Penn State golf course just held USGA 4-ball qualifier and honestly the course was in terrible shape. Players were suprised how poor it was given PSU has one of the best agronomy programs in the country. Anyone know why ? Or what happened to the course condition?
Penn State Golf Courses
- Thread starter indoorgolf
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Sandy needs to hire a couple more assistant athletic directors to better manage the courses.
Sandy will propose a plan to re-do the courses w/ synthetic turf. Call me Sandy!
I have played those courses a number of times over the years and more often than not, they were always in "poor" condition.
the courses are always in marginal shape at best. Our turf management group is not involved with their upkeep and care. My understanding different budgets and priorities.
the new blue course layout is improvement but the lack of care and maintenace is an embarrassment. Go to OSU,Purdue,Indiana and see the courses they play on. We should have the premier conditioned course in the Big Ten given our internal capabilities. It truely is sad.
They should hire athletic department staff to come up with a replace your divot campaign. Perhaps a clubhouse seminar offering free chili.
I never thought the conditions were very good. Those courses (once they got rid of the executive course) are about access for students IMO.
In general the push to make them some sort of elite course is mistaken.
LdN
This many responses in and nobody has blamed Jay yet? Seems like we may have moved on.
I agree with this. Given our turf management reputation, the courses are a disgrace. Of course, the best agronomists in the world can't make a golf course nice without water, chemicals, manpower and the necessary operating budget. The courses do not have many lakes so all of the water must come from the residential system which is quite expensive (relatively speaking). Quite simply, the money is not there.
Most colleges have courses for their "students". Their conditions vary but many "The Scarlet & Gray"; "Yale" are classic courses. Basically, you get what you pay for. My understanding when they were preparing to do the Blue Course, Arnold Palmer offered to do a signature course and waive his fee. Apparently that was too expensive for our non-golfing administration. I can't verify it though. Also, spoke with Matt Bahr quite a few years ago, and he and Chris wanted to build a course near the Penn Stater on University land. It's not there so I guess that didn't go well. My recollection Spanier was President at the time for both though I don't know if he was involved with any of the decisions.
The Superintendent at PSU does not utilize the university assets that he could have access to.
There is a total disconnect between the turf people at the university and the Super at the Blue/White courses. I can't say who is to blame but I do know that the 2 year Golf Course Turfgrass Management Program always do a team building group project and they do not do one at Penn State.
There is a total disconnect between the turf people at the university and the Super at the Blue/White courses. I can't say who is to blame but I do know that the 2 year Golf Course Turfgrass Management Program always do a team building group project and they do not do one at Penn State.
Thanks for clarifying. Even so, this water comes at a cost that is higher than if it came from a lake on the course. I belonged to a club that built a third lake in the woods off the actual course just to hold water for irrigation. It paid for itself in 3 years.
Ziggy, did you every make it out to Palm Springs? I remember you were planning a trip to Cimarron.
I can help answer some questions as I was an employee there during school and have tight relationships with the people there, both pro shop and maintenance.
One of the biggest issues is labor. Between affordable healthcare act and union regulations it is extremely difficult for the courses to have enough employees and they often time really depend on students who are unpredictable. Probably as I was at that age. They don't always show up, when they do at pre - dawn hours you can't be sure what kind of work you might get from them. It is hard to find people to work for the $ and hours that the golf courses can offer. It is a major handicap.
Budget for chemicals is also a tough deal. They spray a lot of their areas curatively vs preventatively. Preventative spraying is much more expensive. This summer a rye grass disease hit the area hard and it took out a lot of fairways that were rye quickly. It wasn't just Penn state, mountain view and others in the PA area had issues. This disease was the reason a lot of courses went bent in the early 2000s. It hasn't really made it to central PA much but Philly has had some issues over the years. It hits fast as hard and when not covered preventatively it takes a lot of turf fast.
Irrigation. Well this is the joke of the area. The system is ancient, museum like. Half the course doesn't even have sprinklers and it takes guys putting sprinklers in a hookup to get water there. When you don't have the man power as stated a lot of the golf course can't be watered. It is truest form of manual irrigation and to water it takes people and time. Also having to water areas like fairways in play. At least half of the systems is from 1970s and beyond. They have leaks almost weekly which causes the system to have to be shut down and fixed for days at a time sometimes. Old pipe breaks for no reason
The management team is really good and they actually do some amazing things with the incredible limitations. It is a situation that is a nightmare to operate. Nobody feels as frustrated as they do. They have a ton of experience and have impressive resumes. Just too many limitations, obstacles and shortcomings to overcome without proper weather and manpower. There is a lot of potential, especially under them but they need more stuff going for them.
One of the biggest issues is labor. Between affordable healthcare act and union regulations it is extremely difficult for the courses to have enough employees and they often time really depend on students who are unpredictable. Probably as I was at that age. They don't always show up, when they do at pre - dawn hours you can't be sure what kind of work you might get from them. It is hard to find people to work for the $ and hours that the golf courses can offer. It is a major handicap.
Budget for chemicals is also a tough deal. They spray a lot of their areas curatively vs preventatively. Preventative spraying is much more expensive. This summer a rye grass disease hit the area hard and it took out a lot of fairways that were rye quickly. It wasn't just Penn state, mountain view and others in the PA area had issues. This disease was the reason a lot of courses went bent in the early 2000s. It hasn't really made it to central PA much but Philly has had some issues over the years. It hits fast as hard and when not covered preventatively it takes a lot of turf fast.
Irrigation. Well this is the joke of the area. The system is ancient, museum like. Half the course doesn't even have sprinklers and it takes guys putting sprinklers in a hookup to get water there. When you don't have the man power as stated a lot of the golf course can't be watered. It is truest form of manual irrigation and to water it takes people and time. Also having to water areas like fairways in play. At least half of the systems is from 1970s and beyond. They have leaks almost weekly which causes the system to have to be shut down and fixed for days at a time sometimes. Old pipe breaks for no reason
The management team is really good and they actually do some amazing things with the incredible limitations. It is a situation that is a nightmare to operate. Nobody feels as frustrated as they do. They have a ton of experience and have impressive resumes. Just too many limitations, obstacles and shortcomings to overcome without proper weather and manpower. There is a lot of potential, especially under them but they need more stuff going for them.
There is a small union crew that is full time. Last I heard it was 4 people which includes mechanic
What turf says is true. Currently the big issue that has the courses trashed right now are grubs. Between the groundhogs and other varmits on the course they have destroyed areas digging for the grubs.
The real crime is that they don't regularly groom bunkers and mow tees. Every mom and pop muni can take care of tees, greens and bunkers.
The real crime is that they don't regularly groom bunkers and mow tees. Every mom and pop muni can take care of tees, greens and bunkers.
Grubs are an issue but not nearly the biggest. There is some area on a couple fairways but most of the damage on fairways is disease or poor irrigation. I just asked and both courses were treated for grubs, on a summer that lasted as long and had as much stress as we have seen in a long time with temperature, humidity and lack of rain fall, things like this and crabgrass will break thru even if treated.
Your right on bunkers and tees and that is an issue but I was told they rarely have enough people to get by. Sometimes just enough to change pins and now greens. I have talked to them about labor and it is unreal what they have to deal with. Until that gets fixed, it will be an uphill climb. It is a extremely tough situation.
Another major issue is aerification. Nobody likes it but it is necessary. Big time. They do greens once a year and that is it. Most nice courses do greens twice a year and fwys and tees. Not sure when last time they did fwys and they pick a tee off here and there if they have people. If I had enough time to discuss the labor you would be blown away.
There is reason to believe this can improve, they can move this course from the 70s and update its skeleton. Until then people have no idea what kind of challenge it is
Your right on bunkers and tees and that is an issue but I was told they rarely have enough people to get by. Sometimes just enough to change pins and now greens. I have talked to them about labor and it is unreal what they have to deal with. Until that gets fixed, it will be an uphill climb. It is a extremely tough situation.
Another major issue is aerification. Nobody likes it but it is necessary. Big time. They do greens once a year and that is it. Most nice courses do greens twice a year and fwys and tees. Not sure when last time they did fwys and they pick a tee off here and there if they have people. If I had enough time to discuss the labor you would be blown away.
There is reason to believe this can improve, they can move this course from the 70s and update its skeleton. Until then people have no idea what kind of challenge it is
Not trying to be a smart ass, but how do these other universities that have great courses get around the labor issues?
Just wondering what you thought. I go out there often. Did you play anything other than Cimarron?
The penn state golf courses have a crew of 4 union last I heard. Full time guys. Full benefits, retirement, etc....
The part time guys are extremely limited by restrictions which make it very hard for them to get guys in and to keep guys. Not enough pay or hours. No benefits, no paid time off, no retirement, no health. Not many people want to make this their career for that.
Ohio State I know has 20 + full time employees who I believe are full benefits. I am not 100% sure but I believe that is the model PSU has pointed to.
At Ohio State you know every day you will have 20+ guys. At the PSU courses you can only guarantee 4. Then what part time season workers take the job and who make it past the first month. Then what students who are also under hours restrictions can show up when they have free time. It is a big difference from the scarlet and gray courses to the blue and white.
The part time guys are extremely limited by restrictions which make it very hard for them to get guys in and to keep guys. Not enough pay or hours. No benefits, no paid time off, no retirement, no health. Not many people want to make this their career for that.
Ohio State I know has 20 + full time employees who I believe are full benefits. I am not 100% sure but I believe that is the model PSU has pointed to.
At Ohio State you know every day you will have 20+ guys. At the PSU courses you can only guarantee 4. Then what part time season workers take the job and who make it past the first month. Then what students who are also under hours restrictions can show up when they have free time. It is a big difference from the scarlet and gray courses to the blue and white.
I can't answer on other courses but Ohio State is a great standard for University courses to shoot for everywhere. I am only semi familiar with what Ohio State does.
Sorry for the short reply Bob, I was between work and home. I met a few old friends who were traveling and Cimarron worked for us due to its proximity to the airport and other amenities. I visited Palm Springs a few years prior (2013?) and played 2 La Quinta courses, PGA West and Silver Rock. They were both excellent. I believe that Illinois Lion has a lot of expertise in golf in Palm Springs. Also, CR66 provided me with some nice guidance as well (so be it, I am a fan of the truth). If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer if I can. Illinois Lion is the man to seek advice from regarding golf in Palm Springs, however!
Thanks for your insights. There is a big difference between the Scarlet and Gray courses at OSU. The Scarlet is the "Championship" course whereas the Gray is the "Muni" course. I was very surprised that there is actually some hilly terrain on the Scarlet course. Perhaps some of the mounding is man made but not all of it.
It was a great pleasure to play there and see how big a shadow Jack casts there even today. OSU had an NCAA individual champion a few years before Jack went to school there. His name is Rick Jones. I only know this because I played in a tournament a few years back at a club just across the state line in Ohio and was in his foursome. He was a wonderful guy to be around!
Nicklaus, if I recall correctly, did an update on the OSU courses and I thought that he waived his fee. I think it's a pretty safe guess that he contributes significantly to OSU golf program and the Athletic dept..
Pretty sure that the Web.com tour uses the Scarlet course for one of its playoff sites. So that might bring in some $$$.
Good call of Jack and Ohio State, forgot that bit of information and that is very important. Big donations and designs are huge.
Purdue has Pete Dye helping. Pretty sure he designed their complex for free. Also probably donates a nice amount of $$$
It helps a lot to get big donations to make major improvements to the facilities. Without money ......
Purdue has Pete Dye helping. Pretty sure he designed their complex for free. Also probably donates a nice amount of $$$
It helps a lot to get big donations to make major improvements to the facilities. Without money ......
It seems to always come down to the money, doesn't it? Quick Story: I once played Pelican Hills in Newport Beach about 20 years ago while on a business trip. As a single playing with rented clubs, I was pretty nervous when I learned that the 3 guys I was paired with all played at Purdue in their college years (we were all in our mid-30's at this time). Two of the guys were still playing below 5 handicaps while the other guy had regressed to about a 12. They treated this 16 handicapper like "one of the guys" and we had a fun time all the way around the course.
On the 19th hole, they were telling stories about how tight the athletics budget was for golf at Purdue and reminisced about the long rides in the van. Then they talked about their golf coach's little money making scheme that involved accepting golf balls from Titleist (presumably for the team to use) and using them for barter with local pro shops in exchange for Top Flite golf balls (which the team did use) while pocketing whatever bounty the barter exchange would produce. These guys laughed like hell over this little scam that must have gone on for a while. I really enjoyed my day with those guys!!
On the 19th hole, they were telling stories about how tight the athletics budget was for golf at Purdue and reminisced about the long rides in the van. Then they talked about their golf coach's little money making scheme that involved accepting golf balls from Titleist (presumably for the team to use) and using them for barter with local pro shops in exchange for Top Flite golf balls (which the team did use) while pocketing whatever bounty the barter exchange would produce. These guys laughed like hell over this little scam that must have gone on for a while. I really enjoyed my day with those guys!!
Once the white course is gone I will no longer join at PSU. As bad as conditions can be it is still the best deal in town. To get 36 holes of unlimited play for less than $1,500 is good deal for State College.
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