OT: U.S. Open
- Thread starter mlv5000
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There it is, DJ had a 5-Iron in....easily hit the best shots of the day on both 17 and 18. This is likely going into a playoff, but by all rights DJ far outplayed Speith today and the only reason Speith ended up tied is these greens suck and don't roll on a true line. How many holes did DJ have it inside 10 feet for birdie or eagle today??? How many times inside 8 feet??? Shot for shot, DJ played way better than Speith and Speith benefited greatly from this courses greens neutralizing great shots with its crazy, inconsistent and unpredictable greens just as Horschel stated in his interview.
He was too aggressive on the first putt - these crap greens require that you attempt to lag and die putts into the hole (e.g., "hit it and hope" and try to get speed correct), because you are only hurting yourself by actually trying to make the eagle because 4-foot come-backers are a complete crap-shot on this course!
Agree he needed to get it to the hole and maybe six inches past. Especially with these greens. Otherwise, he had a very good chance tomorrow.
No, they should have rebuilt the ones they didn't after the amateur and get rid of the Poa. If they were fescue like the two they rebuild they wouldn't have had any issues with putting from inside 10 feet.
As a perfect example, take a look at how Speith played his Eagle putt on 18 - he did not putt it aggressively at all, he played for the tap in birdie which is what this course greens promote because 4 and 5 foot comebackers are a crapshoot....he hit a "fader" up to the hole looking for a tap in birdie. DJ clearly tried to at least make the Eagle for the win and that's what burned him. This courses greens are so bad, inconsistent and unpredictable he should have played for the tie and hit a lag putt on his first putt. The course sucks and the courses' greens neutralizes great shots....I hope they never play another major, let alone a US Open Championship, at this course ever again - it is not a "great" or "fair" course meant to test the best golfer.
The statistics are incredible. I'm looking for WHY Johnson did not win. T10 in driving accuracy. T3 in distance. 18 birdies - T1. T5 in putting. There is no reason at all why he didn't win by five shots. And I don't even like the guy - not even a little bit.
The guy did everything to win except what he needed to do. I have never seen anything like it. He'll take this to his grave. To his effin' grave.
For us guys who like the numbers: http://www.usopen.com/en_US/scoring/stats/putts.html
The guy did everything to win except what he needed to do. I have never seen anything like it. He'll take this to his grave. To his effin' grave.
For us guys who like the numbers: http://www.usopen.com/en_US/scoring/stats/putts.html
No doubt, real shame that the US Open used a course set up that rewarded the guy who hit the crappier shots on 18 and then played ultra-conservatively 2-Putt birdie than even try to make the eagle.....AND penalized the guy who hit two incredible shots and then at least had the stones to give the eagle a chance for the win. Horschel had it correct in his interview -- the only thing these greens served to do was neutralize incredible shot-making in favor of mediocrity.
Reading thru all of these posts, Bushwood, are you saying you didn't like the greens?
This isn't the way a major should work. The USGA is constantly and consistently on edge with their setups. Horschel said last week in Memphis that when he saw the greens back in May, he was afraid that the USGA might speed them up or make it borderline unfair. I asked him if he was referring to Shinnecock from '04 and he didn't quite agree with me but said it could be close. Yes, the entire field had to deal with it and the person who handled it best would do well but you should go out and win a major, not leave it to chance of plinko-like greens.
This isn't the way a major should work. The USGA is constantly and consistently on edge with their setups. Horschel said last week in Memphis that when he saw the greens back in May, he was afraid that the USGA might speed them up or make it borderline unfair. I asked him if he was referring to Shinnecock from '04 and he didn't quite agree with me but said it could be close. Yes, the entire field had to deal with it and the person who handled it best would do well but you should go out and win a major, not leave it to chance of plinko-like greens.
She did set the record for the shortest skirt in a non-porn-related interview though.
Is that putting stat just avg putts per hole? Or is it the strokes gained putting measure? The latter being far more valuable a metric, the former much more circumstantial
This was just posted on ESPN (posted about 20 min ago at 10:40 pm just after tourney ended - Poulter said he would wait until tourney over before speaking... Cleary was disgusted with the condition of the greens for any pro tournament, let alone the US Open. Basically said greens were a complete joke and a mess.):
Ian Poulter, Billy Horschel rip USGA for condition of Chambers Bay greens
Here are some choice lines from the article:
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"It is disgraceful that the @USGA hasn't apologized about the greens,'' he wrote. "They simply have said 'we are thrilled the course condition this week.' It wasn't a bad golf course, In fact it played well and was playable.
"What wasn't playable were the green surfaces. If this was a regular PGA tour event lots of players would have withdrawn and gone home on Wednesday, but players won't do that for a major. They were simply the worst most disgraceful surface I have ever seen on any tour in all the years I have played. The US Open deserves better than that.''
Poulter, an Englishman who criticized the course in April before seeing it, had vowed to not saying anything about it until after he finished the tournament. He posted an unflattering photo of the greens and wrote 328 words.
He wasn't alone in criticizing the greens, a common theme for most of the week.
"I think a lot of the players, and I'm one of them, have lost some respect for the USGA and this championship this year for the greens,'' he said. "And not only the greens. One of the biggest issues I have is for the fans... the viewing is awful... when you're not able to get up close and watch championship caliber players play a golf course, it's disappointing.''
Billy Horschel shot 67 on Sunday but felt it could have been much better.
"It's just a very disappointing week to be here,'' said Horschel, the reigning FedEx Cup champion. "When you come to a championship tournament, obviously you are going to find out who the best player is, but when you neglect one of the skills or take away one of the skills from a player, and that be putting... I'm a really good putter and I have not had a great week on the greens.
"And it's not due to the fact that my stroke is off or my speed is off. I've hit a lot of really good putts that have bounced all over the world. So it's just frustrating. I played awesome golf today. I played my tail off to shoot 3 under par. And I really felt like I should have shot 6, 7 or 8 under, but I wasn't able to due to the fact that some of the putts I hit just hit some really bad spots on the greens and got off line and didn't go in.''
Horschel said he was at Chambers Bay six weeks ago, and love the setting, comparing it to Pebble Beach and Royal County Down.
"It's just been a disappointing week with the way the greens are,'' he said.
Chris Kirk also was among the bevy of players to voice frustration after carding a 10 on the par-4 opening hole Sunday.
Chris KirkVerified account @Chris_Kirk_ The U.S. Open is a great tournament with incredible history. The @usga should be ashamed of what they did to it this week.
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Average. I don't understand the strokes gained stat. But I would guess that when you're T5 in putting, you gained about as many as can be gained.
Chris Kirk also was among the bevy of players to voice frustration after carding a 10 on the par-4 opening hole Sunday.
The U.S. Open is a great tournament with incredible history. The @usga should be ashamed of what they did to it this week.
Bushwood - I'm not trying to start a fight. I never want to see another US Open out there. I'll listen to what Horschel has to say, but Poulter has never won jack (although he's a fantastic Ryder Cupper; what Euro isn't?) and he is one of the biggest whiners out there.
As for Chris Kirk - dude took a TEN. Who the hell is Chris Kirk? Chris Kirk finished DEAD LAST and shot 80-78 on the weekend. Chris Kirk ought to be ashamed of what he did to the US Open.
I'm no fan of the course, but I believe Bush needs to pay a visit to Gil Morgan. The putt Speith stroked on 16 was pure. No lucky bounce to put it back on line. It was a big bender and he put a perfect stroke on it. As for the shots into the 18th green, how can you use the term "crappier" to describe the fairway wood Speith hit. He and his caddy discussed using the "backboard" before the swing. Executed exactly as planned and it won him the US Open. And how the heck is an eagle putt that ends hole high but maybe two inches wide "ultra conservative?" Perfect speed, missed it left by two inches and you're claiming it was a lag that he wasn't trying to make? Drive it for show and putt it for dough. They were even at the start of the day. Played the same course and the best man won. DJ gagged twice. Don't blame the friggin' course.
Yes, exactly. US Open greens should: be fast, be firm such that they only hold a shot hit from the fairway with spin, be smooth such that they roll "pure" and "true", etc... All of these things reward great shots because fast greens are much easier from 10 feet in below the hole because all you need to do is get them on the right line and if they "roll true" they go in. They only thing those joke greens at Chambers Bay served to do was neutralize the best shots and make all approach shots the same (e.g., "mediocre"). They also bring luck and bad luck into 4 and 5 footers as you saw all day today which essentially means everybody loses their confidence and stop taking an aggressive line instead opting to die the ball into the hole (e.g., select the speed that will leave it within tap-in range of the hole) and picking the corresponding line (e.g., tap it and hope you don't get a bad bounce.).
Just come out and say it Bush - you don't like Spieth. The course sucked but your boy choked down the stretch. He missed some putts you could have made on a gravel driveway.
Give it a rest.
I've always thought DJ got hosed at Whistling Straits.....after all, spectators were standing in the "bunker" with him, so why would ANYONE think it was anything other than a waste area? I think the USGA blew that big-time even though players were warned in writing before the tournament started about how those areas were to be played. No crowd control there whatsoever.
But DJ hosed himself today on 18. NO PRO.....ON ANY GREEN.....should three putt in that situation from that distance. Unfortunately he'll have the choker collar hanging around his neck for a long time. You drive for show and you putt for dough......only this time it's Homer Simpson on the call: "Doh!"
Sad.....watching him duel Spieth tomorrow could have been historic.
But DJ hosed himself today on 18. NO PRO.....ON ANY GREEN.....should three putt in that situation from that distance. Unfortunately he'll have the choker collar hanging around his neck for a long time. You drive for show and you putt for dough......only this time it's Homer Simpson on the call: "Doh!"
Sad.....watching him duel Spieth tomorrow could have been historic.
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Sad but true. The ball didn't take any funny bounces and didn't have any funky breaks. Johnson just missed a putt he's made at least 10,000 times. Only this time it was to get into a playoff for a national championship.
I was there for the 1994 playoff with Els, Monty and Loren Roberts. After 18, Monty was eliminated, Els and Roberts go to 10 for sudden death. Two pars, then Els got the W coming up the hill on 11. Roberts had a long one to tie but could not knock it down. What a day - terrific sports memory!
HERE's exactly why he didn't win:
T3 in distance / T10 in accuracy, great great numbers .....but only T30 in greens in regulation, a pretty pathetic number considering his driving numbers.
And, thusly, the T5 in putting is easily explained because he missed so many greens, he was getting opportunities to chip it close.
Check this out, this train-wreck in progress was known to the USGA - see the link below and check out the date, 3/31/2015:
For Chambers Bay officials, more grass needed for green complexes
Given all the great venues all over this country and in every region of the country, it is simply disgraceful that the USGA unnecessarily rolled the dice like this on a course that clearly never should have been selected or added to the US Open Rotation.
Dude. I get that you don't like the greens, but the criticism of the greens (from everyone) is a little over the top. DJ was pushing his puts all day long. Norman and the other pros commentating on this said as much, repeatedly. DJ would not have been making putts anywhere, including Oakmont. Spieth played in the same conditions, and he putted much more consistently. I also think nerves had something to do with it. It WAS the U.S, Open, after all.
That being said, man, can DJ smoke the ball. That drive on 18 was incredible. As was the five iron. But so was Speith's fairway wood into the 18th green. BTW, when was the last time you saw a pro stripe it all day (i.e., Grace), and then slice a tee shot out of bounds right near the finish? Just incredible.
That was a bad course, stop trying to defend it. Would be fine for a typical non major event, but in no way should that course have ever hosted a major. There was zero excitement because the fans could get nowhere near the action. The course itself is really, really ugly. The greens were awful, I do not care what type of grass they had or how they should have played or that all the players had to play them, it was not fun golf when guys have almost no chance of making a long putt as the greens are impossible to read because they are so bumpy. It was USGA politics that got this course into the US Open and I hope they get skewered by the press and players.
And what was with all the temporary buildings and housing everywhere. It was like there was no clubhouse for this course. It looked like a construction site or trailer park when the blimp shot the overhead.
And what was with all the temporary buildings and housing everywhere. It was like there was no clubhouse for this course. It looked like a construction site or trailer park when the blimp shot the overhead.
Well, I say it's a circumstantial stat in the exact sense that Illinois noted. Miss a green, chip to 2 feet, technically that's a 1 putt. DJs T5 putting was 123 total putts (1.71), Spieth's was T19 was 126 putts (1.75).
A way to normalize, mitigating scrambling stats, is looking at Putts per GIR (available on PGA Tour site), which had Spieth at 1.855 (T23) and DJ at 1.784 (T8).
But then the real kicker is the Strokes Gained: Putting stat, which essentially benchmarks every player for every hole and how many putts it takes to finish out. So if it takes the field an average of 1.75 putts to hole out and you 1 putt, you gain .75 putts on the field, if you 3 putt, you lose 1.25. Aggregate that value and it shows how you perform against your peers.
I can't find US Open stats as of yet, but cumulatively (including the U.S. Open), DJ sits at 121 in this stat, going -.066 against the field. Noting as well that he ranks #2 overall in putting average at 1.714 (http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.30925.dustin-johnson.html/statistics). Spieth is at .504, ranking 19th.
TL;DR: DJ is an average putter historically who made a brain fart on 18.
There is no clubhouse, nor cart paths. It's a walking only public course. There's a small restaurant and a pro shop, everything else was temp'ed for this weekend.
A couple of thoughts come into mind when I think of the US Open this past weekend
1. When one of the players was putting on Saturday, a train went by. Let's think about this for a second - the gallery, other players, marshalls, and any other person near the green stops what they are doing, and keeps quiet while a golfer is putting - especially in a major. But, the local freight train goes by without so much as slowing down. Within 100 yards of the green.
I have had opportunity to deal with railroads during the course of my career, and one thing they all have in common - it takes an Act of Supreme Order to stop or slow down the train's schedule. I guess the golfer putting (forget who it was) should be happy the engineer did not blow the horn when he was putting.
2. On Saturday, a nearby structure caught on fire. It was in the background of another green where someone was putting. Watching the golfer over his ball to putt, and then seeing the black cloud of smoke in the background reminded me of one of the last scenes in "Caddyshack" where everyone's waiting on Danny Noonan's putt to drop while Carl Spackler is blowing up the course to kill the gopher.
I watched the final two groups play the last couple of holes. It was great golf. But, the issues with the course - not the least of which is it's location next to an active rail line, and no trees providing any sense of privacy or relief from noise, coupled with the overall poor shape of the course, odd, placement of the gallery, and the unfortunate fire to the structure in the background, make me think that the USGA shall receive some very severe criticism of the selection of Chambers Bay as a venue for the US Open. The touring pros, the gallery, the TV viewers - all deserved better.
1. When one of the players was putting on Saturday, a train went by. Let's think about this for a second - the gallery, other players, marshalls, and any other person near the green stops what they are doing, and keeps quiet while a golfer is putting - especially in a major. But, the local freight train goes by without so much as slowing down. Within 100 yards of the green.
I have had opportunity to deal with railroads during the course of my career, and one thing they all have in common - it takes an Act of Supreme Order to stop or slow down the train's schedule. I guess the golfer putting (forget who it was) should be happy the engineer did not blow the horn when he was putting.
2. On Saturday, a nearby structure caught on fire. It was in the background of another green where someone was putting. Watching the golfer over his ball to putt, and then seeing the black cloud of smoke in the background reminded me of one of the last scenes in "Caddyshack" where everyone's waiting on Danny Noonan's putt to drop while Carl Spackler is blowing up the course to kill the gopher.
I watched the final two groups play the last couple of holes. It was great golf. But, the issues with the course - not the least of which is it's location next to an active rail line, and no trees providing any sense of privacy or relief from noise, coupled with the overall poor shape of the course, odd, placement of the gallery, and the unfortunate fire to the structure in the background, make me think that the USGA shall receive some very severe criticism of the selection of Chambers Bay as a venue for the US Open. The touring pros, the gallery, the TV viewers - all deserved better.
Excellent and thanks! An explanation I can understand! Makes 100% sense. If you're minus 66-thousandths ove the year, it doesn't seem like much. Then again Johnson only lost by one.
Super-duper high end public courses can still have nice clubhouses. The local higher end public course near my house has a very nice clubhouse, it is what draws people to the facility. My opinion is that this course has some serious, serious financial issues and is losing a ton of money. If they were making good money 8 years in, they would have a much nicer looking facility.
Even mid level or low level public courses have nice clubhouses, because the course needs the money from wedding receptions and other events to help them financially.
Public in the sense of owned by the municipality, not just as in open-to-the. County purchased the land for $33 million, $21 million to build the course, how much more would/should the taxpayers be willing to shoulder?
That said, you are not wrong that it's a heavy weight around the County's neck. Interesting read here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/07/1099530/chambers-bay-soaks-up-money-golf.html
Losing about a million a year with about $23 million in loans already owed, wonder if they wait for the Fox revenue to come in, pay it off, then sell it to one of the Troon/Kempers of the world.
That said, you are not wrong that it's a heavy weight around the County's neck. Interesting read here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/07/1099530/chambers-bay-soaks-up-money-golf.html
Losing about a million a year with about $23 million in loans already owed, wonder if they wait for the Fox revenue to come in, pay it off, then sell it to one of the Troon/Kempers of the world.
What a sad thread this is. Reminds me of the 'Name on the Jerseys' threads- a bunch of old men complaining about change
It was a great tournament, despite what Horschel and Poulter think and its a shame the US Open wont return because of a bunch of bitching
It was a great tournament, despite what Horschel and Poulter think and its a shame the US Open wont return because of a bunch of bitching
if you think that was a great US Open, then you obviously do not watch much golf and have not seen a whole lot of US Opens.
