Buy the Lexus, you'll save big on repair and maintenance costs;----particularly if you plan to buy, and keep for the (longer) term. I've had both, including other German cars (Voltswagen); theres a reason you see more BMW /Voltswagen repair shops than Lexus/Toyota repair shops!
OT: Lexus or BMW
- Thread starter RGWhirly
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The G70 is less of a Hyundai than the ES, NX, RX, CT, GX and LX are Toyotas.
Note: the RX is more the size of the X5, but often gets compared to the X3 on the basis of pricing.
^ According to whom? You? lol
That's not what the auto industry thinks.
Aside from the Giulia, the 3 new (recent) models (not talking super/hypercars) that probably have gotten the most buzz from auto publications and auto enthusiasts have been the i30N/Veloster-N (just diff. packaging), the Kia Stinger and the Genesis G70.
And in most segments, the Hyundai (and/or Kia) offering is ranked higher than Toyota's in C/D's rankings.
About a decade ago, none other than Akio Toyoda (after he took over the reigns at Toyota) referred to Hyundai as being the biggest threat to the Japanese automaker.
That's not what the auto industry thinks.
Aside from the Giulia, the 3 new (recent) models (not talking super/hypercars) that probably have gotten the most buzz from auto publications and auto enthusiasts have been the i30N/Veloster-N (just diff. packaging), the Kia Stinger and the Genesis G70.
And in most segments, the Hyundai (and/or Kia) offering is ranked higher than Toyota's in C/D's rankings.
About a decade ago, none other than Akio Toyoda (after he took over the reigns at Toyota) referred to Hyundai as being the biggest threat to the Japanese automaker.
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Thanks for not taking the time to provide the basis for your abrupt opinion ** #cliffhanger #wasteofboardspace
Let's see....
- 6 recalls in less than 2 years of ownership
- Horrendous resale value
- Horrendous in the snow despite snow tires
Need anything else?
Look, if you want to buy a Hyundai or pay a premium for one (i.e. Genesis), be my guest. I'll be driving my Camry while you're in the shop, or sitting along the side of the road because your Sonata can't handle winter roads.
My Hyundai Equus is every bit the car that my Lexus LS 430 was. The new G90 (Equus replacement) is certainly competing with the big boys and Genesis vehicles deserve serious consideration.
Breaking news: premium/near-luxury sedans depreciate like pre-owned sanitary pads, with few exceptions..
resale trajectory on these cars are quite different than common CamCords... Genesis/Equus not my cuppatea, can’t blame them for rekindling the formula that made the original LS400 the icon that it has become... you made a solid choice with the Camry, but Hyundai/Kia is much different than they were even a decade ago...
In the Motor Trend comparison, the G90 (which is undergoing its facelift) bested the new LS 500.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/gen...vs-genesis-g90-33t-vs-lincoln-continental-30/
And speaking of the LS 500, Consumer Reports panned it - as it went too far away from what made the LS an excellent luxury cruiser (trying too hard to be sporty and not doing a good job of it).
Is that the best you can do? lol
Such anecdotes are pretty much worthless.
There a (former) Lexus/Toyota owners who b!tch about how crappy their last Lexus/Toyota was, but that doesn't take away from the fact that overall, Lexus/Toyota vehicles have been pretty reliable.
Not that they have been infallible as the GR V6 had issues (such as engine sludge) when it first came out, the rust prone frames on Toyota trucks and let's not forget, leading in the # of recalls for a # of years.
The latest is a class action suit for stinky/foul smelling HVAC units.
Now, a big part of the reason why Toyota/Lexus have fared well in reliability rankings is that they are SLOW as heck in updating their power-trains.
Until the a couple of years ago, Lexus was still selling the severely under-powered IS250 which got panned by everyone, including CR.
And that was replaced by a turbo-4 which isn't much better (slow compared to the competition), but Toyota/Lexus isn't interested in performance as much as keeping their reliability scores up (less boost = better reliability).
Honda and Acura have seen their reliability rankings tank the last couple of years as they have introduced a # of new power-train components and are still working out the kinks.
Speaking of Honda, the 3G Odyssey (2005-10, a very popular model) had 9 recalls within its first year, and the previous model was the one that had the prematurely imploding transmissions (which also affected other Honda and Acura models).
As for resale value, it's calculated from MSRP and not ATP (average transaction price), and usually can get a good deal off MSRP on a Hyundai so buyers get their savings up front.
Speaking of ATP, the Camry, Corolla and Yaris have among the lowest, if not the lowest ATP within their segments.
The previous gen Camry had a lower ATP than the Chrysler 200!
Being boring/bland beige-mobiles that they were, most buyers just wanted cheap, reliable transport and didn't want to opt for higher trims (and based on the popularity of things like the Camry dent registry - have to call into question their driving skills or lack thereof).
Consumer Reports has Genesis atop their Best Car Brand rankings, JD Power has Genesis atop their APEAL rankings and Auto Pacific has Genesis atop their luxury brand rankings (no - this doesn't mean that the G90 is better than the S Class, b/c it's not).
And speaking of AWD systems, the Santa Fe has a more sophisticated AWD system than ones that can be found in Toyota and Honda CUVs.
Think 3 mods on a very popular Lexus forum owning 2 top-spec ($50k+) Kia Stingers and a G90 says a lot.
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I was a MBZ driver until I got a Lexus. Now I have had 5. 2 RX, a LS 400, LS 460, and now a LS 500. No problems ever. Comfortable. Love them. Of course I still have my 1983 280SL with only 51,000 miles. Love the 5 speed stick. Had to have it converted when I brought It to Ca. from Germany, but it is fun to drive. But the Lexuses that I drive are more comfortable and much less upkeep.
Lol
You’re an idiot. Go buy your piece of shit Hyundai. Again....wake me up when they stop recalling their vehicles and they’re worth anything at trade-in.
People shouldn’t worry about resale value. If you buy a car you like you’re going to drive it for 8-10 years, and amortizing projected resale after that long a period is immaterial. The important thing IMHO is how much you will enjoy the car while you own it. Again, buy what you like. What looks the best to you, what handles and drives most to your liking, what comes with the best technology and safety and convenience features, what has the best sound system, what has the most comfortable seats and offers all the space you need? What Nav system is the most intuitive? What car do you think will look best in 5-10 years (look at old models of the cars you are considering)? And what makes your heart go pitter patter? It doesn’t all have to be about the money. It should also be about enjoyment. You don’t want to be sitting at the stop light looking across the lane at the car you wish you had bought - buy it now. My personal recommendation is to buy a BMW, Audi, or MBenz.
People may say otherwise but I believe 90% of the reason people buy luxury cars is to show off and project some type of status to the outside world.
Buying a Hyundai, regardless of model gives you zero in that regard. Spending that type of money on a Hyundai just seems insane to me, but to each his own.
I disagree totally.
Resale value is quite important--it takes quality and durability into account. Cars build resale value through good craftsmanship which in turn builds a brand following. There's a ton of Hyundais and Kias on the road today, but their resale value is still shit.
Again, my Sonata had 6 major recalls in 16-18 months of ownership. It was literally in the garage more often for recalls than oil changes. Add to that horrendous winter performance and an exploding starter that left me in a parking lot late at night, enough was enough even though I had a bumper:bumper warranty.
Unless the Camry gets recalled 6 times in the next 3-4 months, I'm going to come out way ahead.
Have Hyundai and Kia came a long way in terms of quality? Absolutely, but they needed to. Toyota has released their fair share of turds over the years, but their resale value is higher for a reason. Let's see where Hyundai and Kia values are in another 5 years, and also let's look for how many major recalls they have.
I'm the idiot? lol
You have nothing but your lame arse opinion based on your personal experience - which in the grand matter of things, means crap.
Meanwhile, what I have stated has the backing of the auto industry (from reviews to studies/data) including Toyoda Akio, himself.
Germany's Auto Bild does a long-term reliability study/ranking which is considered to be the most comprehensive in the industry.
They not only get feedback from owners, they look at TUV service records and even break down vehicles to check the quality of parts.
For 2017, Hyundai was ranked #1.
Over the past 7 years, Hyundai has been ranked #1 3 times and Kia once.
Since you have NOTHING, of course you resort to ad hominem attacks.
Only a dimwit like you would totally ignore what I had previously pointed out - that Toyota for a # of years led in recalls.
And Toyota didn't exactly have a great record w/ the IIHS off-set crash test.
Even when a model was all-new, Toyota would ask for a delay in testing (in order to make changes to the structural integrity up front) and even w/ the extra time and changes, they still failed to get the top score of good.
And sorry, don't own a Hyundai.
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Lexus is a fancy Toyota - and the Lexus flagship sedan (the LS) isn't even the fanciest sedan ToYoCo makes.
That would be the Toyota Century which goes for around $150k w/ the Century Royal (reserved for the Japanese royal family) running around half a mil.
B/c Americans like to be fooled by marketing hype - that's why the successor to the Equus is no longer a Hyundai, but a Genesis.
Over in Europe, Mercedes doesn't quite have the status it does here (don't get me wrong, Mercedes is very well respected as an auto-engineering firm).
The E Class is a popular taxi over there (Mercedes makes a taxi fleet special) and the Tri-star badge adorns a multitude of commercial trucks and vans, including sanitation trucks.
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If you don’t own a Hyundai you must own a Hyundai dealership. Why don’t you own one if they’re such great cars? Instead all you can do is look up opinions. If the cars are so great....where’s the resale value? Why did the Sonata have so many major recalls?
The Sonata compared to Camry isn’t a fair fight—the Hyundai is a piece of shit....and that’s coming from an owner of the car you are butthurt over realizing it’s trash. I don’t care about your statistics. If they produced such great cars the resale values would be comparable with the big boys. Those values are lagging far behind which speaks volumes about the quality and perception of Hyundai vehicles 5 years down the road.
I bought a Model 3 last month.
There is a reason that Tesla has the highest brand loyalty of any car manufacturer ever. Driving it feels like a you’ve been teleported into the future- my other cars instantly felt like slow, noisy relics.
Needless to say, I would strongly recommend test driving a Tesla before buying a German luxury sedan. All of the issues that you may THINK are issues with electric cars (range, supercharging, reliability) have largely been solved and the benefits that are unfamiliar (saving 80% on fuel costs, the convenience of home fueling vs gas stations, constantly adding new features through over-the-air upgrades, virtually no maintenance) significantly outweigh the drawbacks, in my opinion.
There is a reason that Tesla has the highest brand loyalty of any car manufacturer ever. Driving it feels like a you’ve been teleported into the future- my other cars instantly felt like slow, noisy relics.
Needless to say, I would strongly recommend test driving a Tesla before buying a German luxury sedan. All of the issues that you may THINK are issues with electric cars (range, supercharging, reliability) have largely been solved and the benefits that are unfamiliar (saving 80% on fuel costs, the convenience of home fueling vs gas stations, constantly adding new features through over-the-air upgrades, virtually no maintenance) significantly outweigh the drawbacks, in my opinion.
Have never had a BMW or Lexus but I did own a Hyundai Genesis (bought it the first year it came out against my better judgement). I've owned more than thirty cars in my lifetime and the Genesis was by far the best for quality, looks and value. It was thousands less than similarly equipped Lexus, BMW and Mercedes. That was about 8 years ago so I don't know how the Genesis has evolved, but it's worth a look.
Thanks for your inputs BringBackStoneys. Can we assume you got the Model 3 Performance model, with the longer range battery?
How long does it take to charge?
How does charging compare with home charging, vs perhaps an official Tesla charging station.
Are long distance trips pretty much out of the question, if the distance is over say 300 miles? How have you managed longer trips?
Anyone have inputs on the Model S Tesla, the high end offering?
We may consider a Tesla some day, however we are going to wait at least 5-10 more years.
I have the 310 mile long range battery but opted for the RWD because I was unsure how long it would take to get the AWD or Performance. Reading the Performance reviews, it may have been worth the wait. That said, the RWD is surprisingly quick and handles like an M5 - but you can’t beat the feel of instant torque.
Charging at home takes no more than 4 hours at 220v/40amps - same installation as a clothes drier. Tesla SuperChargers are 440v and require 15-40 minutes depending upon you route.
Mapping of the SuperChargers along your route, along with the availability of SuperCharging stalls, is directly integrated into the onboard GPS. So, as an example, the car will tell you that you will need to stop to charge for 25 minutes at the Richmond Virginia SuperCharger (which has 4 of 8 stalls currently open) to get from Philly to Raleigh NC - my longest trip to date. When you stop at the SuperCharger, it automatically recognizes your car and you pay automatically (typically $3-5) with your credit card on record with Tesla, kinda like Uber.
As a rule of thumb, it’s 2.5 hours driving alternating with 30-40 minutes SuperCharging on long road trips. So if you do Philly to Florida, it might add about 2 extra hours / 3 extra stops to your 18 hour trip, assuming you’re making 4 or 5 gas station pit stops. If you charge while grabbing meals or stay at hotels with overnight charging, then it’s a marginal difference.
I know that there are a lot of people who are fixated on Cannonball Run style road trips - trying to shave minutes off their annual beach trip. I am ok with trading an hour or two once a year for never having to visit a gas station or do an oil change the rest of the year.
I’ve driven the Model S - fantastic car. The 100D matches the performance of the elite supercars- but faster off the line.
Charging at home takes no more than 4 hours at 220v/40amps - same installation as a clothes drier. Tesla SuperChargers are 440v and require 15-40 minutes depending upon you route.
Mapping of the SuperChargers along your route, along with the availability of SuperCharging stalls, is directly integrated into the onboard GPS. So, as an example, the car will tell you that you will need to stop to charge for 25 minutes at the Richmond Virginia SuperCharger (which has 4 of 8 stalls currently open) to get from Philly to Raleigh NC - my longest trip to date. When you stop at the SuperCharger, it automatically recognizes your car and you pay automatically (typically $3-5) with your credit card on record with Tesla, kinda like Uber.
As a rule of thumb, it’s 2.5 hours driving alternating with 30-40 minutes SuperCharging on long road trips. So if you do Philly to Florida, it might add about 2 extra hours / 3 extra stops to your 18 hour trip, assuming you’re making 4 or 5 gas station pit stops. If you charge while grabbing meals or stay at hotels with overnight charging, then it’s a marginal difference.
I know that there are a lot of people who are fixated on Cannonball Run style road trips - trying to shave minutes off their annual beach trip. I am ok with trading an hour or two once a year for never having to visit a gas station or do an oil change the rest of the year.
I’ve driven the Model S - fantastic car. The 100D matches the performance of the elite supercars- but faster off the line.
May I ask why the wait? I was of the same mindset until I did the research and took a test drive...
A few follow ups regarding the batteries ...
What are the expected battery lives, the battery warranty and expected cost of replacements?
Battery life estimates are 300,000 miles but if you charge to 100% very frequently then it will degrade more quickly. Warranty is to 120,000 miles, which is awesome in my view. After the warranty expires, the cost for replacement is $6k.
Keep in mind, you will have saved about $12k on fuel expenses by the time the warranty expires. Plus no transmission to go bad, no timing belts, no catalytic converter...Model 3 has 20 moving parts. A traditional car gas engine has 2000.
Keep in mind, you will have saved about $12k on fuel expenses by the time the warranty expires. Plus no transmission to go bad, no timing belts, no catalytic converter...Model 3 has 20 moving parts. A traditional car gas engine has 2000.
the model 3 has way more than 20 parts in the thermal management system alone .... not sure where you are getting your numbers from
If you wait 5-10 years, there is a good chance you won't be buying an OG Tesla, maybe a FiatTesla or Tata Tesla
Point taken. That’s the drive train moving parts count from one of the early teardown videos.
The thermal management system has historically been one of the more complex subsystems on a Tesla, but the Model 3 TMS is substantially streamlined over the Model S or X.
Agree. The solar / energy side of the business is a dog and they’ll eventually have to sell.
LMAO!
So, owning a Hyundai dealership is what you get out of me saying I don't own a Hyundai?
Sorry, nein on that as well.
And if I did own a Hyundai dealership, driving a G80 Sport as a DD wouldn't be a bad thing (the G90 is too big).
As for resale values - general marketplace/population perceptions lags behind reality, and it can differ from market to market (why does H/K outsell Toyota in Europe? And esp, in Germany and the UK?).
And the worst models for resale are the German flagships, in particular the S Class.
But there's no denying that the S Class is the best mainstream lux, flagship sedan today.
And just b/c you think the Sonata is a PoS doesn't mean it's accurate.
https://www.autoguide.com/car-comparisons/2018-hyundai-sonata-vs-toyota-camry-comparison
And there's a brand new Sonata just around the corner.
Going back to the recall-thing, the Honda Odyssey has been the most desirable minivan.
And yet, the list of Odyssey recalls has been extensive.
While there are things that Tesla does well, there are also things it doesn't do well - such as assembling vehicles together and fit and finish.
Also, since so much of the R&D $$ was spent on the BEV powertrain, Tesla had to scrimp somewhere and that has been the interior.
The Germans, among other automakers, have a rash of BEVs hitting production.
For instance, Porsche has the Taycan CUV and the production version of the Mission E forthcoming.
The G80 has a significantly better ride and handling than the Genesis and a better interior as well.
The new G80 should be even better in those regards as it was developed to hit the autobahn and the Nurburgring, but still a luxo-cruiser and not as raucous as the smaller G70.
I don’t think the Sonata is a piece of shit....I know it’s a piece of shit because I drove and owned one, unlike you. I don’t care about European sales or cars. If you think a Sonata is so great go ahead and buy one. I’ll keep driving my Camry which is worlds better in every aspect. Including at trade in.
You sound like my grandmother worried so much about resale value. She still has her 1984 Buick LeSabre in her garage because they refused to give her what she wanted in trade in value. Did the same with a 2006 Chevy Silverado, but thanks to putting it on the internet we found someone willing to give much more. Resale value is all relative, once they look at the vehicle, drive it and see maintenance record they'll give what its worth. Plus as mentioned before it costs less to start so what you get in resale should be a percentage of the original cost, not just a fixed dollar amount. My wife's best friend drives a Sonata, going on 8 years now I think, no problems every, car's in great shape. They aren't worried about resale value as their kid is probably getting it in a few years (he's 14).
You guys get bent out of shape over the most trivial things.
Buy the car you like, for the reason you like. PennsyOracle, Katatonic, MassimoManca et al are not going to be sitting next to you, either praising or damning you as you drive down the road - so what the hell does it really matter what these guys think and say? It's your money, it's your decision.
Buy the car you like, for the reason you like. PennsyOracle, Katatonic, MassimoManca et al are not going to be sitting next to you, either praising or damning you as you drive down the road - so what the hell does it really matter what these guys think and say? It's your money, it's your decision.
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