OT: Eastern cougars removed from endangered list and implications.....

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

https://www.courthousenews.com/now-extinct-eastern-cougar-removed-from-endangered-list/

What this means is that the eastern cougar is now thought to be extinct and, therefore, other species of cougars can be released into the wild in the range that the eastern cougar once roamed.

“We need large carnivores like cougars to keep the wild food web healthy, so we hope Eastern and Midwestern states will reintroduce them,” said Michael Robinson, conservation advocate with the Center for Biological Diversity in response to the final rule. “Cougars would curb deer overpopulation and tick-borne diseases that threaten human health.”

 

[Erial_Lion]

Extinct? I saw plenty of Eastern Cougars out in Atlantic City on Saturday night...

 

[royboy]

Extinct? I saw plenty of Eastern Cougars out in Atlantic City on Saturday night...

ba..dump

 

[Pardlion]

https://www.courthousenews.com/now-extinct-eastern-cougar-removed-from-endangered-list/

What this means is that the eastern cougar is now thought to be extinct and, therefore, other species of cougars can be released into the wild in the range that the eastern cougar once roamed.

“We need large carnivores like cougars to keep the wild food web healthy, so we hope Eastern and Midwestern states will reintroduce them,” said Michael Robinson, conservation advocate with the Center for Biological Diversity in response to the final rule. “Cougars would curb deer overpopulation and tick-borne diseases that threaten human health.”

I heard they're planning a march on DC.

 

[NittPicker]

Extinct? I saw plenty of Eastern Cougars out in Atlantic City on Saturday night...

Ah yes, Lou Anna Simon and Keren Peetz.

 

[LealandLoyal]

If you have some free time, read this amazing book about the Pennsylvania Lion:

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...nct pennsylvania animals lion panther&f=false

 

[blion72]

If you have some free time, read this amazing book about the Pennsylvania Lion:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uSouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=extinct+pennsylvania+animals+lion+panther&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT1M-gmO_YAhVBX60KHYOXDCsQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=extinct pennsylvania animals lion panther&f=false

when was the last recorded sighting of a mountain lion in PA? i think they are now seen in VA/NC/Tenn mountain areas.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

 

[Blueblood4eva]

So does this mean we can still stalk cougar? I am pretty sure it is a crime to touch one without consent. Even if they appear appreciative!

 

[psualt]

“Cougars would curb deer overpopulation and tick-borne diseases that threaten human health.”

Seems like the game commission has done a nice job in cutting the deer population without the use of cougars yet somehow the tick problem worsens.

 

[nits74]

Seems like the game commission has done a nice job in cutting the deer population without the use of cougars yet somehow the tick problem worsens.

I'm thinking generally warmer winters haven't helped.

 

[BoChops]

Several years ago, I stumbled upon The Great Hunt of 1805 in Bradford County, which is believed to be the largest organized hunt of large game in recorded history. 600 men formed a circle 120 miles around and closed in, killing 72 panthers, 90 wolves, 145 bears, 37 foxes, and 28 catamounts. The full article from “The Bradford County Chronology” is a few pages long.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-wzSAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA20&lpg=RA3-PA20&dq=bradford+county+chronology+the+great+hunt&source=bl&ots=r09IZLzM2j&sig=XlewRSNxSTsWtT5cquNzO2riVDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTn4LGtO_YAhUIWqwKHb0NAhYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=bradford county chronology the great hunt&f=false

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Several years ago, I stumbled upon The Great Hunt of 1805 in Bradford County, which is believed to be the largest organized hunt of large game in recorded history. 600 men formed a circle 120 miles around and closed in, killing 72 panthers, 90 wolves, 145 bears, 37 foxes, and 28 catamounts. The full article from “The Bradford County Chronology” is a few pages long.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-wzSAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA20&lpg=RA3-PA20&dq=bradford+county+chronology+the+great+hunt&source=bl&ots=r09IZLzM2j&sig=XlewRSNxSTsWtT5cquNzO2riVDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTn4LGtO_YAhUIWqwKHb0NAhYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=bradford county chronology the great hunt&f=false

Oh! You mean you read the book? Shit, I thought you participated!

 

[BBG65]

The Center for Biological Diversity is a liberal group that is pretty much anti-hunting. A large cougar population would seriously hurt deer hunting in Pa. and the Center would love that. We have too dense deer populations in some suburban areas where hunting is limited, but we don't want lions there. The deer herd in the mountainous wild areas is just now recovering from a modern low that bottomed out around 2004-2012. Some areas had populations under 10 deer per sq. mile. As for ticks, I haven't seen any correlation with deer numbers. We had few ticks in the 60s, 70s and 80s when the mountain deer herds were overly large, then tick numbers exploded during the lean years.

 

[ST8FAN]

when was the last recorded sighting of a mountain lion in PA? i think they are now seen in VA/NC/Tenn mountain areas.

They’ve been seen in Pennsylvania in recent years.

 

[nittanyfan333]

They’ve been seen in Pennsylvania in recent years.

Yup, it was about 20 years ago so not so recent, but I saw one in Potter County in the Coudersport area

 

[ericstratton-rushchairman]

My second wife is an eastern Cougar (from Long Island)... so I guess I did my part

 

[TheGLOV]

I saw this one once in a tree.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

I saw this one once in a tree.

#METOO

 

[rudedude]

Seen outside of Honesdale

 

[mOOse_44]

They’ve been seen in Pennsylvania in recent years.

Wildlife officials of record state that the last eastern lion was killed in Quebec in the 1930's. There have been no confirmed sightings in PA since that time period.

 

[Ct. Lion]

It is important to differentiate between a native eastern born mountain lion like the one killed in the 1930s which I think have been extirpated and a wandering western born mountain lion like the one killed on the Merritt Parkway in Ct. a couple of years ago that through DNA testing was proved to have been born to a mountain lion pride in southwest South Dakota. That was a young male that was on the prowl for a mate and a new territory and through sightings and DNA testing of scat and hair the Dept. of Interior tracked this single animal all over the mid-west, up into Ontario, over to Quebec, down into NY, down the Hudson Valley, over the river to the east side and down into Ct. where it was hit by a car. Stomach analysis proved it was living very well on deer meat.
So these mountain lions can travel great distances and though this was a rare event, it shows that over hundreds of years a once extirpated species can re-populate old traditional land masses. In the late 1700s into the early 1800s Ct. had virtually no forests, all of them being cut for lumber to build the eastern cities. There is only one area in Ct. of virgin forest of maybe 100 acres. At that time there were no more deer, moose, bobcat, mountain lion, wolves, coyotes, fishers, bears, beavers, etc. in the state of Ct. Now all of them have been reestablished except mountain lions and wolves and Ct. is once again mostly forested and though a small state it has large expanses of open forest land that these animals need. Most of these species have repopulated the state due to territory expansion. We now have about 300 black bears, about 30 moose, thousands of beaver, bobcat in every section of the state, etc. Some species were reintroduced such as fishers and turkeys but for the most part the others just wandered back.

 

[Woodpecker]

That was a young male that was on the prowl for a mate and a new territory and through sightings and DNA testing of scat and hair the Dept. of Interior tracked this single animal all over the mid-west, up into Ontario, over to Quebec, down into NY, down the Hudson Valley, over the river to the east side and down into Ct. where it was hit by a car.

That is one horny lion

 

[ST8FAN]

Wildlife officials of record state that the last eastern lion was killed in Quebec in the 1930's. There have been no confirmed sightings in PA since that time period.

“No confirmed sightings” by wildlife officials does not mean there have been no sightings by individuals. Because there have been.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Mt lions have been confirmed in Kentucky and Tennessee. They are western cats that are on the move. Only a matter of time before they travel back to Oh, WV, and Pa.

 

[Ct. Lion]

Mt lions have been confirmed in Kentucky and Tennessee. They are western cats that are on the move. Only a matter of time before they travel back to Oh, WV, and Pa.

Excellent point. From SW South Dakota into Nebraska, over to Iowa, south to Missouri, east towards Tennessee or Kentucky, up to WV and Pa. Lots of big forests along the way to set up a home base. The Quehanna Wild Area would be perfect. Just need a mate to come along for the trip. Plenty to eat along the way and in their new home base.

 

[step.eng69]

If you have some free time, read this amazing book about the Pennsylvania Lion:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uSouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=extinct+pennsylvania+animals+lion+panther&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT1M-gmO_YAhVBX60KHYOXDCsQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=extinct pennsylvania animals lion panther&f=false

Thank you much for the link. I'll read it later today & tomorrow or the weekend.

I'm already troubled with black bear on the porch, coyote running in the nearby woods, in the future can I expect the Nittany Lion sniffing my bed room screened French doors, in the spring & fall, while my naked butt is sticking out of the covers six feet from the screens?

 

[RU31trap]

I think what separates the Mountain Lion from the Black Bear is that a Mountain Lions can and will kill large game and if given the chance would attack and kill humans. When I lived in Southern California 1987-1992 there were at least three attacks east of the Mission Viejo area. Even though the attacks were not fatal the individuals were seriously hurt and disfigured. I fully realized that developers encroached on their natural habitat by building homes. All I'm saying is that reintroducing them to an area remotely close to homes can be dangerous.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

Seems like the game commission has done a nice job in cutting the deer population without the use of cougars yet somehow the tick problem worsens.

just hit a deer last week. Seems there are more deer now than a few years ago. Guess it depends on the location.

This is one I'm not informed on but releasing cougars doesn't seem like a stellar idea to me. Who knows.

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

I think what separates the Mountain Lion from the Black Bear is that a Mountain Lions can and will kill large game and if given the chance would attack and kill humans. When I lived in Southern California 1987-1992 there were at least three attacks east of the Mission Viejo area. Even though the attacks were not fatal the individuals were seriously hurt and disfigured. I fully realized that developers encroached on their natural habitat by building homes. All I'm saying is that reintroducing them to an area remotely close to homes can be dangerous.

I am guessing that cats from over-populated areas like Cali will be trapped/tranquilized and relocated to remote areas in the old eastern range.

I am also guessing that the day will come when it will again be legal to hunt/trap these cats in the old eastern range.

 

[CF LION]

Seems like the game commission has done a nice job in cutting the deer population without the use of cougars yet somehow the tick problem worsens.

Mice, rabbits, squirrels and chipmunks are likely more responsible for planting ticks in our backyards than deer.

 

[The Spin Meister]

No need to transplant cats to Pa. They are on the way. Already in Ky and Tn. Only a matter of time. I'd give it ten years max since big cats travel long distances.

They are certainly more dangerous than black bears, especially for kids. But Pa has a lot of hunters so they will be kept in isolated areas, IMO. Quehanna Wild Area and Sproul SF are likely. But many areas will support them, just about anywhere north of I 80 and in the Laurel Mts

CF Lion is right. The white footed mouse is the main vector of ticks. And their population is determined by the mast crop/acorns. LOts of acorns in last few years = more mice = more ticks.

 

[mOOse_44]

Thank you much for the link. I'll read it later today & tomorrow or the weekend.

I'm already troubled with black bear on the porch, coyote running in the nearby woods, in the future can I expect the Nittany Lion sniffing my bed room screened French doors, in the spring & fall, while my naked butt is sticking out of the covers six feet from the screens?

Gotta have top predators step. Read about how re introducing wolves to yellowstone has brought the whole ecosystem back into order. It has even fixed riverbank erosion problems created by excessive grazing. So the land itself is actually changing for the better.

 

[mOOse_44]

If you have some free time, read this amazing book about the Pennsylvania Lion:

https://books.google.com/books?id=uSouAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&dq=extinct+pennsylvania+animals+lion+panther&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT1M-gmO_YAhVBX60KHYOXDCsQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=extinct pennsylvania animals lion panther&f=false

Wow that is a great read thanks for the link. Sounds like the Pennsylvania lions were a different sub species than the ones found in WV. The PA cats were more closely related to the ones in NY, Ontario, Quebec and north. The were larger with bigger heads and different coats. Some accounts of monster cats bagged of almost 12 feet long from nose to tail. It was also funny how the wolves and the cats didn't mix ranges. It was stated that the cats were afraid of the wolves and stayed in the central mountains and higher elevations.

 

[Ct. Lion]

Large cats will feed almost entirely on large game like deer whereas black bears will eat almost anything from plants and grasses to fish, small game, birds, berries and larger game like deer. Bears are a huge predator of whitetail fawns. They will follow a doe that smells like it is going to give birth and when the fawn is dropped the bear just goes over and has dinner.
If they can catch an injured adult deer they will kill it too.
In Ct. our wildlife division has studied deer predation extensively and now thinks that bobcat and bear combined kill more deer of all ages than the coyotes. We have bobcats everywhere in Ct. Per acre they are far more prevalent here than in Pa. I saw four bobcat in my neighborhood, all at one time, this past Fall one day. They will kill a fawn in less than a minute.
Add in generous hunting seasons and there really is no need for another major predator. The deer population in Ct., as it is in Pa., is much smaller today than it was in the mid-80s when I moved to Ct. Same with NY. Plus the deer distribution has been skewed into the suburbs from the open forests due in part to the predator issue involving coyotes, bears and bobcats which inhabit the open forests more than the suburban areas that deer can tolerate.
I have been hunting all three states extensively during the deer seasons since the early 1970s and have a good history of these deer populations and they peaked sometime in the 1990s when they started to open up liberal doe hunting.

 

[BBG65]

Large cats will feed almost entirely on large game like deer whereas black bears will eat almost anything from plants and grasses to fish, small game, birds, berries and larger game like deer. Bears are a huge predator of whitetail fawns. They will follow a doe that smells like it is going to give birth and when the fawn is dropped the bear just goes over and has dinner.
If they can catch an injured adult deer they will kill it too.
In Ct. our wildlife division has studied deer predation extensively and now thinks that bobcat and bear combined kill more deer of all ages than the coyotes. We have bobcats everywhere in Ct. Per acre they are far more prevalent here than in Pa. I saw four bobcat in my neighborhood, all at one time, this past Fall one day. They will kill a fawn in less than a minute.
Add in generous hunting seasons and there really is no need for another major predator. The deer population in Ct., as it is in Pa., is much smaller today than it was in the mid-80s when I moved to Ct. Same with NY. Plus the deer distribution has been skewed into the suburbs from the open forests due in part to the predator issue involving coyotes, bears and bobcats which inhabit the open forests more than the suburban areas that deer can tolerate.
I have been hunting all three states extensively during the deer seasons since the early 1970s and have a good history of these deer populations and they peaked sometime in the 1990s when they started to open up liberal doe hunting.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I will differ in that the deer population in much of Pa. peaked a bit earlier, like in the 70s.

 

[BBG65]

Gotta have top predators step. Read about how re introducing wolves to yellowstone has brought the whole ecosystem back into order. It has even fixed riverbank erosion problems created by excessive grazing. So the land itself is actually changing for the better.

Top predators compete with hunters as top predators and I prefer we hunters. A Ntl. Park like Yellowstone doesn't allow hunting so that is an exception. Prey species can only tolerate so much predation without drastic drops in numbers and predators know no seasons or limits. The young are especially vulnerable. Wolves have decimated elk populations in some areas of the west to the point that they have put many outfitters out of business. I've read reports from areas in Alaska where wolves are killing 90% of moose calves and numbers are dropping accordingly.

 

[BlackNovember]

Why does everyone always assume killing is the answer?

Can't we just put up signs that say "no ticks allowed"?

Why not just educate the deer about safe sex?

I get that cougars are probably somewhat dangerous and have in the past been valued for their luxurious and furry pelts, but if they are confined to small regions like nightclubs and department stores, they aren't much of a threat to the general population.

 

[Ct. Lion]

I wholeheartedly agree, but I will differ in that the deer population in much of Pa. peaked a bit earlier, like in the 70s.

Thinking about my deer hunting in the Allegheny National Forest west of Bradford in the late 70s v. the 80s and 90s, it is true that I did see more total deer in the late 70s. I hunt primarily rack bucks and those did seem to increase up until the massive doe shooting started with antler restrictions. One problem with massive doe shooting is that a third of the deer shot are yearling bucks so antler restrictions don't matter unless you have new bucks coming along to replenish the herd.
Seeing 50 or more deer in a day in the large forest areas probably means there are too many deer in the forest but seeing a dozen all week means that any kind of population management through fawn recruitment is going to be challenging and in some parts of the northeast that is where we are today.

 

[Limestone_Lion]

Here is the 2017-2018 Deer Population Report and license allocation.

If you take the time to go through some of this, it is very interesting, especially with respects to forest growth and such. There is way more to deer population balance then just how many deer you want to see in the woods.

http://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wild...ss Allocations and Supporting Information.pdf