PIAA High School Weight Classes

[1032004]

The data tell a different story: the lightest weights have startlingly high forfeit rates.

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44% is really high and may deserve raising it, but one of the replies to that tweet said that more 106’s weighed in than 195, 220 or 285.

I don’t get the argument about basing varsity weights on age. It should be based on talent. And there is typically a lot more talent at 106 than 220 and 285. Is a senior that they pulled off the football team and has never wrestled a day in his life really more deserving of a varsity spot than a freshman that’s wrestled for 5+ years?

 

[RD41]

I do not favor dropping weight classes to reduce the # of forfeits in a dual. I think in the long run it does not grow the sport but potentially could shrink the # of participants. Really, what is the goal of the proposal? More participation or altering the competitive balance?

I am in favor of allowing 2 or more entries per team per weight for tournaments, including the post-season. For non post-season tournaments I would like to see teams be given X # of entries. So instead of 2 per weight class, a team can enter up to 28 kids at whatever weights. The more opportunities we can give kids to participate the better in my opinion.

There is plenty of discussion on the board of the elite wrestlers but the vast majority of high school sports is made up of the non-elite athlete. In Jr & Sr High School i would hate to see the opportunities shrink or disappear. All of these proposals will have a much greater impact on these kids than elite athletes. I have seen sports, wrestling in particular, have a positive impact on kids. I would hate for those kids to lose the opportunity.

 

[sevensandeights]

Well said RD41!

 

[a_mshaffer]

Willie had some good takes on FRL yesterday. Kinda of where I was coming from... He made mention of the brackets for tournaments that have the most kids in them are the weights you want to keep.

 

[raslen007]

Thank you for the additional information and your brothers story is a good one.

To put my "powers to be" hat on, I'd say making weight class decisions based on his plight would be akin to making sure the state tournament series is an even playing field for Austin HS in Potter County (should they ever decide to field a team on their own). Its just not good practice (although Virginia might argue otherwise).

Putting on my personal hat, I'd say your brother most likely has some grit, became a better wrestler from having to consistently battle guys bigger and stronger than himself, and learned more from dealing with adversity than any gold medal could have gained him. Which is what it's all about.

Austin is not far from Coudersport where I went. The year I graduated I think they had under (20). They had some decent baseball players back in the day. Some of the kids play football at Coudy but that is a long ride for practices,

 

[donboy6499]

I do not favor dropping weight classes to reduce the # of forfeits in a dual. I think in the long run it does not grow the sport but potentially could shrink the # of participants.

This is the correct answer. We will be back to examining whether 12 is too many in a few years, because there will be an inevitable loss of kids.

I don't care if more forfeits are in lower weights or not, if anything should be gotten ride of, it is the higher weights (which I still disagree with but whatever). So many more high level guys have come from the lower weights and grown into higher than from the higher weights and just stayed there.

 

[donboy6499]

Willie had some good takes on FRL yesterday. Kinda of where I was coming from... He made mention of the brackets for tournaments that have the most kids in them are the weights you want to keep.

Bingo. You go to less weights, you take schools that otherwise could fill all weights, or all but 1, and you tell two kids you're not starting. Those kids will do something else. And the smaller schools that couldn't field 14 (or 11 or 9) starters won't magically field 12. Why stop at 12? Why not 8 if the goal is no forfeits?

 

[jrd23psu]

Really, what is the goal of the proposal? .

From the articles I read the goal stated by one of the coaches in favor of removing two weights is to make duals more fan friendly because of the lower amount of forfeits.

This is just a really strange rationale. The sport is for the kids, not the fans. When you start making decisions based on what the fans want to see and not what is best for the kids you've lost your way.

 

[psumacw]

Bingo. You go to less weights, you take schools that otherwise could fill all weights, or all but 1, and you tell two kids you're not starting. Those kids will do something else. And the smaller schools that couldn't field 14 (or 11 or 9) starters won't magically field 12. Why stop at 12? Why not 8 if the goal is no forfeits?

i'm not sure i understand the implied beliefs of the kids in this scenario. are we assuming they only want to wrestle if they can start? well if they're not wrestling half of their matches because the other team doesn't have a guy at that weight, is that enough to keep them?

 

[El-Jefe]

Bingo. You go to less weights, you take schools that otherwise could fill all weights, or all but 1, and you tell two kids you're not starting. Those kids will do something else. And the smaller schools that couldn't field 14 (or 11 or 9) starters won't magically field 12. Why stop at 12? Why not 8 if the goal is no forfeits?

Then why not 27 weights, if kids want to start?

 

[donboy6499]

i'm not sure i understand the implied beliefs of the kids in this scenario. are we assuming they only want to wrestle if they can start? well if they're not wrestling half of their matches because the other team doesn't have a guy at that weight, is that enough to keep them?

Certainly, you will lose kids coming in when you have less opportunity to start. I don't know that you'll necessarily have Kid A say "know what, started last year but now I'm never gonna fit weight x when I got weight y last year and they removed weight y, so I quit".

But I think that coming through the elementary to middle to high (let alone if the kid is at the same club), kids see real quick if a guy that's their weight is better. At that point, sure, there are kids who would quit otherwise, that would stay if there was a weight conducive to them starting. Absolutely.

 

[donboy6499]

Then why not 27 weights, if kids want to start?

Hey I'm all for more>less if the idea is to get kids out and into sports/wrestling/the things we as coaches preach that the sport offers. In a vacuum people say "kid could still come out just not start" and yes, true, but I would say that person doesn't know kids very well.

I feel it's a little hypocritical, we lament any little sign that the sport isn't garnering the support necessary at the college level, national funding, etc, now we're gonna do anything at all that would turn away a kid from experiencing matches, keeping them in the sport.

 

[PSUer1989]

Honest question as a fan with no wrestling experience, how can a sport exist where kids aren't willing to not start? Every single team sport has kids who practice hard and, due to being less talented, don't get into games. I would question how much an athlete likes their sport if the only reason they compete in it is because they know they can start. I am all for maximum participation, but saying kids will quit because they can't start is not a reason to make any decision regarding weights.

 

[dicemen99]

Hey I'm all for more>less if the idea is to get kids out and into sports/wrestling/the things we as coaches preach that the sport offers. In a vacuum people say "kid could still come out just not start" and yes, true, but I would say that person doesn't know kids very well.

I feel it's a little hypocritical, we lament any little sign that the sport isn't garnering the support necessary at the college level, national funding, etc, now we're gonna do anything at all that would turn away a kid from experiencing matches, keeping them in the sport.

I would say that this post is representative of one reason why we have a numbers decline in the first place and it's really not wrestling specific. I will add that I've been involved with this kind of thing for most of my adult life and tend to think that I know the kids in this sport fairly well.

The weight class changes that we are going on four pages discussing will have practically ZERO impact on future numbers and is not a sign of support or lack of support. There are a bunch of other things that are that get no discussion.

As I've said before, the weight class thing is often a personal take on an issue that is meant to be a representative reaction, not an agent for change. I could give you a lot of specific examples of that from people I interact with regularly and not-so regularly.

 

[sevensandeights]

Honest question as a fan with no wrestling experience, how can a sport exist where kids aren't willing to not start? Every single team sport has kids who practice hard and, due to being less talented, don't get into games. I would question how much an athlete likes their sport if the only reason they compete in it is because they know they can start. I am all for maximum participation, but saying kids will quit because they can't start is not a reason to make any decision regarding weights.

Kids might not be a starter in other other sports but they still get to play on the varsity squad in competition. Football and basket teams need fresh legs throughout every game. Baseball teams need pinch hitters/runners, relief pitchers, DHs and defensive specialists. Kids can contribute at the varsity level.

In wrestling, a non starter might be get lucky to get one or 2 varsity matches a year and 6-8 JV matches. There is virtually no JV wrestling anymore. Allowing 9th graders to compete at the JH level has really hurt JV wrestling but might ultimately help the sport by keeping these kids involved and getting 30+ JH matches.

 

[donboy6499]

I would say that this post is representative of one reason why we have a numbers decline in the first place and it's really not wrestling specific. I will add that I've been involved with this kind of thing for most of my adult life and tend to think that I know the kids in this sport fairly well.

The weight class changes that we are going on four pages discussing will have practically ZERO impact on future numbers and is not a sign of support or lack of support. There are a bunch of other things that are that get no discussion.

As I've said before, the weight class thing is often a personal take on an issue that is meant to be a representative reaction, not an agent for change. I could give you a lot of specific examples of that from people I interact with regularly and not-so regularly.

This line of thinking is not why we have numbers in decline. I don't even know where to start with that one.

I just think that we're fooling ourselves if we think that lowering the number of classes won't decrease numbers. It just will. Willie was spot on in the assessment on FRL, we can't sit here and act like wrestling is immune from the same kind of influences other sports have and that they are just more dedicated than kids in other sports.

 

[donboy6499]

Honest question as a fan with no wrestling experience, how can a sport exist where kids aren't willing to not start? Every single team sport has kids who practice hard and, due to being less talented, don't get into games. I would question how much an athlete likes their sport if the only reason they compete in it is because they know they can start. I am all for maximum participation, but saying kids will quit because they can't start is not a reason to make any decision regarding weights.

I would say that on basketball teams, baseball teams, football especially, those kids truly do believe they're gonna get in and often they do. The all state PG needs a 2 minute break every half. The safety going to Pitt doesn't cover kickoffs. Etc.

Good luck convincing the freshman to stay in wrestling if he's average but has obviously better guys in the weights around him. And now we're gonna squeeze classes. It's like there are people so close to wrestling in this thread that don't see a bigger picture as it pertains to kids. It's not like it's going from 2 State tournaments to 3 and we're trying to get more trophies to hand out. I'm not saying that. But forfeits are not hurting the sport guys. They're preferable to throwing out weight altogether in my opinion.

 

[SWPA]

I would say that on basketball teams, baseball teams, football especially, those kids truly do believe they're gonna get in and often they do. The all state PG needs a 2 minute break every half. The safety going to Pitt doesn't cover kickoffs. Etc.

Good luck convincing the freshman to stay in wrestling if he's average but has obviously better guys in the weights around him. And now we're gonna squeeze classes. It's like there are people so close to wrestling in this thread that don't see a bigger picture as it pertains to kids. It's not like it's going from 2 State tournaments to 3 and we're trying to get more trophies to hand out. I'm not saying that. But forfeits are not hurting the sport guys. They're preferable to throwing out weight altogether in my opinion.

Fans don't want to go to a dual meet if only a few of the matches are contested. Low numbers of participants does hurt the sport and it's why teams end up folding their programs. The most followed teams are the ones that are good (usually) but closely followed by the ones that can wrestle all weight classes. I have stated this before, I went to a HS dual meet last year that had three contested matches of the 14 weights. Suffice it to say that what little crowd was there, they were not very involved in the matches.

 

[donboy6499]

Fans don't want to go to a dual meet if only a few of the matches are contested. Low numbers of participants does hurt the sport and it's why teams end up folding their programs. The most followed teams are the ones that are good (usually) but closely followed by the ones that can wrestle all weight classes. I have stated this before, I went to a HS dual meet last year that had three contested matches of the 14 weights. Suffice it to say that what little crowd was there, they were not very involved in the matches.

I agree, that's an issue. Only three weights contested is bad for everyone. That needs remedied.

To be clear I'm not saying there's no issue and that stories like above don't exist. If they lower to 12 or whatever number, it's not a national tragedy. I just think that it's going to lead to less participation overall. I think we'll be sitting here in a generation lowering again. Just my opinion, could be wrong and hope I am.

 

[PSUer1989]

Kids might not be a starter in other other sports but they still get to play on the varsity squad in competition. Football and basket teams need fresh legs throughout every game. Baseball teams need pinch hitters/runners, relief pitchers, DHs and defensive specialists. Kids can contribute at the varsity level.

In wrestling, a non starter might be get lucky to get one or 2 varsity matches a year and 6-8 JV matches. There is virtually no JV wrestling anymore. Allowing 9th graders to compete at the JH level has really hurt JV wrestling but might ultimately help the sport by keeping these kids involved and getting 30+ JH matches.

I don't know about baseball, but it is rare to see the end of the bench get in basketball or football games. My daughter plays volleyball, and there are girls who get in maybe one or two sets (not matches) a season.

 

[donboy6499]

I don't know about baseball, but it is rare to see the end of the bench get in basketball or football games. My daughter plays volleyball, and there are girls who get in maybe one or two sets (not matches) a season.

We'll just agree to disagree on the discussion about whether a greater % of a non-starting roster gets in during a baseball or volleyball game or football game vs. wrestling match.

 

[SWPA]

I don't know about baseball, but it is rare to see the end of the bench get in basketball or football games. My daughter plays volleyball, and there are girls who get in maybe one or two sets (not matches) a season.

I attended a HS that had a fairly competitive basketball team and they would usually be ahead in the fourth quarter. This lead the crowd to reign down cheers of "Play the scrubs, Play the scrubs, Play the scrubs". To which the coach would usually oblige. That lead to many cheers and smiles. Back then the scrubs new who they were and embraced their role or worked hard to get better.

 

[psumacw]

This line of thinking is not why we have numbers in decline. I don't even know where to start with that one.

I just think that we're fooling ourselves if we think that lowering the number of classes won't decrease numbers. It just will. Willie was spot on in the assessment on FRL, we can't sit here and act like wrestling is immune from the same kind of influences other sports have and that they are just more dedicated than kids in other sports.

if you're saying lowering the number of weight classes will definitely decrease number of participants then then why wouldn't increasing the number of weight classes increase the number of participants?

the truth is there's an optimal number of weight classes to maximize participants and no one, not me, not you, knows exactly what that number is.

 

[NoVa Lion]

if you're saying lowering the number of weight classes will definitely decrease number of participants then then why wouldn't increasing the number of weight classes increase the number of participants?

the truth is there's an optimal number of weight classes to maximize participants and no one, not me, not you, knows exactly what that number is.

I agree with that. Plus, there is not a one size fits all for how many weight classes is optimal. There are schools with less than 100 kids to more than 1,000 kids in a graduating class that have wrestling teams. 12 weight classes is probably to many for the smallest schools, while 14 weight classes is probably to small for the largest schools. I don't have a solution, just pointing out something that hasn't even been mentioned in this thread or in any other discussion on this topic that I have seen.

 

[amattaro]

Honest question as a fan with no wrestling experience, how can a sport exist where kids aren't willing to not start? Every single team sport has kids who practice hard and, due to being less talented, don't get into games. I would question how much an athlete likes their sport if the only reason they compete in it is because they know they can start. I am all for maximum participation, but saying kids will quit because they can't start is not a reason to make any decision regarding weights.

Just my opinion, but I’d rather ride pine in any sport over the potential sacrifice of cutting weight all winter long to never get on the mat.

Wrestling is a 24x7 commitment that other sports don’t require.

 

[GantryZ]

Wrestling is a 24x7 commitment that other sports don’t require.

Pretty much all sports are a 24x7 commitment at the high school level, specialization has kind of ruined the seasonal athlete.

 

[PSUer1989]

Yes, I know my volleyball players has 2 weeks off between highschool and club season...then straight to summer league.

 

[1032004]

In wrestling, a non starter might be get lucky to get one or 2 varsity matches a year and 6-8 JV matches. There is virtually no JV wrestling anymore. Allowing 9th graders to compete at the JH level has really hurt JV wrestling but might ultimately help the sport by keeping these kids involved and getting 30+ JH matches.

Yes the lack of JV in many cases is what makes wrestling different than a lot of other sports, and is part of the reason you may see kids quit if they don’t start.

I think a secondary hope of the proposal would be to increase the number of JV matches, but if kids quit that may not happen.

 

[RD41]

Fans don't want to go to a dual meet if only a few of the matches are contested. Low numbers of participants does hurt the sport and it's why teams end up folding their programs. The most followed teams are the ones that are good (usually) but closely followed by the ones that can wrestle all weight classes. I have stated this before, I went to a HS dual meet last year that had three contested matches of the 14 weights. Suffice it to say that what little crowd was there, they were not very involved in the matches.

I agree participation is a problem. However extrapolating from the HS match last year to the proposed change, what would really change? They might end up with 4 contested matches? Will that really change the fan experience. Truly this is not about the fans though.

 

[El-Jefe]

The full set of data below -- raw and normalized.

Most disturbing isn't the high forfeit rates at the lightest and heaviest weights -- it's participation across the board. The BEST forfeit rate at any weight, any classification, any of the past 3 years was 16.9% (152 AAA, in 2017).

One out of six forfeited is hard to stomach for the smallest of the AA schools -- and completely unacceptable for AAA. Big schools should ALWAYS be a backup 145 or 138 able to go.

THIS is the real issue that the sport needs to solve.

 

[dicemen99]

The full set of data below -- raw and normalized.

Most disturbing isn't the high forfeit rates at the lightest and heaviest weights -- it's participation across the board. The BEST forfeit rate at any weight, any classification, any of the past 3 years was 16.9% (152 AAA, in 2017).

One out of six forfeited is hard to stomach for the smallest of the AA schools -- and completely unacceptable for AAA. Big schools should ALWAYS be a backup 145 or 138 able to go.

THIS is the real issue that the sport needs to solve.

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Exactly. We have four pages here about exactly the wrong topic. I'll just keep saying it over and over until I'm blue in the face, but the weight classes are merely a reflection of the wrestler population. You fix the participation issue and nobody is worrying about the weight classes. Easier said than done though.

106 the highest forfeit rate by far. 113 next. 120 with more forfeits than 285. And everyone is worried about making the lowest weight 110 because an "undersized" 9th grader either waits a year to compete in postseason or loses an extra half dozen matches and doesn't make it to Hershey. And a dozen and a half stories about the same 1 in 10,000 kid who weighed 105 at 18 and walked uphill both ways to school.

 

[RoarLions1]

Exactly. We have four pages here about exactly the wrong topic. I'll just keep saying it over and over until I'm blue in the face, but the weight classes are merely a reflection of the wrestler population. You fix the participation issue and nobody is worrying about the weight classes. Easier said than done though.

106 the highest forfeit rate by far. 113 next. 120 with more forfeits than 285. And everyone is worried about making the lowest weight 110 because an "undersized" 9th grader either waits a year to compete in postseason or loses an extra half dozen matches and doesn't make it to Hershey. And a dozen and a half stories about the same 1 in 10,000 kid who weighed 105 at 18 and walked uphill both ways to school.

Not every post has been about the wrong topic. Overall participation has been raised several times. Get the gist of this post though, as the thread has gone down the rabbit hole often.

Here's some interesting big picture HS sports participation data (2000 vs 2018);
-- Overall Boys Participation numbers rose by +2%
-- Overall Girls Participation numbers rose by +8%
-- Enrollment, 2000 to 2016, increased by +12%
-- Top 10 Boys Sports Participation #'s, 2018 compared to 2000;
-- Football +3%
-- Outdoor Track & Field +25%
-- Basketball +2%
-- Baseball +8%
-- Soccer +38%
-- Cross Country +47%
-- Wrestling +3%
-- Tennis +13%
-- Golf -13%
-- Swimming & Diving +60%

-- PA Wrestling rose +15% in same time frame (9720 vs 8424), but that was after PA wrestling nosedived in the 1980's (-26% approximately), and 1990's (another -30%)

-- in 1982, boys wrestling nation-wide had 256,107 HS participants, while in 2018 the number was 245,564, about a 4% drop in 36 years, despite significant population growth.

I'm totally with dice...and the "easier said than done" participation comment. Sports are holding their own, but the world we live in today, and the world of 1982 or 2000 are not the same.

 

[nlion91]

Does anyone know... weight changes for High School were approved and will go into effect next season, is that the same for the Junior High weights or do they go into effect this season?