NLRB roles Dartmouth players are ‘employees’

[heckmans]

That’s why most of these nonprofit sports are history. The universities won’t be able to pay all of these athletes (employees) and stay afloat. This ruling makes no sense. If these are club sports will they be considered employees and would the athletes be untitled to pay?? Will they be able to afford road games as club members? The only sports that can survive is the ones making money (football and basketball).

can you imagine the expense for PAC12 schools sending their track teams east. There is a reason why, historically, conferences were geographically based.

IDK what this looks like in the end, because universities are addicted to the $$, but at this point, there is no reason for any top tier athletics to be associated with higher education. The US is the only nation in the world with this setup. Time to end it.

 

[Obliviax]

Excellent article on this from who else? McCann. Basically, the NCAA is gong to lose. It is just a matter of "when". Here, McCann maps out an argument why universities could benefit by getting ahead of it and declaring their athletes "employees" sooner rather than later. I didn't know this much litigation was in place, including USC's football team.

COLLEGES DECLARING ATHLETES ARE EMPLOYEES MIGHT MAKE SENSE​

...
There are three current controversies. Dartmouth men’s basketball players recently convinced an NLRB regional director they are employees within the meaning of the National Labor Relations Act. Dartmouth will appeal to the agency’s board and a U.S. Court of Appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court could later weigh in. In Los Angeles, an NLRB administrative law judge is reviewing whether USC football and men’s and women’s basketball players are employees. Courts could later review that. Then there is Johnson v. NCAA. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit is determining the standard to judge whether college athletes are employees within the meaning of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a federal law that requires employers to pay overtime pay and minimum wage—including for work-study students employed by colleges.

On one hand, the NCAA and its members have time on their side. Each of these controversies could face multiple rounds of judicial review. Finality might not emerge for several years. A school could do nothing on the employment front (outside of paying lawyers and lobbyists to fight employment) for the foreseeable future and be okay.

On the other hand, the early returns for the defendants are nothing short of frightening. Whether it’s a Republican-appointed federal judge or a Democratic-appointed NLRB official, the same message is being repeated: Because colleges control the lives of athletes like employees, they are employees.

Just as worrisome for the NCAA and colleges are blunt rejections of longstanding defenses. Colleges arguing they shouldn’t have to pay athletes because the athletes are amateurs—and they’re amateurs because colleges adopt rules saying they can’t pay them—has been panned as circular and specious by the likes of conservative U.S. Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh and liberal NLRB general counsel Jennifer Abruzzo.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Excellent article on this from who else? McCann. Basically, the NCAA is gong to lose. It is just a matter of "when". Here, McCann maps out an argument why universities could benefit by getting ahead of it and declaring their athletes "employees" sooner rather than later. I didn't know this much litigation was in place, including USC's football team.

COLLEGES DECLARING ATHLETES ARE EMPLOYEES MIGHT MAKE SENSE​

...
There are three current controversies. Dartmouth men’s basketball players recently convinced an NLRB regional director they are employees within the meaning of the National Labor Relations Act. Dartmouth will appeal to the agency’s board and a U.S. Court of Appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court could later weigh in. In Los Angeles, an NLRB administrative law judge is reviewing whether USC football and men’s and women’s basketball players are employees. Courts could later review that. Then there is Johnson v. NCAA. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit is determining the standard to judge whether college athletes are employees within the meaning of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a federal law that requires employers to pay overtime pay and minimum wage—including for work-study students employed by colleges.

On one hand, the NCAA and its members have time on their side. Each of these controversies could face multiple rounds of judicial review. Finality might not emerge for several years. A school could do nothing on the employment front (outside of paying lawyers and lobbyists to fight employment) for the foreseeable future and be okay.

On the other hand, the early returns for the defendants are nothing short of frightening. Whether it’s a Republican-appointed federal judge or a Democratic-appointed NLRB official, the same message is being repeated: Because colleges control the lives of athletes like employees, they are employees.

Just as worrisome for the NCAA and colleges are blunt rejections of longstanding defenses. Colleges arguing they shouldn’t have to pay athletes because the athletes are amateurs—and they’re amateurs because colleges adopt rules saying they can’t pay them—has been panned as circular and specious by the likes of conservative U.S. Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh and liberal NLRB general counsel Jennifer Abruzzo.

The Rubicon has been crossed. End ALL intercollegiate sports. Concentrate on vibrant intramural sports like those at Penn State. I can live,a good life without football. Let the ABA pay the thousands of kids who will not be able to afford college.

 

[Obliviax]

The Rubicon has been crossed. End ALL intercollegiate sports. Concentrate on vibrant intramural sports like those at Penn State. I can live,a good life without football. Let the ABA pay the thousands of kids who will not be able to afford college.

there is a middle ground but we aren't there yet. The universities had all the power and abused it. Kids were benched and couldn't transfer, Kids were told to take crappy majors. Kids graduated that couldn't read or write. People made billions while kids had to deal with cripling injuries during their playing days and later in life. The pendulum swung and now kids are virtual free agents from the day they graduate high school until their eligibility is up.

What has to happen is some entity that represents the players has to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with the NCAA (or whoever takes over after the NCAA). This could take an infinite number of forms. For example, Football is different from the rest because only a few schools really make any money, it is driven by TV revenues and takes a LOT of kids to play. I can see football being a separate issue altogether and there being several CBAs for football. Perhaps one for power five, one for a second level and a third for small colleges. Basketball is still controlled by the NCAA, at least the tournament. Then you get into money losers which are funded by football and basketball. What do you do with rowing, golf and box lacrosse? And what happens to Title IX in an era where a) you can't fund woman's sports because football is no longer the cash cow and b) men who recognize as women can compete in women's only sports?

A lot to be sorted out. For me, the sooner the better and that is why I posted McCann's article. I am 100% certain every major university is mapping out when they jump ship to a new model. I am 100% certain that was the basis for the SEC/B1G meetings as these two conferences now DOMINATE college football.

 

[87 Penn St8]

Then take Dartmouth? Not a single kid joined the Dartmouth MBB team expecting to earn in a living with their athletic talents.

Exactly. Approximately 25% of Dartmouth "students" are also varsity athletes. As a campus of only 6000 kids having 1/4th as varsity athletes is telling. The school also claims that 75% of all pupils are involved with athletics in some capacity- so 50% are playing at the club level.

From their Admissions website: "Dartmouth is a very active school – there's no disputing that. With 25% or so of our students being varsity athletes, and over 75% being involved in athletic pursuits, it can seem like being at Dartmouth requires you to be an athlete."

My son attended and this is real. He was on the Club Swim team so he fit in the 75%. His freshman roommate was a recruited varsity soccer player whose dad was an investment banker on Wall Street and received $0 in Scholarship or Aid. The young man's whole athletic career was all about using it as a competitive advantage to get into an Ivy League school.

There is even a term for the 25%ers: NARPs. Aka Non Athletic Regular Person. Students openly joke about how "jocks" are "Pretty People" but not smart enough to be on campus without their sport. Many kids quit playing once they get there. One of my sons buddies was an Offensive Lineman from St. Louis. Went through Summer Camp and quit. Since he was non athletic scholly it didn't matter financially- his aid package was based on need and academic merit. The Lacrosse team was infamous for having players leave the program- so much so that the coach got fired and the new coach apparently leans heavily on "Honor" to get his blessing for recruit recommendation in Admissions.

NARPs are unicorns on campus- known as the real geniuses who were accepted ONLY on academic merit. Nobody on the Dartmouth campus cares about sports- except those who are playing. Attendance is low except for the Homecoming Football game and some Hockey games (Princeton is a big rivalry game where fans throw tennis balls when Darty scores). They are indeed an odd duck to be in the forefront of this fight.

I'm finding myself caring less and less about all of this stuff. It all is just water swirling down the drain towards the septic system.....

Amateur? A thing of the past.

 

[Obliviax]

Game even more over

 

[Obliviax]

This is sadly/ironically funny

 

[Op2]

Perhaps private universities have different rules, but if players at public universities start to be employees, some people are going to start saying "These are public universities, not pro sports teams, this should not be allowed to happen at a public school." Granted it won't be a lot of people, but it will probably be some.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Does the Dartmouth administration decide to fill the basketball team with non-union scabs, and let the hoops players that went 6-21 find a new activity to fill their time?

 

[Marylovesthelions]

This idea is ignorance gone to seed.

 

[Obliviax]

Does the Dartmouth administration decide to fill the basketball team with non-union scabs, and let the hoops players that went 6-21 find a new activity to fill their time?

There are options for them to stop supporting the program as a sponsor and to support it as a "club". That has concerns about how the conference would recognize them (or not). So instead of the team being part of the school, the school simply donates money to the team which is run by some person or group that manages the team.

 

[Erial_Lion]

There are options for them to stop supporting the program as a sponsor and to support it as a "club". That has concerns about how the conference would recognize them (or not). So instead of the team being part of the school, the school simply donates money to the team which is run by some person or group that manages the team.

They'd lose a lot of $ if they became a "club"...but if they stay a varsity sport but say "next man up" and recruit a new batch of players while filling out the roster with the next ~10 best players on campus, they should be fine (fine as in, still getting their NCAA cut, still finishing in the basement of the Ivy, but going 0-14 instead of 2-12).

 

[Obliviax]

They'd lose a lot of $ if they became a "club"...but if they stay a varsity sport but say "next man up" and recruit a new batch of players while filling out the roster with the next ~10 best players on campus, they should be fine (fine as in, still getting their NCAA cut, still finishing in the basement of the Ivy, but going 0-14 instead of 2-12).

Agreed but they voted to become a union. There are steps to be taken but they will become a part of the Service Employees International Union Local 560. So if that comes to pass, they will be unionized employees and subject to all of the NLRB and employment laws. I believe the NCAA knows it is toast so is now going to congress to get some kind of legislation passed. In an election year, good luck with that.

Dartmouth men's basketball team votes to unionize, though steps remain before forming labor union

The Dartmouth basketball team have taken an unprecedented step toward forming the first labor union for college athletes.

apnews.com

 

[Erial_Lion]

Agreed but they voted to become a union. There are steps to be taken but they will become a part of the Service Employees International Union Local 560. So if that comes to pass, they will be unionized employees and subject to all of the NLRB and employment laws. I believe the NCAA knows it is toast so is now going to congress to get some kind of legislation passed. In an election year, good luck with that.

Dartmouth men's basketball team votes to unionize, though steps remain before forming labor union

The Dartmouth basketball team have taken an unprecedented step toward forming the first labor union for college athletes.

apnews.com

Maybe I don't understand the laws then...but can't they just move along and hire non-union employees? Isn't that why I'll often see union workers outside picketing while non-union employees are inside doing a job (or a business decides to hire non-union employees)? Or, can the Dartmouth players come up with any crazy conditions that they want, and the schools choices are to accept them, or not have a basketball team?

 

[Obliviax]

Maybe I don't understand the laws then...but can't they just move along and hire non-union employees? Isn't that why I'll often see union workers outside picketing while non-union employees are inside doing a job (or a business decides to hire non-union employees)? Or, can the Dartmouth players come up with any crazy conditions that they want, and the schools choices are to accept them, or not have a basketball team?

I don't know the nuance to the labor laws so I won't go there. But there would be considerable damage done to Dartmouth in terms of PR to hire scabs and try to "bust" the union. You also get into all kinds of Title IX and discrimination in hiring laws. One example is a kid on a student visa who plays. If he is an employee, he no longer has a student visa but has to get a green card. Of course, the union could exempt him/her from union membership. But then the school could put more foreign players on their team to skirt unionization.

We've got a long way to go and it will be iterative learning. And Iterive learning isn't always good. We are looking at a two steps forward, one step back situation for several years.

 

[Erial_Lion]

But there would be considerable damage done to Dartmouth in terms of PR to hire scabs and try to "bust" the union.

I disagree here...I think they'd have a whole lot of people behind them rooting them on as they try to preserve NCAA sports as we know it.

But we definitely agree that there is a long way to go here before any of it is settled.

 

[OaktonDave]

Exactly. Approximately 25% of Dartmouth "students" are also varsity athletes. As a campus of only 6000 kids having 1/4th as varsity athletes is telling. The school also claims that 75% of all pupils are involved with athletics in some capacity- so 50% are playing at the club level.

From their Admissions website: "Dartmouth is a very active school – there's no disputing that. With 25% or so of our students being varsity athletes, and over 75% being involved in athletic pursuits, it can seem like being at Dartmouth requires you to be an athlete."

My son attended and this is real. He was on the Club Swim team so he fit in the 75%. His freshman roommate was a recruited varsity soccer player whose dad was an investment banker on Wall Street and received $0 in Scholarship or Aid. The young man's whole athletic career was all about using it as a competitive advantage to get into an Ivy League school.

There is even a term for the 25%ers: NARPs. Aka Non Athletic Regular Person. Students openly joke about how "jocks" are "Pretty People" but not smart enough to be on campus without their sport. Many kids quit playing once they get there. One of my sons buddies was an Offensive Lineman from St. Louis. Went through Summer Camp and quit. Since he was non athletic scholly it didn't matter financially- his aid package was based on need and academic merit. The Lacrosse team was infamous for having players leave the program- so much so that the coach got fired and the new coach apparently leans heavily on "Honor" to get his blessing for recruit recommendation in Admissions.

NARPs are unicorns on campus- known as the real geniuses who were accepted ONLY on academic merit. Nobody on the Dartmouth campus cares about sports- except those who are playing. is low except for the Homecoming Football game and some Hockey games (Princeton is a big rivalry game where fans throw tennis balls when Darty scores). They are indeed an odd duck to be in the forefront of this fight.

I'm finding myself caring less and less about all of this stuff. It all is just water swirling down the drain towards the septic system.....

Amateur? A thing of the past.

Building on your comments, what's the purpose of basketball at Dartmouth? At this point, I suspect that it's a money losing operation that exists primarily because they've always had one and it would seem strange if it went away. It's not like kids are applying to Dartmouth because of it, and I strongly suspect the of donors whose contributions hinge on the existence of the program could meet in a small room. So, the basketball players unionize and go to the school with demands. Why wouldn't the school simply tell them that they gave it some thought and, failing to see any point for the program other than sentiment, have decided to shut it down?

It reminds me of the time the competitors on the women's pro bowling tour unionized and went on strike. The tour was losing money prior to the strike, so it folded. There were lawsuits, but none succeeded because the tour didn't try to re-form to avoid the union, and they couldn't find a court that would force the people who ran the tour to continue operating a failing business. It's been several years and I don't know if new tour ever formed.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Building on your comments, what's the purpose of basketball at Dartmouth? At this point, I suspect that it's a money losing operation that exists primarily because they've always had one and it would seem strange if it went away.

I'd be shocked if their basketball program is losing money (though tough to find any real info since they are private)...the NCAA share is a pretty big windfall.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

There are options for them to stop supporting the program as a sponsor and to support it as a "club". That has concerns about how the conference would recognize them (or not). So instead of the team being part of the school, the school simply donates money to the team which is run by some person or group that manages the team.

Better to drop intercollegiate sports. Now lawyers, scumbags, want to bring NIL to HS. Intramural sports have a lot of participants. Let them be the only sports on campus. Let the lawyers and players find another sponsor..
PS just because they did not appeal does not mean another school that appealed the ruling would lose. There seems to be no end to demands. If the NCAA accepts thus, even more expensive court decisions will make the ultimate closing of intercollegiate sports even more expensive.

 

[Big 0]

So when do PeeWee football players and high school athletes unionize? Dartmouth players are not even on an athletic scholarship, so I don’t see how they are being compensated by the school. Yes, they do receive coaching, have to practice and follow a game schedule, but this is not that far removed from a club team.

Dartmouth states that the students on the men’s basketball team are not in any way employed by the school and that classifying the students on the team as employees simply because they play basketball is as unprecedented as it is inaccurate.

The NLRB’s regional director, however, concluded that the players are employees because Dartmouth has the right to control the work performed by the Dartmouth men’s basketball team (so I’m guessing that means having to go to practice and show up for scheduled games). And also that the players perform work in exchange for compensation, but what is the compensation if they are not on an athletic scholarship?

 

[junior1]

yep. so many things to consider. for example, if you don' t give 'ships away and just pay the kids enough to pay their college costs, is title IX toast? I am thinking of the current requirement to give equal ships out to men and women.

good question. Most schools can't afford to pay for scholarships, and union wages at the same time...something would have to give. I can see a situation where the rich schools offer both and the determining factor is the wage rate. I can also see where a university could play hardball with their new employees giving them tasks outside of basketball in the same manner employers dole out "other duties as assigned".

One thing for sure even without the union, the NIL game has already changed college sports. I'm not necessarily sure it's for the better

 

[bdgan]

Excellent article on this from who else? McCann. Basically, the NCAA is gong to lose. It is just a matter of "when". Here, McCann maps out an argument why universities could benefit by getting ahead of it and declaring their athletes "employees" sooner rather than later. I didn't know this much litigation was in place, including USC's football team.

COLLEGES DECLARING ATHLETES ARE EMPLOYEES MIGHT MAKE SENSE​

...
There are three current controversies. Dartmouth men’s basketball players recently convinced an NLRB regional director they are employees within the meaning of the National Labor Relations Act. Dartmouth will appeal to the agency’s board and a U.S. Court of Appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court could later weigh in. In Los Angeles, an NLRB administrative law judge is reviewing whether USC football and men’s and women’s basketball players are employees. Courts could later review that. Then there is Johnson v. NCAA. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit is determining the standard to judge whether college athletes are employees within the meaning of the Fair Labor Standards Act, a federal law that requires employers to pay overtime pay and minimum wage—including for work-study students employed by colleges.

On one hand, the NCAA and its members have time on their side. Each of these controversies could face multiple rounds of judicial review. Finality might not emerge for several years. A school could do nothing on the employment front (outside of paying lawyers and lobbyists to fight employment) for the foreseeable future and be okay.

On the other hand, the early returns for the defendants are nothing short of frightening. Whether it’s a Republican-appointed federal judge or a Democratic-appointed NLRB official, the same message is being repeated: Because colleges control the lives of athletes like employees, they are employees.

Just as worrisome for the NCAA and colleges are blunt rejections of longstanding defenses. Colleges arguing they shouldn’t have to pay athletes because the athletes are amateurs—and they’re amateurs because colleges adopt rules saying they can’t pay them—has been panned as circular and specious by the likes of conservative U.S. Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh and liberal NLRB general counsel Jennifer Abruzzo.

Why do colleges control the lives of players like employees? What's different vs a place like IMG Academy? Aren't tuition paying students "controlled"?

 

[Kasparaitis]

Why do colleges control the lives of players like employees? What's different vs a place like IMG Academy? Aren't tuition paying students "controlled"?

What is the incentive to pay players? They have less than 100 fans (customers). It is obvious the end result will be closing this “business.”

 

[Obliviax]

Why do colleges control the lives of players like employees? What's different vs a place like IMG Academy? Aren't tuition paying students "controlled"?

All good questions. I don't know. on IMG these are high school kids so the rules may be different.

 

[Obliviax]

We officially have a union of college athletes

 

[LMTLION]

We officially have a union of college athletes

View embedded media

Good luck to them. Why would Dartmouth keep their bball team?

 

[Kasparaitis]

Good luck to them. Why would Dartmouth keep their bball team?

I look forward to the announcement in the near future that Dartmouth is shutting down their basketball program. I don’t understand the union mentality. It reminds me of the CAT plant in York. Caterpillar workers were the highest paid manufacturing workers in York County including employers like Harley-Davidson. They went on strike for more and CAT closed the plant and moved all the operations out of state. All the CAT employees went from highest paid to unemployed.

 

[LMTLION]

I look forward to the announcement in the near future that Dartmouth is shutting down their basketball program. I don’t understand the union mentality. It reminds me of the CAT plant in York. Caterpillar workers were the highest paid manufacturing workers in York County including employers like Harley-Davidson. They went on strike for more and CAT closed the plant and moved all the operations out of state. All the CAT employees went from highest paid to unemployed.

Unfortunately most people cannot see the forest from the trees. The reality for any manufacturing in the Northeast or Midwest is that those operations can go down south or oversees at a fraction of the operating costs. The reality with Dartmouth is that basketball means relatively little to the university and they will likely just drop it. And good luck to those union member players if they want to transfer - their options will be nonexistent. You have to be reasonable in life. I am in eastern PA and up in the Allentown area Mack Truck went on strike last year and eventually came to an agreement that worked for both sides and did not threaten the existence of the plant.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Unfortunately most people cannot see the forest from the trees. The reality for any manufacturing in the Northeast or Midwest is that those operations can go down south or oversees at a fraction of the operating costs. The reality with Dartmouth is that basketball means relatively little to the university and they will likely just drop it. And good luck to those union member players if they want to transfer - their options will be nonexistent. You have to be reasonable in life. I am in eastern PA and up in the Allentown area Mack Truck went on strike last year and eventually came to an agreement that worked for both sides and did not threaten the existence of the plant.

All elite schools are run by true believers in wokeism and far left ideology. I doubt they will drop sports. What do you thing public schools will do about NIL for HS athletes? Are unions far behind?

 

[Obliviax]

For people who like to follow the business of sports, another great article in Sportico by Michael McCann. The lawyer representing the Dartmouth players is interviewed and gives a great viewpoint from his perspective.

This Lawyer Is Taking on Dartmouth to Fight for College Athletes

Jake Krupski is a seasoned labor attorney who has represented police officers and firefighters. He's now representing Dartmouth basketball players.

www.sportico.com

 

[Kasparaitis]

For people who like to follow the business of sports, another great article in Sportico by Michael McCann. The lawyer representing the Dartmouth players is interviewed and gives a great viewpoint from his perspective.

This Lawyer Is Taking on Dartmouth to Fight for College Athletes

Jake Krupski is a seasoned labor attorney who has represented police officers and firefighters. He's now representing Dartmouth basketball players.

www.sportico.com

What a load of crap! One look at this guy and you can see that he was the last person picked in gym class, that is if his parents didn’t get him excused from the school’s gym requirement. He has zero knowledge of athletic competition. He’s talking about what young people demand and what they should be compensated for their employment as basketball players. Seriously, this is at jokebook Dartmouth? Kentucky, yeah maybe, but there is absolutely no commerce being performed on a basketball court at Dartmouth. If Dartmouth doesn’t immediately close down their basketball program they’re dumber than I thought.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

What a load of crap! One look at this guy and you can see that he was the last person picked in gym class, that is if his parents didn’t get him excused from the school’s gym requirement. He has zero knowledge of athletic competition. He’s talking about what young people demand and what they should be compensated for their employment as basketball players. Seriously, this is at at jokebook Dartmouth? Kentucky, yeah maybe, but there is absolutely no commerce being performed on a basketball court at Dartmouth. If Dartmouth doesn’t immediately close down their basketball program they’re dumber than I thought.

They are too woke to object.