OT: Looks like Lahaina (Maui) no longer exists

[GSPMax]

I don't know how you can fight a fire in 60 to 80 mph winds but word on the street is that people are not going to accept whatever is the final after-action report.

You can't. The approach in a wildland fire is to have firefighters on the ground flank the fire and have aerial retardant/water drops on the head of the fire and on the flanks ahead of those on the ground. This allows firefighters on the ground to construct containment lines.

Not sure why in an urban setting such as this, the approach would not be the same. It may be that aerial attacks could not be done because of visibility issues.

If indeed the fire was 100% contained in the morning, firefighters on the ground along with aerial support would have been able to work hot spots within the containment line. It would be critical to do this as red flag warning were or should have been in effect. If

It is possible for a contained fire to create a spot fire outside the containment line but there should have been teams looking for those.

I hope we get the details of how this was handled, in detail.

 

[PAstr]

The firefighting helicopters were not used due to high winds. Some reports suggest that the initial fire had been put out, but that winds brought down a power pole which sparked another fire.

The grassland where this fire started used to be irrigated sugarcane fields . Now it’s just dry scrub brush.

 

[GSPMax]

Some reports suggest that the initial fire had been put out, but that winds brought down a power pole which sparked another fire.

This makes sense if the original fire was truly 100% contained.

I am curious as to the type of building construction in the impacted areas as well as building density.

 

[PAstr]

Many of the homes were single wall construction. Basically, the piece of wood you see on the outside of the house is the same piece of wood you see on the inside. Termites are a big problem there, so many structures are pretty fragile. The ”downtown area was a bunch of 150 year old wooden, two story buildings that existed during the years when whaling was the big industry.

The Baldwin home was destroyed even though it was constructed of coral and lava rock. It had a wooden roof and wooden interior.
The Lahaina Shores condominimums appear to have been untouched. It’s the large white structure on the eastern end of Front St. is was built with concrete and (I believe) a tile roof. He foliage around it appears scorched, but it looks like the building survived.

Both the downtown and residential areas were very densely concentrated.

 

[Obliviax]

Many of the homes were single wall construction. Basically, the piece of wood you see on the outside of the house is the same piece of wood you see on the inside. Termites are a big problem there, so many structures are pretty fragile. The ”downtown area was a bunch of 150 year old wooden, two story buildings that existed during the years when whaling was the big industry.

The Baldwin home was destroyed even though it was constructed of coral and lava rock. It had a wooden roof and wooden interior.
The Lahaina Shores condominimums appear to have been untouched. It’s the large white structure on the eastern end of Front St. is was built with concrete and (I believe) a tile roof. He foliage around it appears scorched, but it looks like the building survived.

Both the downtown and residential areas were very densely concentrated.

great points. I recall being in Bora Bora and thinking the homes were shabby. I was later told "who needs homes?" They are really just a place to leave your stuff; no heating, AC, windows or insulation required. The employees of the resort were young kids, many from the US, where they just give you four walls, a small fridge and a microwave with a bed. Many locals simply had some metal walls tacked up to 2x4s. The idea was to store your stuff if there was a bad storm but otherwise, just let it blow away and rebuild it. Because Bora Bora is such a small island, there was virtually no crime. Everyone knew everyone and there was no place to go. So getting caught was virtually 100%.

 

[GSPMax]

Many of the homes were single wall construction. Basically, the piece of wood you see on the outside of the house is the same piece of wood you see on the inside. Termites are a big problem there, so many structures are pretty fragile. The ”downtown area was a bunch of 150 year old wooden, two story buildings that existed during the years when whaling was the big industry.

The Baldwin home was destroyed even though it was constructed of coral and lava rock. It had a wooden roof and wooden interior.
The Lahaina Shores condominimums appear to have been untouched. It’s the large white structure on the eastern end of Front St. is was built with concrete and (I believe) a tile roof. He foliage around it appears scorched, but it looks like the building survived.

Both the downtown and residential areas were very densely concentrated.

Sounds like residential construction in Hiroshima pre August 1945.

 

[91Joe95]

They didn't sound the alarm system.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/12/us/hawaii-emergency-warning-system-maui-wildfires/index.html

 

[PAstr]

With respect to he alarm system, they did send out text messag alerts, but most people didn’t receive them due to cel towers bein down due to power outages. The emergenc sirens didn’t sound. Speculation is that people would have interpreted them as a tsunami warning and headed towards the hills.

 

[Obliviax]

With respect to he alarm system, they did send out text messag alerts, but most people didn’t receive them due to cel towers bein down due to power outages. The emergenc sirens didn’t sound. Speculation is that people would have interpreted them as a tsunami warning and headed towards the hills.

Lots to be sorted out here. I don't envy the people that had to make those decisions. As Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan....until they get punched in the face." A lot of times, the plans and contingency plans don't effectively address the situation. I read that the fire traveled at 60 MPH with wind gusts being 80 mph at times. I mean, if you've been to Maui, there isn't a lot of space to cover so a fire moving that fast gave you a couple of minutes, if that, to react. So emergency services didn't have a lot of time to gather, address the issues, and react.

Sometimes, it is just a bad situation.

 

[lazydave841]

Developers after the land. People refuse to sell. Let's see who ends up with the land now.

Very sad for the people. Didn't they get a false "nuclear missile" warning text a few years ago?

 

[PAstr]

Regardless of who rebuilds, I sure hope the rule makers force the electric utilities to be put underground. Hawaiian Electric has been unreliable for decades and it’s largely due to the power lines being above ground. With a clean slate , they have a unique opportunity to get it right. Also, the powelines were an eyesore.

 

[lazydave841]

Regardless of who rebuilds, I sure hope the rule makers force the electric utilities to be put underground. Hawaiian Electric has been unreliable for decades and it’s largely due to the power lines being above ground. With a clean slate , they have a unique opportunity to get it right. Also, the powelines were an eyesore.

Interesting that you said that.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/14/investing/hawaiian-electric-maui-fires-lawsuit/index.html

Lawsuits pouring in. Stock down big.

 

[Obliviax]

Interesting that you said that.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/14/investing/hawaiian-electric-maui-fires-lawsuit/index.html

Lawsuits pouring in. Stock down big.

such a tough call. The other side of the coin is that if the power company shuts down power and somebody dies due to lack of electricity or the ability to communicate then they'll get a class action lawsuit claiming that they shut down power.

 

[PAstr]

They also need power to pump the water that feeds the fire hydrants. I just read a couple of reports that the hydrants went dry after the electricity went down. He same can be said about the text notification not being received due to power outages.

Tough call all around.

 

[Obliviax]

They also need power to pump the water that feeds the fire hydrants. I just read a couple of reports that the hydrants went dry after the electricity went down. He same can be said about the text notification not being received due to power outages.

Tough call all around.

Here is one for you.

On the heals of Katrina, I was in new orleans with a guy in charge of a large hospital. He was kind of a blowhard so I always took his stories with a grain of salt. But he recounted how they were taking patience on the edge of death out of the hospital when they knew Katrina was going to hit six hours before. He said he stayed and personally manned the generators to make sure those that had to stay had power for their medical treatments.

Anyway, he was showing me this new facility they built that would withstand 300 mph winds if they ever got hit again. Then he pulls out a laminated document from his wallet. He asked me if I ever got the "fast busy" signal when calling. Of course, I have. He said that in times of crises, phones are overwhelmed. This card had a 14-digit code he could use to get passed the fast busy and make calls. He stated that the fast busy was a way to shut down phone access to non-essential personnel so that essential personnel could communicate. Can you imagine being the one to make that decision and the consequences of shutting off the ability of people to communicate in a crisis?

I have no idea how true it is but he had the little sheet that looked like a driver's license and all of the instructions on how to get passed the fast busy were on it.

 

[The Song Remains the Same]

I have no doubt the media will work with the politicians to suppress uncomfortable information.

My guess is high winds knocked down power lines onto dry grasses and power company did not anticipate and have power shut off, similar to the PG&E debacle in Paradise, CA.

 

[The Song Remains the Same]

Interesting that you said that.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/14/investing/hawaiian-electric-maui-fires-lawsuit/index.html

Lawsuits pouring in. Stock down big.

But on cue the Governor is blaming climate change.....

 

[The Song Remains the Same]

Here is one for you.

On the heals of Katrina, I was in new orleans with a guy in charge of a large hospital. He was kind of a blowhard so I always took his stories with a grain of salt. But he recounted how they were taking patience on the edge of death out of the hospital when they knew Katrina was going to hit six hours before. He said he stayed and personally manned the generators to make sure those that had to stay had power for their medical treatments.

Anyway, he was showing me this new facility they built that would withstand 300 mph winds if they ever got hit again. Then he pulls out a laminated document from his wallet. He asked me if I ever got the "fast busy" signal when calling. Of course, I have. He said that in times of crises, phones are overwhelmed. This card had a 14-digit code he could use to get passed the fast busy and make calls. He stated that the fast busy was a way to shut down phone access to non-essential personnel so that essential personnel could communicate. Can you imagine being the one to make that decision and the consequences of shutting off the ability of people to communicate in a crisis?

I have no idea how true it is but he had the little sheet that looked like a driver's license and all of the instructions on how to get passed the fast busy were on it.

I worked for Ma Bell 40 years ago during the AT&T divestiture and I seem to recall what you say about fast busy as being accurate, while being too lazy to google and confirm it..

 

[The Song Remains the Same]

Many of the homes were single wall construction. Basically, the piece of wood you see on the outside of the house is the same piece of wood you see on the inside. Termites are a big problem there, so many structures are pretty fragile. The ”downtown area was a bunch of 150 year old wooden, two story buildings that existed during the years when whaling was the big industry.

The Baldwin home was destroyed even though it was constructed of coral and lava rock. It had a wooden roof and wooden interior.
The Lahaina Shores condominimums appear to have been untouched. It’s the large white structure on the eastern end of Front St. is was built with concrete and (I believe) a tile roof. He foliage around it appears scorched, but it looks like the building survived.

Both the downtown and residential areas were very densely concentrated.

Been to Maui 4 times, most recently last August, and truly was planning to book a 5th trip for upcoming Labor Day week the night of the fire. Very familiar with Lahaina and what you say is true, those densely located old fragile wood buildings were kindling. Add 60+ mph winds and you have an epically surreal conflagration .In the attached Front Street video, I am doubting that all of the people seen wandering the street survived, as this is the main block west of the Banyan tree and all of these shops and restaurants are ash now. These are very informative videos with the bottom one dealing with root causes..... https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:1bfff499,vid:K2PVTkkYgGc

 

[PAstr]

The man who shot he Front street video barely escaped. He shot the video while leaving. His home is right about where you see the flames. Apparently he owned an antique poster shop on Front street along with three homes. The people IN the video don’t seem even interested in fleeing.

 

[91Joe95]

But on cue the Governor is blaming climate change.....

It's what they do.

 

[91Joe95]

Developers after the land. People refuse to sell. Let's see who ends up with the land now.

 

[Ian]

And the Fed response is slow... its been a week and with all of the resources at Pearl Harbor. Joe sends everyone $700.

 

[Obliviax]

But on cue the Governor is blaming climate change.....

 

[81b&w]

I just never thought of a fire, and Hawaii in an event like this unless it was Volcano related

 

[RickinDayton]

You can't. The approach in a wildland fire is to have firefighters on the ground flank the fire and have aerial retardant/water drops on the head of the fire and on the flanks ahead of those on the ground. This allows firefighters on the ground to construct containment lines.

Not sure why in an urban setting such as this, the approach would not be the same. It may be that aerial attacks could not be done because of visibility issues.

If indeed the fire was 100% contained in the morning, firefighters on the ground along with aerial support would have been able to work hot spots within the containment line. It would be critical to do this as red flag warning were or should have been in effect. If

It is possible for a contained fire to create a spot fire outside the containment line but there should have been teams looking for those.

I hope we get the details of how this was handled, in detail.

Not only the visibility for aircraft, it could also have been the strong sustained winds.

 

[RickinDayton]

Crazy.

due to a wild fire with high winds from being on the outskirts of a hurricane combined to burn most of it to the ground. Really beautiful place and sad that it is devastated.

View embedded media

Pompeiiesque in my estimation. Hearing reports that once power lines broke and fell, the strong winds spread the fire so rapidly people had no time to flee to safety as so many were surrounded and cut off from an escape. Now thousands unaccounted for and they believe the heat was so intense that many bodies were either completely incinerated or will be unidentifiable. Looking @ the devastation, I was thinking about the possibility of even dental records in offices being destroyed in the fire which would further complicate ID of victims. Tragic.

 

[Obliviax]

Pompeiiesque in my estimation. Hearing reports that once power lines broke and fell, the strong winds spread the fire so rapidly people had no time to flee to safety as so many were surrounded and cut off from an escape. Now thousands unaccounted for and they believe the heat was so intense that many bodies were either completely incinerated or will be unidentifiable. Looking @ the devastation, I was thinking about the possibility of even dental records in offices being destroyed in the fire which would further complicate ID of victims. Tragic.

I grew up on a farm. At age 14 our old wood been burned down. We had a giant pig nursing and must have hit a heat lamp out in place for her newborn. There was literally nothing but fine ash when it was over. Of this 500 lb pig, there was nothing left. Anything in the barn, wood, metal, plastic, was simply gone.

 

[GSPMax]

With climate change priorities like this, expect more catastrophic events caused by climate change priorities.

"WSJ: Hawaiian Electric Focused on Climate Change, Neglected Wildfire Risk"​

"The company had plans to spend nearly $200 million on wildfire mitigation measures on Maui, the Journal reported, but instead had spent less than $245,000. The wildfire plan was stalled by bureaucracy; in the interim, the company focused on climate goals."

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ed-on-climate-change-neglected-wildfire-risk/

 

[Online Persona]

With climate change priorities like this, expect more catastrophic events caused by climate change priorities.

"WSJ: Hawaiian Electric Focused on Climate Change, Neglected Wildfire Risk"​

"The company had plans to spend nearly $200 million on wildfire mitigation measures on Maui, the Journal reported, but instead had spent less than $245,000. The wildfire plan was stalled by bureaucracy; in the interim, the company focused on climate goals."

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ed-on-climate-change-neglected-wildfire-risk/

Nothing should come before safety.

 

[PAstr]

Maui’s Emergency Management Chief resigns due to health reasons…….

 

[Online Persona]

Maui’s Emergency Management Chief resigns due to health reasons…….

Needs to be investigated

 

[junior1]

Needs to be investigated

From information coming out now, it appears as if there is plenty of "blame" to go around.....major emphasis by the state government for investment in green energy, Electric company needed upgrades to the system, couldn't get rate hikes to pay for them approved by the bueacracy, needed the non indiginous grasses cut by the government, but didn't get that done, when the fire started authorities asked for water but took 5 hours to get approval and by that time fire had already crossed where the "turn on" apparatus was...no emergency alert system.

As usual, it appears as if the first reactions are not the totally correct ones. I would't be surprised if more information comes out.

 

[RickinDayton]

I grew up on a farm. At age 14 our old wood been burned down. We had a giant pig nursing and must have hit a heat lamp out in place for her newborn. There was literally nothing but fine ash when it was over. Of this 500 lb pig, there was nothing left. Anything in the barn, wood, metal, plastic, was simply gone.

Wow.

 

[PAstr]

That was my reaction. There are still 1100+ people missing. If a 500# hog can be reduced to ash, I assume the same can happen to a human. Pretty gruesome and sad to think about. To make matters worse, many of the victims will be elderly and children. School was canceled due to win and intermittent power.

 

[GSPMax]

I grew up on a farm. At age 14 our old wood been burned down. We had a giant pig nursing and must have hit a heat lamp out in place for her newborn. There was literally nothing but fine ash when it was over. Of this 500 lb pig, there was nothing left. Anything in the barn, wood, metal, plastic, was simply gone.

Barn fires can be the worst structure type fires. I remember as a kid being able to see light from a barn fire about 5 miles away.

 

[PAstr]

These structures were old, wooden, termite consumed buildings. The fire was fed by 80 mph winds. Based on what got melted during the whole mess, I’m thinking the fire got pretty hot.

 

[SLUPSU]

These structures were old, wooden, termite consumed buildings. The fire was fed by 80 mph winds. Based on what got melted during the whole mess, I’m thinking the fire got pretty hot.

I was trying to guesstimate how many of the "single wall" homes were in Lihiana, as they are basically just a structure constructed of tinder (no brick, masonry, insulation or drywall) and many are actually elevated for improved cooling. I couldn't find any definitive numbers but my understanding is that construction was standard through the 70's, so my guess is as many as half of the homes there were built in that way. I wouldn't be surprised if they burned to the ground in a matter of a few minutes.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I was trying to guesstimate how many of the "single wall" homes were in Lihiana, as they are basically just a structure constructed of tinder (no brick, masonry, insulation or drywall) and many are actually elevated for improved cooling. I couldn't find any definitive numbers but my understanding is that construction was standard through the 70's, so my guess is as many as half of the homes there were built in that way. I wouldn't be surprised if they burned to the ground in a matter of a few minutes.

I was in Lahaina in April. Thought it was pretty boring. Spent about 90 minutes or so wandering around near the Banyan tree and side streets and even that was probably too long. Apart from overgrown lots and yards with a lot of junk in them, what struck me outside the compact tourist core was how tight the streets were in some areas. Once fire got to that town, I’m not surprised it raced through.

 

[pennstatepelly]

I was trying to guesstimate how many of the "single wall" homes were in Lihiana, as they are basically just a structure constructed of tinder (no brick, masonry, insulation or drywall) and many are actually elevated for improved cooling. I couldn't find any definitive numbers but my understanding is that construction was standard through the 70's, so my guess is as many as half of the homes there were built in that way. I wouldn't be surprised if they burned to the ground in a matter of a few minutes.

Yep. Pretty much a prebuilt fire starter box.