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OT Electrical Breaker Question

The Stan

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2001
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I'm planning on doing so rewiring in my breaker box. I have something there that I'm not sure about. It is a BR215 breaker, which is a Bryant 240V breaker (looked like 2 110V breakers until I looked more carefully). The gang connector is removed and it looks to be wired as two separate 110V breakers.

This seems to make some sense to me, but I've never heard of splitting the breakers into 2 110V breakers. Is this at all common, or okay? I've heard of using two 110 to supply a 240... but not the other way.

Thanks for any input.
 
I'm planning on doing so rewiring in my breaker box. I have something there that I'm not sure about. It is a BR215 breaker, which is a Bryant 240V breaker (looked like 2 110V breakers until I looked more carefully). The gang connector is removed and it looks to be wired as two separate 110V breakers.

This seems to make some sense to me, but I've never heard of splitting the breakers into 2 110V breakers. Is this at all common, or okay? I've heard of using two 110 to supply a 240... but not the other way.

Thanks for any input.

If the wire between connecting the two breakers is removed this type breaker becomes two separate breakers, I assume the hot wires to these breakers are #12 wire.... are they? I routinely throw old breakers and replace them with new ones when repurposing the use of curcuit breaker slots on panels. Are each of these feeding two separate outbound circuits?
 
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I'm planning on doing so rewiring in my breaker box. I have something there that I'm not sure about. It is a BR215 breaker, which is a Bryant 240V breaker (looked like 2 110V breakers until I looked more carefully). The gang connector is removed and it looks to be wired as two separate 110V breakers.

This seems to make some sense to me, but I've never heard of splitting the breakers into 2 110V breakers. Is this at all common, or okay? I've heard of using two 110 to supply a 240... but not the other way.

Thanks for any input.

Yep. All good and no problem.
 
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I'm planning on doing so rewiring in my breaker box. I have something there that I'm not sure about. It is a BR215 breaker, which is a Bryant 240V breaker (looked like 2 110V breakers until I looked more carefully). The gang connector is removed and it looks to be wired as two separate 110V breakers.

This seems to make some sense to me, but I've never heard of splitting the breakers into 2 110V breakers. Is this at all common, or okay? I've heard of using two 110 to supply a 240... but not the other way.

Thanks for any input.
Without knowing more about how the circuits are wired, I'll take a guess that the two circuits sharing the double-pole breaker (multi-wire branch circuits where a single 14-3 or 12-3 wire was run with both circuits sharing a neutral wire) someone purposely removed the handle-tie because one circuit was tripping causing the other circuit to also trip. If so, what you have might or might not be "code-compliant" depending on what version of the NEC your municipality is using.

As long as the red and black wires of the circuits are on opposite 'legs' of the breaker box, (meaning the breakers must be right next to each other), then there is no safety hazard and it is perfectly code legal. If your municipality is on the NEC2008 code or newer, then you must use a two pole breaker or two single pole breakers, but regardless of singles vs. double, the handle tie must be installed.

If you ever sell your house, the inspector will flag it as a necessary correction.
 
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It actually has two wires at one breaker and one at the other, all are black. 15 amp breaker (s) . So it looks like they are feeding 3 circuits.
 
It actually has two wires at one breaker and one at the other, all are black. 15 amp breaker (s) . So it looks like they are feeding 3 circuits.

Call an electrician..... sounds like something I would diagram, calc load on the panel to code and then start over. Repeat, call a liscensed electrician.
 
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I'm planning on doing so rewiring in my breaker box. I have something there that I'm not sure about. It is a BR215 breaker, which is a Bryant 240V breaker (looked like 2 110V breakers until I looked more carefully). The gang connector is removed and it looks to be wired as two separate 110V breakers.

This seems to make some sense to me, but I've never heard of splitting the breakers into 2 110V breakers. Is this at all common, or okay? I've heard of using two 110 to supply a 240... but not the other way.

Thanks for any input.
Just some basics. In the US, our nominal power supply is now 120V (it used to be 110V). There are two large wires coming into your box, usually at the top, that are connected to the main breaker. Each of these wires is carrying 120V but they are out of phase from each other, and combined they make 240V. You'll also notice that there are two "bus bars" running vertically that are parallel to each other and have contact points that are interlaced. A two-pole breaker picks up two contacts, one from each bus bar, thus you really have two 120V lines, not one 240V line.

Using a two-pole breaker as two separate 120V runs is safe from a hardware perspective, but is also a very bad idea as it creates confusion that will eventually lead to a serious mistake. Using a two-pole for 240V without the bridge is very bad...do NOT do this...ever.
 
I've talked to some electricians, showed pictures, but didn't have those two breakers in any pictures. I took some more pictures. I'll go back to them, just won't see them until Tuesday and was going to work on the project this weekend
 
It actually has two wires at one breaker and one at the other, all are black. 15 amp breaker (s) . So it looks like they are feeding 3 circuits.
Do you have any empty slots in your panel? I suspect the answer is no.
 
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No empty slots. The panel has 30 full sized slots. Currently it only has full sized breakers. It is designed to accept 20 full sized brakers and 20 half sized breakers it is a ge. I was considering removing all none ge breakers and adding half sized breakers to eliminate all double taps. I have the correct half sized breakers listed in the panel spec sheet.

Just was confused with the Bryant breakers... . And they take up two spots in the area that accepts half sized breakers.
 
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Do you have any rooms with switched and unswitched receptacles. Ones that are split at the receptcal, so a light switch controls half and the other half is always on.
 
Yes we have rooms with switched controlled outlets and others that are always on .
 
Neither breaker configuration you described meets NEC requirements. Electricity is a funny thing. Even when things aren't done to code, sometimes it works until it doesn't. I'd have a professional replace it with the proper breaker.
 
Without knowing more about how the circuits are wired, I'll take a guess that the two circuits sharing the double-pole breaker (multi-wire branch circuits where a single 14-3 or 12-3 wire was run with both circuits sharing a neutral wire) someone purposely removed the handle-tie because one circuit was tripping causing the other circuit to also trip. If so, what you have might or might not be "code-compliant" depending on what version of the NEC your municipality is using.

As long as the red and black wires of the circuits are on opposite 'legs' of the breaker box, (meaning the breakers must be right next to each other), then there is no safety hazard and it is perfectly code legal. If your municipality is on the NEC2008 code or newer, then you must use a two pole breaker or two single pole breakers, but regardless of singles vs. double, the handle tie must be installed.

If you ever sell your house, the inspector will flag it as a necessary correction.

Egads. So much wrong in this post.
 
I appreciate all the replies. Even with everyone's best intentions, no one really has all the information. I'll go talk it through, with pictures, with a few electricians I know, to be sure.

I'm fairly comfortable with everything in the box (as modified) , and had electricians confirm my plan, except for that one issue,. I hadn't noticed that before, so I didnt discuss that part.
 
Power comes into your house as two 110V AC lines, and a neutral. Alternating current means it alternates between +110V and -110V.

The two 110V lines coming into your house are 180 degrees out of phase from each other. So, when one is at +110V, the other is at -110V -- And that is how you get 220V power

Going down each side of your distro panel, the breaker slots alternate between the two 110V lines. So, the voltage difference between two breaker slots next to each other is always 220V.

Those 220V breakers are literally just two 110V breakers in a housing that forces them to use two side-by-side breaker slots, and with a piece that ties the two switches together.

If you disconnect the piece that ties the two switches together, you now have two perfectly viable and safe 110V breakers.

You don't even have to have your second neutral wire run from the panel -- You can branch that off at the box where the old 220V line was run.

Disclaimer: While what I'm saying here is perfectly valid and 100% safe, I wouldn't be shocked (no pun intended) if it would be against code as the code is written to not only enforce things to be safe, but also clear and easy to understand -- And by disconnecting that piece that ties the two switches on the 220V breaker, and turning it into two 110V breakers, you're muddying the water a bit for the next person (which in this case, you are that person) that tried to work on your electrical system.

But from the perspective of function and safety, there is nothing to be concerned about.
 
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Fish Says:

"Power comes into your house as two 110V AC lines, and a neutral. Alternating current means it alternates between +110V and -110V."
-----
Really? It's painfully evident that you are wholly unfamiliar with 3 phase power. There's more coming into the house than just two 110's.

I also especially enjoyed your "disclaimer" :rolleyes:

Did Fabian teach you all you know about residential electricity? One can only hope that the two of you both wear rubber Crocs while he stands behind you "working on your panel".
 
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h=300
 
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Fish Says:

"Power comes into your house as two 110V AC lines, and a neutral. Alternating current means it alternates between +110V and -110V."
-----
Really? It's painfully evident that you are wholly unfamiliar with 3 phase power and the use of dual-pole 240v breakers in same.

I also especially enjoyed your "disclaimer" :rolleyes:

Did Fabian teach you all you know about residential electricity? One can only hope that the two of you both wear rubber Crocs while he stands behind you "working on your panel".

LOL... you've just stepped in it big time. I'll let fish continue to have all the fun.
 
Fish Says:

"Power comes into your house as two 110V AC lines, and a neutral. Alternating current means it alternates between +110V and -110V."
-----
Really? It's painfully evident that you are wholly unfamiliar with 3 phase power and the use of dual-pole 240v breakers in same.

I also especially enjoyed your "disclaimer" :rolleyes:

Did Fabian teach you all you know about residential electricity? One can only hope that the two of you both wear rubber Crocs while he stands behind you "working on your panel".

It's painfully evident that you can use Google to find something kinda on topic but completely irrelevant, then post it as if it's not irrelevanti n an effort to distract from your previous "misinformed" post(s).

Now go pour yourself another white Russian.
 
It's painfully evident that you can use Google to find something kinda on topic but completely irrelevant, then post it as if it's not irrelevanti n an effort to distract from your previous "misinformed" post(s).

Now go pour yourself another white Russian.
You have absolutely no clue about 3-phase residential electrical service, do you? I have it at my primary residence.

In fact, I just replaced (to the hatred of my local utility) a dying 5 ton 3P AC unit (R22) with another 5 ton 3P AC unit (R410).

How is Fabian these days?:)
 
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It's painfully evident that you can use Google to find something kinda on topic but completely irrelevant, then post it as if it's not irrelevanti n an effort to distract from your previous "misinformed" post(s).

Now go pour yourself another white Russian.

I don't think that was intended to me, I was only pointing out the adventure part of it which could provide a good kodak moment
 
You have absolutely no clue about 3-phase residential electrical service, do you? I have it at my primary residence.

Nope. No idea. I'm really stumped here.

How about you explain how 3-phase electrical service is a problem for the OP's separated 220V breaker, and I will learn from your explanation.

I have my notepad and pen, and ready to take notes.

:)
 
Fish's write-up is mostly correct with the exception that 110V is now 120V in the US.

Peetz, 3-phase is not brought into residential properties. 240V is achieved by using 2, 120V lines that are out of phase by 180 degrees.
 
Nope. No idea. I'm really stumped here.

How about you explain how 3-phase electrical service is a problem for the OP's separated 220V breaker, and I will learn from your explanation.

I have my notepad and pen, and ready to take notes.

:)
We first have to get past your obvious unfamiliarity with NEC code and the prohibited use of shared neutrals , in either 110v or 220v multi-wire circuits without proper breaker switching (banded) at the panel.

You're free to use another "disclaimer" if you'd like. :)
 
Fish's write-up is mostly correct with the exception that 110V is now 120V in the US.

Peetz, 3-phase is not brought into residential properties. 240V is achieved by using 2, 120V lines that are out of phase by 180 degrees.
I have 3-phase at my primary residence ... 110 / 110 / 218-220.

I agree with your position that most residential electrical service is now 120v and how 240v is effectively achieved.
 
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Fish's write-up is mostly correct with the exception that 110V is now 120V in the US.

Peetz, 3-phase is not brought into residential properties. 240V is achieved by using 2, 120V lines that are out of phase by 180 degrees.

Goodnap, It's painfully evident that you don't understand DC, and the "effect" a capacitor has on it. :)
 
Goodnap, It's painfully evident that you don't understand DC, and the "effect" a capacitor has on it. :)
Well, I'd try to explain 110 vs 120 to you but maybe it's better if you were read something written that is dated 1984 or newer. :)

In the United States and Canada, national standards specify that the nominal voltage at the source should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 V to 126 V (RMS) (−5% to +5%). Historically 110 V, 115 V and 117 V have been used at different times and places in North America.

As for capacitors, WTF are you talking about? No one in this conversation has mentioned capacitors,
 
We first have to get past your obvious unfamiliarity with NEC code and the prohibited use of shared neutrals , in either 110v or 220v multi-wire circuits without proper breaker switching (banded) at the panel.

You're free to use another "disclaimer" if you'd like. :)

I'm well aware of shared neutrals not being permitted by code. I pulled and replaced a three wire that was running to my disposal and dishwasher (a common practice in the past) during a recent renovation for just that reason (I like to bring things up to code when I can, even if not required).

But shared neutrals are absolutely zero problem from a functional and safety perspective if the two lines sharing the neutral are on opposite (180 degrees) phases.

Now, carry on about how 3-phase power is relevant to the OP.
 
I have 3-phase at my primary residence ... 110 / 110 / 218-220.

I agree with your position that most residential electrical service is now 120v and how 240v is effectively achieved.

What equipment do you have that requires 3 phase power?
 
Well, I'd try to explain 110 vs 120 to you but maybe it's better if you were read something written that is dated 1984 or newer. :)

In the United States and Canada, national standards specify that the nominal voltage at the source should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 V to 126 V (RMS) (−5% to +5%). Historically 110 V, 115 V and 117 V have been used at different times and places in North America.

As for capacitors, WTF are you talking about? No one in this conversation has mentioned capacitors,

My post was actually mocking phyrsty - since we agreed, I brought up something that is completely irrelevant and claimed you must not understand it. :)
 
My post was actually mocking phyrsty - since we agreed, I brought up something that is completely irrelevant and claimed you must not understand it. :)
Ok, but since there is another thread discussing capacitors you had me worried about your sanity. :)
 
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