off-topic - advice needed on utility pump

[djm_psu_alum]

When the wife and I bought our house last December, it did have a subtle statement in the disclosures that water would seep under the garage door into the garage during heavy rains. There is a gutter that runs the length of the garage door but it doesnt appear to drain anywhere. Of course, at the height of the drought, it was at the bottom of the list of things I was concerned with on the house.

Of course El Nino hit last winter and I discovered how bad it could get. The garage would floor with lengthy heavy rains -- 2-3 inches deep. The main problem is that behind our house, the land declines slightly towards the garage so all the rain follows gravity right to that spot.

I fought this off with sandbags and attempts to divert the water towards our small lawn next to our garage but water finds a way and it would find a way into our garage (though not as bad as the first few times). I would end up wet - vaccuing (sp?) the water out, walking the wet-vac up our drive way and dump into the street. I fully admit I should have been better prepared when the rain was coming but each time I thought I had built a good system of sandbags to divert the water. On top of that, our oldest dog had just been diagnosed with cancer so we were dealing with her (we don't have kids so they are our kids) so I was never fully focused on getting this resolved.

Once El Nino ended and summer rolled in, I got some estimates in getting this fixed once and for all but the contractors proposed some elaborate solutions with all costing quite a bit of money so I figured I'd wait it out since we'd go back to drought conditions here.

To make an already long story short, we have some rains recently and while most have not been heavy enough to cause problems (I removed all the sandbags in June), we are getting calls for heavy rains on Thursday. I should have done this to begin with but I'm looking at utility pump--specifically a Simer Utility Pump (see link for examples). My question(s) is that I'm slightly confused about the GPM (gallons per minute) or GPH (gallons per hour) efficiency. The water would need to be pumped from the garage door up the driveway to the street which is maybe about 100-125 feet) and there is a slightly incline from the garage to the street but the street is probably only about 2 feet at most. According to what I've been reading the GPM (or GPM) is mostly effected by the "head" or "lift" (the vertical distance from the bottom of the pump to the highest point of discharge) but says nothing about if the length of the hose effecting the rate of discharge.

Have any of you had to deal with this? Any advice you could offer?

 

[hereforthebeer]

Are we talking about a rural area? Small town? The burbs? I ask because it would seem as though the solution to your problem is manipulation of the land for improved drainage.

 

[olelion]

A French drain to intercept the water is the permanent solution. In the interim, try one of those pumps you can operate with an electric drill. I'm assuming the static head is low, so it should work

 

[JR4PSU]

The distance will be a factor as well. The friction of the pipe will add to the power requirement. While a short distance will not add much, a long distance could. All "simple" fluid mechanics.

 

[djm_psu_alum]

Are we talking about a rural area? Small town? The burbs? I ask because it would seem as though the solution to your problem is manipulation of the land for improved drainage.

Suburbs - Pasadena

 

[phlop87]

I had the same problem (shorter driveway then yours, but I can easily fit two cars side by side). My driveway has a slope from the street into the garage door. What I did (with the help of my brother-in-law who is very handy) was to put a french drain (not sure if that is the correct term) in by cutting a narrow trench about 3 feet from the garage door that ran the entire width of the driveway and about 8 feet into the grass on the side yard. I inserted a Ushaped PVC pipe along the width of the trench and packed the sides of the pipe with small smooth stones. My brother-in-law found and ordered on-line a grate that sits on top of the drain that is in the driveway. I haven't had any problems with water in the garage since we did this project.

 

[91Joe95]

Are we talking about a rural area? Small town? The burbs? I ask because it would seem as though the solution to your problem is manipulation of the land for improved drainage.

^^^ What he said. You need to get the water away from the house, that's the real problem. If you don't take care of that you're looking at a future rot/mold problem. If you want to install a little sump pump system in your garage you can. In fact, if you don't have one right now how do you plan on sucking the water up without running the pump dry, thereby damaging it? Getting back to the flow rate, i.e. GPM or GPH, that is separate than the pressure required to pump it up the hill. Your pump needs to be selected 1st based on the GPM or GPH that you want, and then 2nd on how high up it needs to be pumped up, i.e. the pressure.

Also, you can look at raising your garage floor an inch or two to make a lip, and then putting a sewer drain nearby (or drop the area underneath the door an inch or two). Really though, you need to get the water away from the house.

 

[CF LION]

I had the same problem (shorter driveway then yours, but I can easily fit two cars side by side). My driveway has a slope from the street into the garage door. What I did (with the help of my brother-in-law who is very handy) was to put a french drain (not sure if that is the correct term) in by cutting a narrow trench about 3 feet from the garage door that ran the entire width of the driveway and about 8 feet into the grass on the side yard. I inserted a Ushaped PVC pipe along the width of the trench and packed the sides of the pipe with small smooth stones. My brother-in-law found and ordered on-line a grate that sits on top of the drain that is in the driveway. I haven't had any problems with water in the garage since we did this project.

This is the best solution. Being in the building industry, I can tell you that anytime we have a sloping drive into building (like a loading dock ramp that slopes down to a lower level), we always put in trench drains and connect them to the storm system. In your case, direct the water off to the side(s) to a point where gravity will be your friend.

 

[djm_psu_alum]

^^^ What he said. You need to get the water away from the house, that's the real problem. If you don't take care of that you're looking at a future rot/mold problem. If you want to install a little sump pump system in your garage you can. In fact, if you don't have one right now how do you plan on sucking the water up without running the pump dry, thereby damaging it? Getting back to the flow rate, i.e. GPM or GPH, that is separate than the pressure required to pump it up the hill. Your pump needs to be selected 1st based on the GPM or GPH that you want, and then 2nd on how high up it needs to be pumped up, i.e. the pressure.

Also, you can look at raising your garage floor an inch or two to make a lip, and then putting a sewer drain nearby (or drop the area underneath the door an inch or two). Really though, you need to get the water away from the house.

I should clarify the garage is detached and we have had no problems whatsoever with water in the house. It is only the garage. I apologize I'm not clear I understand your question. I was looking at a Simer Utility Pump which sits on the ground and can pump water up to 1/8 inch.

 

[Peetz Pool Boy]

I should clarify the garage is detached and we have had no problems whatsoever with water in the house. It is only the garage. I apologize I'm not clear I understand your question. I was looking at a Simer Utility Pump which sits on the ground and can pump water up to 1/8 inch.

You're on the right track...this is a good, inexpensive solution to your periodic problem. Those trash/utility pumps don't work "fast" but they do work well and are very forgiving even if the water has some sediment in it.

Place the pump at the low spot of your garage floor and run the hose up the driveway or to the closest place that you know the water will drain away from your garage naturally. Two (2) feet of hydraulic head isn't very much so the pump will run just fine. Hose length isn't as important of a consideration relative to vertical head because you don't have much friction loss inside of a garden hose (flow is low velocity, laminar)

The biggest consideration is having enough garden hose length and extension cords. When I have used these before, I avoided having the cords (power and extension) sit in the water so I elevated them above the pump (e.g. suspend from the ceiling) and run it to an outlet that is outside of the garage or in a place such that you don't need to be standing in water to plug/unplug the extension cord into the outlet. Some people put these things on wall timers to run intermittently.

The biggest hassle will be having to check on the pump periodically to see how its doing relative to the rain coming into the garage. You can run these pumps "dry" (i.e. down to 1/8" level) for a short period of time but you want to avoid having the pump run "dry" for an extended period. Most of these types of pumps have thermal overloads that trip in the event the motor gets too hot. Easy to reset.

Here's some information from their website.

Set the pump on a hard surface in at least 2 inches of water.

The pump will not remove all water. On a flat surface Model Nos. 2300, 2305, and 2310 (all 1/4HP models) will pump down to within 1/8” of the pumping surface. Model No. 2355 (1/3 HP) will pump down to within 5/8” of the pumping surface.....so I would go with a 1/4 HP model.

Here are the comparative specs on the 1/4HP vs. 1/3HP thermoplastic models. Maximum flow is measured as if you were pumping without any elevation rise or hose attached.

1/4HP (can pump down to 1/8")

• Max Flow (0' of Head) = 1320 GPH
• Effective Flow at 10' Head = 1020 GPH

1/3HP (but can only pump water down to 5/8")

• Max Flow (0' of Head) = 2160 GPH (64% higher than 1/4HP)
• Effective Flow at 10' Head = 1620 GPH (59% higher than 1/4 HP)

Assuming your garage is approximately 20' x 20' and you wait until you have 3" of water in the garage (100 cu. ft = 748 gallons) to commence pumping, it would take approximately 44 minutes to pump out the garage with the 1/4HP pump (with 10' of head, faster with 2' of head) and 28 minutes with the 1/3 HP. The above times do not account for additional water entering the garage and lower efficiency when the water level drops below 2".

 

[NICNEM_PSU80]

The problem with the 1/8 inch is that the pump will cycle on and off every 20 seconds or so. Short term, you need to dig a small hole next to the driveway that is the lower of the two sides of the driveway. You may want to place a 2x4 right infront of the garage door. If you have black top then you could use some 6" spikes to hold it in place to form a small dam. I would cut the corner off so that you can drive over it a bit easier.

The water will channel over to the hole you dug. I would put a 5 gallon bucket in the whole just below the surface of the blacktop/grass elevation put the pump in the bucket and set the float to half of the depth of the bucket.

Long term I would cut a neat trench out of the blacktop across the front of the garage. I would use the same area that you hammer the spikes into for the temporary solution so that the damage from the spikes will be eliminated. I would place a trench drain in the whole. You can buy it inexpensively at Home Depot. You can also buy bags of blacktop to fill in the trench back to the drains that you inserted in the small trench.

Alternatively you could pour concrete up to the edge of the of the trench drains with a slight lip in front of the door which would be a great help to catch the water. Most homeowners would be scared to try this but find a handy friend and buy a case of beer and you'll get it done in less than a day's work.

 

[djm_psu_alum]

You're on the right track...this is a good, inexpensive solution to your periodic problem. Those trash/utility pumps don't work "fast" but they do work well and are very forgiving even if the water has some sediment in it.

Place the pump at the low spot of your garage floor and run the hose up the driveway or to the closest place that you know the water will drain away from your garage naturally. Two (2) feet of hydraulic head isn't very much so the pump will run just fine. Hose length isn't as important of a consideration relative to vertical head because you don't have much friction loss inside of a garden hose (flow is low velocity, laminar)

The biggest consideration is having enough garden hose length and extension cords. When I have used these before, I avoided having the cords (power and extension) sit in the water so I elevated them above the pump (e.g. suspend from the ceiling) and run it to an outlet that is outside of the garage or in a place such that you don't need to be standing in water to plug/unplug the extension cord into the outlet. Some people put these things on wall timers to run intermittently.

The biggest hassle will be having to check on the pump periodically to see how its doing relative to the rain coming into the garage. You can run these pumps "dry" (i.e. down to 1/8" level) for a short period of time but you want to avoid having the pump run "dry" for an extended period. Most of these types of pumps have thermal overloads that trip in the event the motor gets too hot. Easy to reset.

Here's some information from their website.

Set the pump on a hard surface in at least 2 inches of water.

The pump will not remove all water. On a flat surface Model Nos. 2300, 2305, and 2310 (all 1/4HP models) will pump down to within 1/8” of the pumping surface. Model No. 2355 (1/3 HP) will pump down to within 5/8” of the pumping surface.....so I would go with a 1/4 HP model.

Here are the comparative specs on the 1/4HP vs. 1/3HP thermoplastic models. Maximum flow is measured as if you were pumping without any elevation rise or hose attached.

1/4HP (can pump down to 1/8")

• Max Flow (0' of Head) = 1320 GPH
• Effective Flow at 10' Head = 1020 GPH

1/3HP (but can only pump water down to 5/8")

• Max Flow (0' of Head) = 2160 GPH (64% higher than 1/4HP)
• Effective Flow at 10' Head = 1620 GPH (59% higher than 1/4 HP)

Assuming your garage is approximately 20' x 20' and you wait until you have 3" of water in the garage (100 cu. ft = 748 gallons) to commence pumping, it would take approximately 44 minutes to pump out the garage with the 1/4HP pump (with 10' of head, faster with 2' of head) and 28 minutes with the 1/3 HP. The above times do not account for additional water entering the garage and lower efficiency when the water level drops below 2".

Thanks all for the advice. I went with the 1/4HP and hope it is works out. Ideally, I want a long term solution and thinking of doing something more permanent this summer.

Thanks again.

 

[lionroar88]

pictures would be a heck of a lot of help in answering this rather than typed words.

From your description your garage sits at the bottom of a very large hole?

 

[djm_psu_alum]

pictures would be a heck of a lot of help in answering this rather than typed words.

From your description your garage sits at the bottom of a very large hole?

I know. I had pictures on my desktop but couldnt figure out how to attach them here. When I click on the image option it asks for a URL.

 

[lionroar88]

you have to use an image hosting site like ShutterFly, ImageShack, etc

 

[Tom McAndrew]

I know. I had pictures on my desktop but couldnt figure out how to attach them here. When I click on the image option it asks for a URL.

I've provided answers to this so many times, I really should pin it to the top of the board.

Pictures do have to have a URL to be posted. If they are on your desktop, there are workarounds.

1. open http://tinypic.com/
2. select Choose File to get the picture in question
3. make sure the File Type is set to Image
4. select UPLOAD NOW to upload the picture
5. you'll have to answer a question during the upload (an anti-spam question) and then select UPLOAD NOW again
6. a Share This Image screen will appear. You want to copy the URL from the "Direct Link for Layouts" box.
7. Come back to BWI's board, select the Image tool, and then enter the URL you copied in step 6
8. if you want to post multiple pics, return to the Share This Image screen, select UPLOAD MORE, and repeat the process as many times as you have pics to post

 

[djm_psu_alum]

Got it...here you go...
Back of house from the driveway looking at the garage

From the driveway looking at the garage

 

[PSUeng]

Try a building up the surrounding earth first to divert the water or raised flower beds. then a trench drain 6" wide by 2 feet longer then your garage door. either direct the drain around the garage with the slope or into the storm drain. The issue with pumps is that if you get a heavy storm you may not have power.

 

[lionroar88]

wow... who ever installed the pavers should be taken out back for a talking to! This would have been so easy to address PRIOR to the paver installation!

Have you ever worked with pavers before? If so, how good are you?

What is the terrain like to the right of the garage? Does it slope away from that side of the garage?

This is what you need along the front of the garage... pretty easy to figure out how to install it.

https://www.greydock.com/s1e-glvpck-channel-drain-combo-pack.html

 

[djm_psu_alum]

wow... who ever installed the pavers should be taken out back for a talking to! This would have been so easy to address PRIOR to the paver installation!

Have you ever worked with pavers before? If so, how good are you?

What is the terrain like to the right of the garage? Does it slope away from that side of the garage?

This is what you need along the front of the garage... pretty easy to figure out how to install it.

https://www.greydock.com/s1e-glvpck-channel-drain-combo-pack.html

I have not worked with pavers before. The previous owner re-did the whole back area with the paved bricks. The area to the right of the garage is pretty flat. You can't really see it in the picture but we have that right in front of the garage door.

The problem is that whomever installed it didnt really set it up to flow anywhere. It gets filled up and then floods and the water seeps under the garage door. The trench does flow left to right but when I tried to figure out why it would flood so much, it appeared that whoever set it up, just let it flow into the ground. The trench ends at the edge of the garage door and the tunnel continues about another 2 feet to the right but then just stops.

 

[lionroar88]

ok, you have 2 problems.

The driveway should NOT be even with the garage floor - there should be a 'lip'

Water needs somewhere to flow to - level ground isn't going to cut it because the water will just pond. What is behind the garage? What does the terrain do there? A pump is only going to work when you have electricity, otherwise you'll end up with the situation you have now.