) already had Bo's right leg, which would have left Dean with both his hands on only Bo's right leg. But that is the correct temporary position anyhow for switching from high-c to a double. You have to keep the opponent's right leg, so your right hand cannot release his right leg until your left hand takes over his right leg. In Dean's case, I think he was trying (and failing) to do this leg hand off, and his head was being pushed down, and that's why it looks like Dean was trying to do a single even though, I think, he was trying to do a double.

Bottom line: single or double, it would look about the same, due to Bo's actions, except for that one screen grab showing Dean trying to lunge and grab *both* of Bo's legs.

No matter what, the entire sequence shows Bo's better instincts for "funk" from neutral - Dean going low on the right leg and then going low on the left leg at the end of the sequence are not going to be great offensive moves against a guy like Bo. Didn't Dean get the 1st TD off a clean shot? Bo seems to have the more dynamic offense-to-defense and defense-to-offense scoring ability in neutral which generally translates well to Freestyle especially in terms of being able to score points, while Dean is a bit of a poor-man's Dake imho - classic technician but a bit outclassed, and not real creative, if it comes down to a scramble and "funk". Dake is so "technically sound" that he can make it stand-up and translate to W's even against elite-level international guys, but I'm not sure that is going to work for Dean.

 

[PSUisawesome]

No matter what, the entire sequence shows Bo's better instincts for "funk" from neutral - Dean going low on the right leg and then going low on the left leg at the end of the sequence are not going to be great offensive moves against a guy like Bo. Didn't Dean get the 1st TD off a clean shot? Bo seems to have the more dynamic offense-to-defense and defense-to-offense scoring ability in neutral which generally translates well to Freestyle especially in terms of being able to score points, while Dean is a bit of a poor-man's Dake imho - classic technician but a bit outclassed, and not real creative, if it comes down to a scramble and "funk". Dake is so "technically sound" that he can make it stand-up and translate to W's even against elite-level international guys, but I'm not sure that is going to work for Dean.

This is an excellent explanation of why Dean couldn't drop the hammer in the third period. At a time when Zain or Nolf would have been opening things way up Dean was still in first period mode. I was at a loss as to why.

 

[crazylegs2]

The first takedown by Dean was text book good. I think Bo was super sharp the rest of the match and he definitely did not want Dean to get another lock on his leg (not that Bo isnt good from that position) as Dean is hard to beat once he gets a lock on the leg.