Q

[87 Penn St8]

FWIW, the kid has two BS degrees in bio and environmental science. He took the GRE's for a possible Phd in enviro science. He scored even higher on the GRE. He is at a crossroads as many recent grads are. He really doesn't know what to do. My comment to him was simply that his phenomenal test scores aren't going to make his decisions any easier but they are going to provide him with lots of opportunities. Opportunities that most people never have.

To address kijanacat; His older sister pulled the same thing; Ivy league scores but got 100% schol to Temple. Personally, my gut feeling is to go for the best school possible.

It's an interesting problem that I never would have had to consider.

One regret I have in life is not studying law when I had the opportunity as a 30 something. I had established myself as an excellent contract negotiator in the sports realm. Self taught myself how to understand the legal language in most Olympic/World Cup and endorsement documents. My bosses were willing to pay for NYU which was around the corner, however they were not willing to give me fewer client responsibilities to accommodate. With a young child and already billing 70+ hours a week that would've lead to a divorce. The best advice received was from another VP Account Director who had gone to Michigan Law: "ONLY go to law school if you want to practice law." Your friend should definitely have a vision on what the endgame they want is before taking the leap.

As for scholarships vs. brand, my son had undergrad offers from state schools where he would've MADE MONEY attendimg some colleges. At Ole Miss it was full ride plus 1 year of AP credits plus $5k cash per year plus $11,000 ""Summer" money to expand his mind on trips and not have to work.

In the end he went to an Ivy with great financial aid but he does have loans. BY FAR the proper choice for him. The network he has is responsible for amazing opportunities for his start up. Beyond his initial Friends and Family round EVERY investor is someone he met in college, one of their parents, or via friends from college. ALL so far are Ivy League grads (oddly mostly from Princeton, which is not where my son went, but one of his fraternity brothers brother did and he networked through him).

Long-winded way to say that it is really important to consider the value of the brand. That said, one of his HS classmates turned down Brown and went to Arizona State on their National Merit deal. She loved the Honors College within the party school and ended up as a Fulbright Scholar. She is pursuing a career in academia. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

KNOWING your goal and how you want to live is the key. A first cousin of mine went to Penn Undergrad and Jefferson Med School. While she was very much an academic elitist, and still is, she has learned that in her field of Emergency Medicine that the "best" schools don't necessarily translate to the better long term employees. In her position as a hiring administrator for a very large network mostly in the West she has found that hungry staffers who tended to be athletes but may have attended a "lesser brand" Med School have outperformed those who may have graduated from Ivys. The athletic machismo combined with the stress, grace under pressure and likelihood of physical fitness and dexterity outweighs grades...especially on a 48 hour weekend shift in East LA.during "trauma-rama" gangbusters shooting sprees.

Your candidate seems super bright and will likely find success whatever they pick...the debt side is a choice that should be weighed on lifestyle more than sple dollars and cents. Please wish them good luck!

 

[Obliviax]

One regret I have in life is not studying law when I had the opportunity as a 30 something. I had established myself as an excellent contract negotiator in the sports realm. Self taught myself how to understand the legal language in most Olympic/World Cup and endorsement documents. My bosses were willing to pay for NYU which was around the corner, however they were not willing to give me fewer client responsibilities to accommodate. With a young child and already billing 70+ hours a week that would've lead to a divorce. The best advice received was from another VP Account Director who had gone to Michigan Law: "ONLY go to law school if you want to practice law." Your friend should definitely have a vision on what the endgame they want is before taking the leap.

As for scholarships vs. brand, my son had undergrad offers from state schools where he would've MADE MONEY attendimg some colleges. At Ole Miss it was full ride plus 1 year of AP credits plus $5k cash per year plus $11,000 ""Summer" money to expand his mind on trips and not have to work.

In the end he went to an Ivy with great financial aid but he does have loans. BY FAR the proper choice for him. The network he has is responsible for amazing opportunities for his start up. Beyond his initial Friends and Family round EVERY investor is someone he met in college, one of their parents, or via friends from college. ALL so far are Ivy League grads (oddly mostly from Princeton, which is not where my son went, but one of his fraternity brothers brother did and he networked through him).

Long-winded way to say that it is really important to consider the value of the brand. That said, one of his HS classmates turned down Brown and went to Arizona State on their National Merit deal. She loved the Honors College within the party school and ended up as a Fulbright Scholar. She is pursuing a career in academia. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

KNOWING your goal and how you want to live is the key. A first cousin of mine went to Penn Undergrad and Jefferson Med School. While she was very much an academic elitist, and still is, she has learned that in her field of Emergency Medicine that the "best" schools don't necessarily translate to the better long term employees. In her position as a hiring administrator for a very large network mostly in the West she has found that hungry staffers who tended to be athletes but may have attended a "lesser brand" Med School have outperformed those who may have graduated from Ivys. The athletic machismo combined with the stress, grace under pressure and likelihood of physical fitness and dexterity outweighs grades...especially on a 48 hour weekend shift in East LA.during "trauma-rama" gangbusters shooting sprees.

Your candidate seems super bright and will likely find success whatever they pick...the debt side is a choice that should be weighed on lifestyle more than sple dollars and cents. Please wish them good luck!

Great post. I also regret not going to law school. However, I do wonder if going to law school would have indoctrinated me differently. Many attorneys I know get so wound up in following the rules of law that they completely miss common sense. Many attorneys I've worked with have been mind-bogglingly dumb. I had an experience yesterday with a corporate attorney that simply could not understand that an organization did things differently than she thought was possible even after it was proven.

Regardless all of that, my biggest regret is not setting my career goals higher. I spent two decades making good money with a couple of dead-in-the-water companies due to my "loyalty". I was making decent money and complacent. I should have quit and found a different path. There is a reason why your paycheck is from the last two weeks and not the next. You are paid on past performance and few companies appreciate your accomplishments. Other companies see your accomplishments and are happy to pay for that kind of talent.

 

[Aardvark86]

I agree that starting at a big name school gives you a head start in making more money. However, I don't agree that going to a big name school gives you a head start in being a more effective and career satisfied lawyer. The big law firms sell the "prestige" of the big name law school graduates to unsophisticated clients who pay big bucks for a large amount of not very useful scut research work. In fact the young lawyers at the big firms intuitively understand how useless much of their work is because many are unsatisified with their work. https://www.lifeafterlaw.com/2021/11/22/young-lawyers-are-increasingly-saying-no-to-big-law-firms/

One example of how pie in the sky and useless many lawyers are, and in particular Ivy League lawyers. I have been a co-investor on a good number of projects with a long time real estate investor who has owned over 1,500 houses. We needed to evict a bum renter from one of our projects who claimed that she didn't owe rent because the applicable law was from Monrovia (or something like that). The instinct for lawyers who haven't really gone toe to toe in litigation is file a moderately time consuming summary judgment motion. Much easier to file a request for admissions [that renter hadn't paid and has no cancelled checks to show proof of payment] I utilized the request for admissions tactic (simple technique explicitly authorized by civil rules), and my co-investor called the tactic "brilliant" -- in all of his years in real estate not one of the lawyers involved in messy rental evictions had used this simple, very practical tactic.

This.
Big name schools are generally for big law and for people who don’t want to practice law (judges and academics).
lots of fantastic lawyers in litigation and corporate work who do well because they are hungry.

the dirty secret is that the only secret knowledge we lawyers have is rules of evidence and procedure. Everything else you can look up or, if you’re creative and passionate enough, make up.

 

[jferretti]

Agree with this 100%. You want big law, and to work at a place like Cravath or Debevoise you go to the top 10 law school, as they recruit almost exclusively from these schools. They are starting associates at nearly 200k and partners earn outrageous money. Of course you will sell your soul and work ungodly hours, but that’s what it takes.

Is the young person happy working at a stellar regional firm and making a few hundred g’s? Go to the lesser school, take the money, graduate in the upper half of the class or so and no worries. He/She may even have something that resembles a life outside of work as well.

Work/life balance is key. I went to a middle tier law school, started in a medium size firm and gained valuable experience, and then hooked up with a couple of talented lawyers and started our own business. We did well working and enjoyed our lives along the way.

I had opportunities to work with BIG firm lawyers from NYC on some cases and yes they made big money. But they had health issues in their 50's and 60's from the stress and toll of feeding the beast (the firm has needs in order to compensate at high levels). I have seen a few put in the ground (one spouse is suing the firm for "overworking" her husband) while I am now semi-retired on a golf course. It really comes down to what you value in your career.

I do think the outrageous tuition costs currently for law school will have more influence on the question of money vs. prestigious school.

 

[Aardvark86]

Work/life balance is key. I went to a middle tier law school, started in a medium size firm and gained valuable experience, and then hooked up with a couple of talented lawyers and started our own business. We did well working and enjoyed our lives along the way.

I had opportunities to work with BIG firm lawyers from NYC on some cases and yes they made big money. But they had health issues in their 50's and 60's from the stress and toll of feeding the beast (the firm has needs in order to compensate at high levels). I have seen a few put in the ground (one spouse is suing the firm for "overworking" her husband) while I am now semi-retired on a golf course. It really comes down to what you value in your career.

I do think the outrageous tuition costs currently for law school will have more influence on the question of money vs. prestigious school.

law schools basically fund medical schools.

 

[87 Penn St8]

Great post. I also regret not going to law school. However, I do wonder if going to law school would have indoctrinated me differently. Many attorneys I know get so wound up in following the rules of law that they completely miss common sense. Many attorneys I've worked with have been mind-bogglingly dumb. I had an experience yesterday with a corporate attorney that simply could not understand that an organization did things differently than she thought was possible even after it was proven.

Regardless all of that, my biggest regret is not setting my career goals higher. I spent two decades making good money with a couple of dead-in-the-water companies due to my "loyalty". I was making decent money and complacent. I should have quit and found a different path. There is a reason why your paycheck is from the last two weeks and not the next. You are paid on past performance and few companies appreciate your accomplishments. Other companies see your accomplishments and are happy to pay for that kind of talent.

I definitely can relate to the goals- although my situation went in reverse. After starting in a Management Training Program at a Top 3 Global Ad Firm in NYC in 1988 I meandered my way through a career in Media and eventually Sponsorship Marketing all for top NYC companies. Work hard/play hard/ lived a dream lifestyle for a young sports oriented person.

That type of workplace commitment- which is REQUIRED to get and keep the job- impacts all other facets of your life. My relationship with my then girlfriend and now wife was perpetually tarnished over Valentine's Day- which also happens to coincide with NBA All-Star Weekend. So I'd be away- working and partying my ass off- and come home to issues regardless of how many times we went around on this. It became a perpetual flashpoint.

After leaving NYC post 9/11 and working for a pro franchise for a year I took 3 years off and got my teaching certificate in night school. Raising my kids was by far the best job ever- but we burned through a lot of savings (luckily we didn't touch 401Ks). The "altruistic" side of me loves Education and it has been very rewarding. However the flip side is that many of the assumptions that I had going in have been completely turned upside down (Summers OFF? NEVER/ job security/ reasonable raises/ pension/ "relaxed/repetitive" work environment/ everyone is a "team" who works together for the betterment of students / "support" from Principals and Admins is non-existent/ Politics has impacted the workplace and the Covid/Virtual experience was interesting and awful at the same time...the hangover from that continues and likely will until I quit). Knowing what I do now I wouldn't get into teaching again- all of the above have turned out to not be the case in my 17 years so far- but the highs are very high and the service aspect is indeed rewarding. I love the kids & classroom- but the rest is nothing but headaches.

Bottom line is that my bride and I will be ok....not rich but far from poor. We will likely have part time jobs to afford luxuries like dinners out and/or travel for the rest of our lives. Our children were raised with both of us in their daily lives...unfortunately for my own kids I also taught at their high school! The line between "Success" and "Regret" is a thin one. Placing my relationships with my family and community at the top I think provides me with more of the "Success" grade. I coached their teams/ attended their events/never travelled- but I was always hustling up to 10 part time jobs to make $ ends meet. The work ethic needed to succeed as a teacher is much more demanding than most parents would believe. Excellence is excellence in any field and it takes time and effort well past the 2:35 bell. Humans are different than Ad Campaigns....

There was another opportunity to work for a large international sneaker/apparel company in mid 2000s where I was recruited by a former colleague to work for her just as I was completing my Masters in Education degree. I would have likely made more in 5-7 years there than I will in 20+ as a teacher. My banker neighbor ran some numbers with me and couldn't understand why I wouldn't just bust ass and then retire. The truth is it probably would've swallowed me up. I had already burned out twice and was gun shy. Things happen for a reason and I don't look back too often- except on paydays!

Given the generalist type of education that the original candidate had maybe a JD/MBA program could be something that fits? I know that Penn has an excellent offering which may help the student explore and gain better focus while still growing their resume. I'm 56 and close to the end of the line- but still have a lot to offer, We'll see what the future holds!

 

[Obliviax]

I definitely can relate to the goals- although my situation went in reverse. After starting in a Management Training Program at a Top 3 Global Ad Firm in NYC in 1988 I meandered my way through a career in Media and eventually Sponsorship Marketing all for top NYC companies. Work hard/play hard/ lived a dream lifestyle for a young sports oriented person.

That type of workplace commitment- which is REQUIRED to get and keep the job- impacts all other facets of your life. My relationship with my then girlfriend and now wife was perpetually tarnished over Valentine's Day- which also happens to coincide with NBA All-Star Weekend. So I'd be away- working and partying my ass off- and come home to issues regardless of how many times we went around on this. It became a perpetual flashpoint.

After leaving NYC post 9/11 and working for a pro franchise for a year I took 3 years off and got my teaching certificate in night school. Raising my kids was by far the best job ever- but we burned through a lot of savings (luckily we didn't touch 401Ks). The "altruistic" side of me loves Education and it has been very rewarding. However the flip side is that many of the assumptions that I had going in have been completely turned upside down (Summers OFF? NEVER/ job security/ reasonable raises/ pension/ "relaxed/repetitive" work environment/ everyone is a "team" who works together for the betterment of students / "support" from Principals and Admins is non-existent/ Politics has impacted the workplace and the Covid/Virtual experience was interesting and awful at the same time...the hangover from that continues and likely will until I quit). Knowing what I do now I wouldn't get into teaching again- all of the above have turned out to not be the case in my 17 years so far- but the highs are very high and the service aspect is indeed rewarding. I love the kids & classroom- but the rest is nothing but headaches.

Bottom line is that my bride and I will be ok....not rich but far from poor. We will likely have part time jobs to afford luxuries like dinners out and/or travel for the rest of our lives. Our children were raised with both of us in their daily lives...unfortunately for my own kids I also taught at their high school! The line between "Success" and "Regret" is a thin one. Placing my relationships with my family and community at the top I think provides me with more of the "Success" grade. I coached their teams/ attended their events/never travelled- but I was always hustling up to 10 part time jobs to make $ ends meet. The work ethic needed to succeed as a teacher is much more demanding than most parents would believe. Excellence is excellence in any field and it takes time and effort well past the 2:35 bell. Humans are different than Ad Campaigns....

There was another opportunity to work for a large international sneaker/apparel company in mid 2000s where I was recruited by a former colleague to work for her just as I was completing my Masters in Education degree. I would have likely made more in 5-7 years there than I will in 20+ as a teacher. My banker neighbor ran some numbers with me and couldn't understand why I wouldn't just bust ass and then retire. The truth is it probably would've swallowed me up. I had already burned out twice and was gun shy. Things happen for a reason and I don't look back too often- except on paydays!

Given the generalist type of education that the original candidate had maybe a JD/MBA program could be something that fits? I know that Penn has an excellent offering which may help the student explore and gain better focus while still growing their resume. I'm 56 and close to the end of the line- but still have a lot to offer, We'll see what the future holds!

yep...it is interesting to look back at your life's journey and the decisions made. I have no regrets although I could clearly have managed both my personal life and career better. Having said that, I made some pretty damn good decisions. In the end, its like buying and selling stock or playing a round of golf: you could have always done better but could have done a lot worse.

 

[dailybuck777]

the dirty secret is that the only secret knowledge we lawyers have is rules of evidence and procedure. Everything else you can look up or, if you’re creative and passionate enough, make up.

I disagree with this. An interesting (for some lawyers) issue arose today. Does the definition for duress of the nature that it will prevent a contract from being enforced (in Ohio duress has to come from the opposite party, not general market conditions) have applicability to the definition of duress for an "arms-length sale" in the context of determining the value of a property for property tax purposes.

As a cultural matter I would note that many Chinese people have your view of the law -- anyone can look it up -- why pay for an attorney's services? My second wife, to my great advantage, followed this cultural norm, prior to our divorce.

 

[bostavan]

I advise you not to get a scholarship but go to a good school. There you will learn more about the profession and learn a lot. After all, in today's world, you need to be able to stand up for your rights. Amid the hustle and bustle of the day, consulting a lawyer is becoming the right and good thing to do. It just pays to listen to advice, and all will be well! You can do without the advice and try to assert your rights yourself. But you need to understand that it will be difficult, and the expert always knows how to behave in a particular situation. You can read the article https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/6-faqs-about-whistleblower-lawsuits-62102, which I recently found. After reading it, everything got straightened out in my head.

 

[IANit]

I advise you not to get a scholarship but go to a good school. There you will learn more about the profession and learn a lot.

I don't think the learning is generally that much different. If you are willing to put in the time, the school you go to shouldn't matter that much. Networking and perception are probably much different, however. There are some cases where the scholarship makes sense.