OFFICIAL MBB Thread @Wisconsin

[fairfaxlion2]

Why is his conference record and NCAA appearances worse than Ed. I assume you’re counting Ed in your “how bad it’s been for a while”. I’m no Ed fan by the way.

Ed benefitted from some down years in the Big Ten. Otherwise, Ed was pretty terrible and had seasons of 1, 3, 2, and 3 conference wins. (That represents 4 of his 8 years here, BTW). So I get tired of the comparisons with Ed's record. Ed sucked as badly as this staff, and because his recruiting was bizarre (see the great Euro experiment of 2004), I think he was even worse.

I'll repeat what I think a good staff should be able to do here: I'd say 4 tournament appearances every 10 years. But more importantly, finishing .500 or better in the Big Ten in the majority of years. And making a run at the Big Ten title maybe once or twice a decade. If Pat could even come close to coaching on the same level he can recruit, I think he could do that here. But he has shown that he has a lot of weaknesses as a coach.

I think that Jerry Dunn was the best coach we've had in the last 20 years. And we all know that isn't saying much for this program.

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Ed benefitted from some down years in the Big Ten. Otherwise, Ed was pretty terrible and had seasons of 1, 3, 2, and 3 conference wins. (That represents 4 of his 8 years here, BTW). So I get tired of the comparisons with Ed's record. Ed sucked as badly as this staff, and because his recruiting was bizarre (see the great Euro experiment of 2004), I think he was even worse.

I'll repeat what I think a good staff should be able to do here: I'd say 4 tournament appearances every 10 years. But more importantly, finishing .500 or better in the Big Ten in the majority of years. And making a run at the Big Ten title maybe once or twice a decade. If Pat could even come close to coaching on the same level he can recruit, I think he could do that here. But he has shown that he has a lot of weaknesses as a coach.

I think that Jerry Dunn was the best coach we've had in the last 20 years. And we all know that isn't saying much for this program.

What’s your threshold for lack of NCAA appearances before Pat Should go? Put a number on it.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

What’s your threshold for lack of NCAA appearances before Ed should go? Put a number on it.

Do you mean Pat?

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Do you mean Pat?

Yes. But I would have the same standard for anyone not just Pat. Much is made about his recruiting. That “best recruiting class in school history” is never going to make the big dance, and that’s a shame. I was ready for a change after like year 5. But Gave him a little more time with the incoming Stevens Carr class. It’s clear that ain’t happening at this point. I’m ready to move on.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Yes. But I would have the same standard for anyone not just Pat. Much is made about his recruiting. That “best recruiting class in school history” is never going to make the big dance, and that’s a shame. I was ready for a change after like year 5. But Gave him a little more time with the incoming Stevens Carr class. It’s clear that ain’t happening at this point. I’m ready to move on.

I think he should have been fired at the following points:

after the 2015 season

after last season (but winning the NIT made that impossible)

after he shoved Dread this season

However, I am sort of impressed with the month he just had and I think, because his contract is in year 1, he has bought himself more time. If he doesn't make it to the NCAA tournament next season he should be fired (and I think this is the most likely outcome).

If he does make it to the 2020 NCAA tournament, then he needs to make it for a second time by 2022. And a third time by 2025.

If he can't do those things I would fire him at those points in time.

I don't think 8 years is reasonable. But I do give him a mulligan on year 1/2 recruiting because of all the negative publicity around the school
​

 

[AWS1022]

I guess I'll know it when I see it. Could be this offseason if enough guys leave. Could be next year if things don't trend up. But to me, I like our chances of success more in 2020, 2021, and moving forward with Pat Chambers on the sideline than I do with John Becker, Tim Cluess, Dwayne Stephens, Kyle Smith, etc.

We have the worst building in the Big Ten, the worst fanbase, the worst group of assistants (part of what happens when you have the worst financial support for your program). I guess rather than fix those other things, we should expect John Becker to come in and bring on the glory days with a depleted roster (hint, that's what it will be without Pat next year).

Or are you living in the dream world where we'll fire Pat and hire Mark Few away from Gonzaga?

Irrational sports fans are a funny bunch. Nebraska boards want Miles fired, Minnesota boards want Richard P fired, Northwestern fans think it's time to move on from Collins, Maryland fans have had it with Turgeon, Indiana fans think Miller is underachieving. I guess it's just a situation where every school sucks at finding a coach.

Maybe it takes a new coach to come in and demand changes or make changes part of his being hired. I’m sure not all new coaches in every program just step and start coaching. Obviously Pat is in no position to demand any changes or upgrades, so maybe a new coach can do that. Nothing is being done differently yet we’re hoping for different results.

 

[AWS1022]

Ed benefitted from some down years in the Big Ten. Otherwise, Ed was pretty terrible and had seasons of 1, 3, 2, and 3 conference wins. (That represents 4 of his 8 years here, BTW). So I get tired of the comparisons with Ed's record. Ed sucked as badly as this staff, and because his recruiting was bizarre (see the great Euro experiment of 2004), I think he was even worse.

I'll repeat what I think a good staff should be able to do here: I'd say 4 tournament appearances every 10 years. But more importantly, finishing .500 or better in the Big Ten in the majority of years. And making a run at the Big Ten title maybe once or twice a decade. If Pat could even come close to coaching on the same level he can recruit, I think he could do that here. But he has shown that he has a lot of weaknesses as a coach.

I think that Jerry Dunn was the best coach we've had in the last 20 years. And we all know that isn't saying much for this program.

In all fairness, Pat’s best year was because of a really down year for the Big.

 

[AWS1022]

I think he should have been fired at the following points:

after the 2015 season

after last season (but winning the NIT made that impossible)

after he shoved Dread this season

However, I am sort of impressed with the month he just had and I think, because his contract is in year 1, he has bought himself more time. If he doesn't make it to the NCAA tournament next season he should be fired (and I think this is the most likely outcome).

If he does make it to the 2020 NCAA tournament, then he needs to make it for a second time by 2022. And a third time by 2025.

If he can't do those things I would fire him at those points in time.

I don't think 8 years is reasonable. But I do give him a mulligan on year 1/2 recruiting because of all the negative publicity around the school
​

Or is it if he doesn’t make the NCAA tournament next year he should be gone unless his team gets hot the last few weeks of the season...because that’s what’s going on this year.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

In all fairness, Pat’s best year was because of a really down year for the Big.

It was a down year relative to 2019, but still the B1G sent a team to the national title game.

While Ed was here, Michigan was never really good, Indiana was never really that good, Illinois went from great to average, and Northwestern was terrible the whole time. Also Maryland was not in the league. Basically it was Michigan State, Ohio State (sometimes) and everyone else for most of Ed's tenure.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Or is it if he doesn’t make the NCAA tournament next year he should be gone unless his team gets hot the last few weeks of the season...because that’s what’s going on this year.

I still think there is a good case to fire him this year. But, the financial reality of being in year 1 of the contract makes that unlikely.

 

[AWS1022]

I still think there is a good case to fire him this year. But, the financial reality of being in year 1 of the contract makes that unlikely.

I agree with you that they’re not going to get rid of him....I just think they’re putting off the inevitable.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I agree with you that they’re not going to get rid of him....I just think they’re putting off the inevitable.

Yep. PSU did the same thing with Dunn and the result was that years of 2002-2006 were totally a disaster.

The only difference, which is actually a major difference, was that Dunn seemed to kind of give up and his teams were not playing very hard at the end.

To this day I do not understand why PSU couldn't just try to keep him satisfied. Two NCAA appearances and two NITs in his first six years. But everyone couldn't wait to get rid of him.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Today: Just read PSU had 0 FGs & 5 FTs in the last 8 minutes of the game. Amazing they had chances at the end to pull it out.

 

[WDLion]

Fire the coach and play better next year IMHO

The team doesn't score a field goal in the last 5+ minutes and it's the coaches fault. SMH

 

[Nit16]

this is a must win

Just curious. What was “must” about it? Where did you think this team was going?

 

[Nit16]

Dumb ass.

Seriously do you post anything other than internet tough guy stuff. You literally play site cop haha.

 

[bdgan]

The team doesn't score a field goal in the last 5+ minutes and it's the coaches fault. SMH

I think it's a mixed bag. PSU only has one player who is capable of creating his own shot (Stevens).

Reaves can make uncontested set shots but can't create his own shot. Same with Dread. Wheeler can't shoot at all (not even FTs). Watkins hasn't been able to score much at all. That leaves Stevens and opposing defenses know it. It's second guessing but I might have used Stevens as a decoy.

I guess you could blame coaches for not recruiting a PG or PF who can create their own shot. I'm surprised they didn't play Jones more in the 2nd half. He's young and error prone but he has the ability to create his own shot.

The worst play call was the final possession. With only 8 seconds remaining it doesn't seem like a good idea to have Bolton spend 6+ seconds dribbling. He was fouled but that was still pretty bad. Gotta get the ball up the floor faster than that.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I think it's a mixed bag. PSU only has one player who is capable of creating his own shot (Stevens).

Reaves can make uncontested set shots but can't create his own shot. Same with Dread. Wheeler can't shoot at all (not even FTs). Watkins hasn't been able to score much at all. That leaves Stevens and opposing defenses know it. It's second guessing but I might have used Stevens as a decoy.

I guess you could blame coaches for not recruiting a PG or PF who can create their own shot. I'm surprised they didn't play Jones more in the 2nd half. He's young and error prone but he has the ability to create his own shot.

The worst play call was the final possession. With only 8 seconds remaining it doesn't seem like a good idea to have Bolton spend 6+ seconds dribbling. He was fouled but that was still pretty bad. Gotta get the ball up the floor faster than that.

Bolton can create his own shot.

 

[bdgan]

Bolton can create his own shot.

A little bit but not consistently at this point IMO. I'll give him credit for having no fear. He did a got a couple of points in the paint today but he's still a boy among men inside. Hopefully he'll be bigger and stronger next year. He hasn't shown much ability to create his own perimeter shot.

 

[Nitty_Lion]

It was a down year relative to 2019, but still the B1G sent a team to the national title game.

While Ed was here, Michigan was never really good, Indiana was never really that good, Illinois went from great to average, and Northwestern was terrible the whole time. Also Maryland was not in the league. Basically it was Michigan State, Ohio State (sometimes) and everyone else for most of Ed's tenure.

Michigan had 2 tournament appearances during Ed. Purdue and Wisky were also very good programs during Ed...

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Or is it if he doesn’t make the NCAA tournament next year he should be gone unless his team gets hot the last few weeks of the season...because that’s what’s going on this year.

Bingo. The goal posts keep getting moved. Next year we could literally start 0-20 and morons on the board would argue for Pat to come back because he won 10 straight to end the season.

 

[Nitty_Lion]

The team doesn't score a field goal in the last 5+ minutes and it's the coaches fault. SMH

Good point, coaching is irrelevant right? Coaches don’t design plays or schemes to get buckets. Clown.

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Just curious. What was “must” about it? Where did you think this team was going?

It’s a running joke at this point.

 

[81b&w]

Yes. But I would have the same standard for anyone not just Pat. Much is made about his recruiting. That “best recruiting class in school history” is never going to make the big dance, and that’s a shame. I was ready for a change after like year 5. But Gave him a little more time with the incoming Stevens Carr class. It’s clear that ain’t happening at this point. I’m ready to move on.

Maybe 2020 is your year?

 

[Lion8286]

It’s a running joke at this point.

You're a running joke at this point.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Michigan had 2 tournament appearances during Ed. Purdue and Wisky were also very good programs during Ed...

Yes, Wisconsin was good. Michigan was nowhere close to where they are now. They were coming off of sanctions and most of Ed's tenure overlapped with Amaker, who did little. But anyway, the point is that Ed was not any better than Pat. If you watched for the last 15 years you know it.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Bingo. The goal posts keep getting moved. Next year we could literally start 0-20 and morons on the board would argue for Pat to come back because he won 10 straight to end the season.

Except that he was responding to me saying that Pat should have been fired in 2015, and last year, and mid-season this year. And I listed three more dates when he ought to be fired if he does make an NCAA tournament.

But he wanted me to say something he could disagree with. so he just responded to an argument that nobody made.

 

[WDLion]

Good point, coaching is irrelevant right? Coaches don’t design plays or schemes to get buckets. Clown.

Players need to execute and make plays, clown. Apparently you think players are programed to do whatever button the coach pushes. You're really not very smart. In fact you're nothing but a trolling fool.

 

[lbv6833]

Dumb ass.

Another insightful post from the resident prick

 

[Erial_Lion]

Another insightful post from the resident prick

You just registered for the site to make that post?

 

[OzLion]

Yep. PSU did the same thing with Dunn .... Two NCAA appearances and two NITs in his first six years. But everyone couldn't wait to get rid of him.

The perception at the time was that Dunn inherited an outstanding team from Bruce Parkhill his first year and then struck gold with an unheralded recruit, Joe Crispin, who turned out to be amazing. The team totally crashed and burned once Crispin moved on. Add to this reports/rumors that the players didn't like playing for Dunn and people got the idea that the team's success came despite Dunn and not because of him. Fair in hindsight? Probably not, but, as you say, those last few years under Dunn were dreadful and hopeless.

 

[WDLion]

You just registered for the site to make that post?

He's persistent.

 

[Bobpsu]

Yes, Wisconsin was good. Michigan was nowhere close to where they are now. They were coming off of sanctions and most of Ed's tenure overlapped with Amaker, who did little. But anyway, the point is that Ed was not any better than Pat. If you watched for the last 15 years you know it.

You are FIRED!

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Yes, Wisconsin was good. Michigan was nowhere close to where they are now. They were coming off of sanctions and most of Ed's tenure overlapped with Amaker, who did little. But anyway, the point is that Ed was not any better than Pat. If you watched for the last 15 years you know it.

Ed was no better than Pat? Except for the whole big ten record and NCAA appearance metric in the same amount of time. So sure, if you take out the metrics that actually matter....sure they’re equal!

 

[Nitty_Lion]

Players need to execute and make plays, clown. Apparently you think players are programed to do whatever button the coach pushes. You're really not very smart. In fact you're nothing but a trolling fool.

You should try opening your eyes once in a while if you think Pat is a good coach at play design coming out of timeouts

 

[Nit16]

The team doesn't score a field goal in the last 5+ minutes and it's the coaches fault. SMH

Definitely not Chambers fault! Next year is the year we pull it all together for final 32 run in NCCAs. Chambers will have the last laugh at all of the haters. Dumping Chambers at this point is bad move. Gotta stick it out with him. He’s a really good guy. We Are!

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Ed was no better than Pat? Except for the whole big ten record and NCAA appearance metric in the same amount of time. So sure, if you take out the metrics that actually matter....sure they’re equal!

They are about equal. Not very good.

It's not like Ed's one-and-done in 2011 did much of anything for the program. Nice that he made it, but he then turned around and left for the Patriot league.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

The perception at the time was that Dunn inherited an outstanding team from Bruce Parkhill his first year and then struck gold with an unheralded recruit, Joe Crispin, who turned out to be amazing. The team totally crashed and burned once Crispin moved on. Add to this reports/rumors that the players didn't like playing for Dunn and people got the idea that the team's success came despite Dunn and not because of him. Fair in hindsight? Probably not, but, as you say, those last few years under Dunn were dreadful and hopeless.

Yeah that was the perception, and I was right on board with it back then.

But the truth is, Dunn was the one who coached the '95-'96 team, still our best ever in the B1G. And the 2001 team was in Dunn's sixth season. There is no conceivable way to say that was not his team.

Yes there was something about him over-practicing with the players. Kind of minor compared to the stuff that goes on in this sport.

In hindsight think he got a raw deal. Nobody else was able to reach the postseason as often as he did. Including the legendary Parkhill, who went to a grand total of one NCAA tournament in ten years

 

[AWS1022]

Definitely not Chambers fault! Next year is the year we pull it all together for final 32 run in NCCAs. Chambers will have the last laugh at all of the haters. Dumping Chambers at this point is bad move. Gotta stick it out with him. He’s a really good guy. We Are!

So he would be a good neighbor, that doesn’t mean he’s a good basketball coach.

 

[Nitty_Lion]

They are about equal. Not very good.

It's not like Ed's one-and-done in 2011 did much of anything for the program. Nice that he made it, but he then turned around and left for the Patriot league.

Props to you for posting at 4:15am. He didn’t really “leave”. He was forced out with like 1 year remaining and AD refusing to give him an extension. He left a year before he was surely to be fired. But that’s besides the point. He at least made it, which is the goal.