Rank your four 4 timers

[Cali_Nittany]

The way i look it at is who did they beat, don't like Dake but over the 4 years he beat the following future world team members - Reece, Frank and David off the top of my head that is pretty impressive

Cael #1 A thru Z
Dake is #2 because of your point about level of competition.
Smith #3
Stiebler #4 (I'd also have some 3xers ahead of him but that wasnt the question)

Dake's list of championship victims
2010 - Marion (still on permanent suspension)
Goes on to place 4th in 2011 and another 2nd in 2012

2011 - Molinaro
Wins the championship the next season

2012 - St. John
Wins the championship the next season

2013 - Taylor
2-1-2-1 (Winning championships prior and after Dake)

 

[El-Jefe]

Cael #1 A thru Z
Dake is #2 because of your point about level of competition.
Smith #3
Stiebler #4 (I'd also have some 3xers ahead of him but that wasnt the question)

Dake's list of championship victims
2010 - Marion (still on permanent suspension)
Goes on to place 4th in 2011 and another 2nd in 2012

2011 - Molinaro
Wins the championship the next season

2012 - St. John
Wins the championship the next season

2013 - Taylor
2-1-2-1 (Winning championships prior and after Dake)

Couldn't you make the same argument to put Stieber equivalent to or ahead of Dake? (Asterisks aside.)

His finals wins were Oliver (2x champ), Ramos (won the next year), Port (2x finalist), and Carter. Stieber beat Zain in the semis the year he beat Carter in the finals. And unlike Dake, Stieber was a bonus machine for most of his career.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Crap - a fortuitous rollthrough prevents us from saying

Cael
Smith
Dake
Nickal

I would go
Cael
2 loss Bo
Dake
Smith
No respect Steiber

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Couldn't you make the same argument to put Stieber equivalent to or ahead of Dake? (Asterisks aside.)

His finals wins were Oliver (2x champ), Ramos (won the next year), Port (2x finalist), and Carter. Stieber beat Zain in the semis the year he beat Carter in the finals. And unlike Dake, Stieber was a bonus machine for most of his career.

I would agree with you but I'm not putting the asterisks aside.

 

[Needanap]

Dake
Smith
Sanderson
Stieber


http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Honors_Multiple.html

I go Cael, smith, Dake, Stieber

If we are ranking 4 timers, are you sure that Smith won 4 titles? I always thought that Jim Jordan beat Smith at least one year in the NCAA finals. I may be wrong but think that's correct.

 

[PSUcup1]

If we are ranking 4 timers, are you sure that Smith won 4 titles? I always thought that Jim Jordan beat Smith at least one year in the NCAA finals. I may be wrong but think that's correct.

His younger brother Pat Smith. Who was actually the first to do it

 

[danoftw]

Cael-Won the Hodge 3x. Olympic Gold. Wheaties box.
Other 3 combined-Hodge 2x. 0 Olympic Gold. No Wheaties box

 

[AgSurfer]

Cael-Won the Hodge 3x. Olympic Gold. Wheaties box.
Other 3 combined-Hodge 2x. 0 Olympic Gold. No Wheaties box

Good point!

Along with that:
Cael - hired almost immediately by Penn State as head coach as soon as he applied for the position.

Others - never given any consideration by Penn State.

 

[District four]

His younger brother Pat Smith. Who was actually the first to do it

I remember that match

 

[AgSurfer]

I remember that match

Time for a trivia quiz.

Who did Pat Smith beat in the 1991 NCAA finals to win his 2nd NCAA title?

 

[nitlion6]

Time for a trivia quiz.

Who did Pat Smith beat in the 1991 NCAA finals to win his 2nd NCAA title?

A pretty good ***keye.

 

[NoVa Lion]

A pretty good ***keye.

Correct, then Hawkeye & now Buckeye Tom Ryan.

 

[NothingMeaningful]

And unlike Dake, Stieber was a bonus machine for most of his career.

Dake had 83 bonus point victories in 137 overall wins. That includes 44 pins, 9 tech falls, and 30 majors. I think he had 18 pins in 37 matches his senior year.

 

[PSUcup1]

Dake had 83 bonus point victories in 137 overall wins. That includes 44 pins, 9 tech falls, and 30 majors. I think he had 18 pins in 37 matches his senior year.

he had 14 bonus point wins in 36 bouts as a freshman (7 falls)
he had 20 bonus point wins in 33 bouts as a soph (7 falls)

so very impressive, but maybe not quite a BP machine those first 2 years

21 BP wins out of 35 bouts as a JR (12 falls)
28 BP wins out of 37 bouts as a SR (18 falls)

 

[El-Jefe]

OK, but now compare to Stieber:

Year, W-L, Dec, MD, TF, F, Bonus %, Most Dominant
FR: 18-2, 6-2, 1-0, 1-0, 10-0, 60%, 4.05
SO: 26-1, 2-1, 2-0, 7-0, 15-0, 89%, 5.04
JR: 28-1, 2-1, 7-0, 11-0, 8-0, 90%, 4.62
SR: 29-0, 5-0, 4-0, 8-0, 12-0, 83%, 4.93
Career: 101-4, 15-4, 14-0, 27-0, 45-0, 82%, 4.70

Of his 19 regular decision matches, 10 were against national champs (Ramos 4x, Oliver 2x, Zain 3x, Ashnault). Another 3 were against national finalists (Carter, Port 2x).

3 of his 4 career losses were to national champs (Oliver, Ramos, Zain). The other was as a FR to Dardanes.

Comparing bonus to Dake: Stieber's FR year was equivalent to Dake's JR year -- and Stieber faced Carter, Dardanes 2x, Ramos 2x, Oliver 2x that year.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Isnt Logie like top 3 in Natty points too? Maybe even #1?

 

[El-Jefe]

Isnt Logie like top 3 in Natty points too? Maybe even #1?

I'm too lazy to look up the nationals match lists for the other 3 ... but here are Stieber's results:
20-0, 6 dec, 2 MD, 5 TF, 7 pins, 70% bonus, 4.65 Most Dominant.

This includes wins over nationals champs: Zain (dec), Brewer (TF), Ramos (dec 2x), Oliver (dec); and national finalists: Port (dec), Carter (MD), Mayes (WBF).

 

[NothingMeaningful]

OK, but now compare to Stieber:

Year, W-L, Dec, MD, TF, F, Bonus %, Most Dominant
FR: 18-2, 6-2, 1-0, 1-0, 10-0, 60%, 4.05
SO: 26-1, 2-1, 2-0, 7-0, 15-0, 89%, 5.04
JR: 28-1, 2-1, 7-0, 11-0, 8-0, 90%, 4.62
SR: 29-0, 5-0, 4-0, 8-0, 12-0, 83%, 4.93
Career: 101-4, 15-4, 14-0, 27-0, 45-0, 82%, 4.70

Of his 19 regular decision matches, 10 were against national champs (Ramos 4x, Oliver 2x, Zain 3x, Ashnault). Another 3 were against national finalists (Carter, Port 2x).

3 of his 4 career losses were to national champs (Oliver, Ramos, Zain). The other was as a FR to Dardanes.

Comparing bonus to Dake: Stieber's FR year was equivalent to Dake's JR year -- and Stieber faced Carter, Dardanes 2x, Ramos 2x, Oliver 2x that year.

So, your position is that anyone whose bonus record doesn't match that of Stieber's is not a "bonus machine." Got it. That really narrows down the list of those in history who qualify as a "bonus machine."

 

[El-Jefe]

So, your position is that anyone whose bonus record doesn't match that of Stieber's is not a "bonus machine." Got it. That really narrows down the list of those in history who qualify as a "bonus machine."

That's not my position, but it is defensible: machines produce results regularly, so it has to be a high rate.

Where would you draw the line?

Dake was very good at bonus his last 2 years. Feel free to look up the data for his first 2 years.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

That's not my position, but it is defensible: machines produce results regularly, so it has to be a high rate.

Where would you draw the line?

Dake was very good at bonus his last 2 years. Feel free to look up the data for his first 2 years.

We can dance around it all we want, but Dake>Stieber all day - full time bonus machine or not.

We saw how little that meant when Dake went up against DT.

All that said, Cael uber alles

 

[El-Jefe]

We can dance around it all we want, but Dake>Stieber all day - full time bonus machine or not.

We saw how little that meant when Dake went up against DT.

All that said, Cael uber alles

I'm good with the argument that Dake was better because of his wins over future World Champ Taylor and Olympian Molinaro.

I'm far less persuaded by arguments that Dake was better due to criteria where Stieber out-performed him.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I'm good with the argument that Dake was better because of his wins over future World Champ Taylor and Olympian Molinaro.

I'm far less persuaded by arguments that Dake was better due to criteria where Stieber out-performed him.

I have heard you with unmistakable clarity (1:50 in)

 

[Conewago]

Couldn't you make the same argument to put Stieber equivalent to or ahead of Dake? (Asterisks aside.)

His finals wins were Oliver (2x champ), Ramos (won the next year), Port (2x finalist), and Carter. Stieber beat Zain in the semis the year he beat Carter in the finals. And unlike Dake, Stieber was a bonus machine for most of his career.

I see your point about the level of Stieber's competition.

On the other hand, he didn't win that finals match against Oliver. If you pull out a wrestling rule book written by the NFHS, you'll see that a crotch lock situation like that one with Oliver is a textbook takedown. It should have been called as such. And here's the thing: that situation was at a point of the match, right at the end, where that bad call was the most important moment of the entire thing. That match can never have its asterisk taken away, much like Chris Perry's semi "win" over Evans, or Johnny Hendricks' "win" over Churella. There are certain select calls (thankfully not that many) that overshadow virtually every other moment in a given match.

Second, in fairness to Zain, we all remember what choice Stieber took against Zain in those two subsequent matches and it wasn't down. That's not a knock against Stieber; he did what he had to do to win. On the other hand, I can't recall Dake ever needing to do something like that to win.

Third, in my opinion, Dake was more dominant in his finals matches, at least cumulatively over all 4 of them. That he didn't turn it on, and could have been hit for stalling against St. John, is an indictment against his style of wrestling .... but it doesn't change the fact that he dominated those matches since it means he was in position to do even more. Also, I still haven't gotten over how badly he rode Frank (my favorite wrestler at that time).

That's nothing against Stieber, who is one of the best in the history of the sport. But, no, Dake was definitely better.

 

[tomsc]

I would go
Cael
2 loss Bo
Dake
Smith
No respect Steiber

Don't want to nitpick, but for accuracy Bo had 3 losses: Jackson and Martin his FR year and Martin his SO year. Still--one phenomenal career and could very easily have been the 5th 4-timer!

 

[El-Jefe]

I see your point about the level of Stieber's competition.

On the other hand, he didn't win that finals match against Oliver. If you pull out a wrestling rule book written by the NFHS, you'll see that a crotch lock situation like that one with Oliver is a textbook takedown. It should have been called as such. And here's the thing: that situation was at a point of the match, right at the end, where that bad call was the most important moment of the entire thing. That match can never have its asterisk taken away, much like Chris Perry's semi "win" over Evans, or Johnny Hendricks' "win" over Churella. There are certain select calls (thankfully not that many) that overshadow virtually every other moment in a given match.

Second, in fairness to Zain, we all remember what choice Stieber took against Zain in those two subsequent matches and it wasn't down. That's not a knock against Stieber; he did what he had to do to win. On the other hand, I can't recall Dake ever needing to do something like that to win.

Third, in my opinion, Dake was more dominant in his finals matches, at least cumulatively over all 4 of them. That he didn't turn it on, and could have been hit for stalling against St. John, is an indictment against his style of wrestling .... but it doesn't change the fact that he dominated those matches since it means he was in position to do even more. Also, I still haven't gotten over how badly he rode Frank (my favorite wrestler at that time).

That's nothing against Stieber, who is one of the best in the history of the sport. But, no, Dake was definitely better.

1. He got his hand raised.

2. He's a lesser champ because he didn't choose bottom? WTF.

3. Fundamental question about the sport: is the point to score points toward pinning your opponent, or to control the match and win by smaller margins than you are capable of?

I'll buy that Dake was better. Because of his wins over a future world champ.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Don't want to nitpick, but for accuracy Bo had 3 losses: Jackson and Martin his FR year and Martin his SO year. Still--one phenomenal career and could very easily have been the 5th 4-timer!

Well aware, check what I was responding too.

 

[tomsc]

Well aware, check what I was responding too.

Gotcha--without Martin's roll through, you were ranking Bo as a 4-timer!

 

[District four]

So, your position is that anyone whose bonus record doesn't match that of Stieber's is not a "bonus machine." Got it. That really narrows down the list of those in history who qualify as a "bonus machine."

No it means dake doesn't come close to a bonus machine. I never watched a dake match with the idea it would be anything close to a bonus

 

[Conewago]

1. He got his hand raised.

2. He's a lesser champ because he didn't choose bottom? WTF.

3. Fundamental question about the sport: is the point to score points toward pinning your opponent, or to control the match and win by smaller margins than you are capable of?

I'll buy that Dake was better. Because of his wins over a future world champ.

#1: Got his hand raised .... well, we're arguing in circles. My point is very simple: Oliver took Stieber down. End of story.
#2: I didn't say he's a "lesser champ." I very clearly did not say that. What I said was that Dake never had to do such a thing as giving up on a particular position. Moving on.
#3: Well, certainly, the point is to score points toward pinning your opponent. On the other hand, a wrestler's ability to do so is subjective. It can be only learned on the mat and in national finals, most wrestlers won't push the limits too hard, for natural reasons. God knows Dan Gable learned the hard way against Larry Owings; he went for the pin late, and it backfired. In any case, would you argue that Stieber was trying to pin Retherford in their two final matches? I wouldn't. I would argue he wrestled a smart, controlled, conservative match. That's not against the rules, of course, and he didn't stall.

You admit Dake was better, though. Fair enough.

 

[RoarLions1]

Most points scored? Toughest competition? Era? Dominance (bonus point wins at NCAA's)? Everyone's criteria will have at least a slight difference, and maybe a big difference. Here's the top-20 NCAA Championship point scorers (not just 4-timers), all-time, obviously impacted by the years that freshmen could not wrestle...4-timers in bold red...

1 Cael Sanderson Iowa State 2002 107.5
2 Logan Stieber Ohio State 2015 103.5
3 Ed Banach Iowa 1983 102.5
4 Mark Churella Michigan 1979 99.5
5 David Taylor Penn State 2014 99
6 Pat Smith Oklahoma State 1994 98.5
7 Jason Nolf Penn State 2019 98
8 Bo Nickal Penn State 2019 95.5
9 Darryl Burley Lehigh 1983 95
10 Ed Ruth Penn State 2014 94.5
11 Zain Retherford Penn State 2014 93.5
12 Kyle Dake Cornell 2013 93
13 Alex Dieringer Oklahoma State 2016 93
14 Gene Mills Syracuse 1981 93
15 Stephen Neal Cal State-Bakersfield 1999 92
16 Lincoln McIlravy Iowa 1997 90
17 Jake Herbert Northwestern 2009 90
18 Jim Zalesky Iowa 1984 89.5
19 Kyle Snyder Ohio State 2018 89
20 Ben Askren Missouri 2007 89

 

[PSUcup1]

Most points scored? Toughest competition? Era? Dominance (bonus point wins at NCAA's)? Everyone's criteria will have at least a slight difference, and maybe a big difference. Here's the top-20 NCAA Championship point scorers (not just 4-timers), all-time, obviously impacted by the years that freshmen could not wrestle...4-timers in bold red...

1 Cael Sanderson Iowa State 2002 107.5
2 Logan Stieber Ohio State 2015 103.5
3 Ed Banach Iowa 1983 102.5
4 Mark Churella Michigan 1979 99.5
5 David Taylor Penn State 2014 99
6 Pat Smith Oklahoma State 1994 98.5
7 Jason Nolf Penn State 2019 98
8 Bo Nickal Penn State 2019 95.5
9 Darryl Burley Lehigh 1983 95
10 Ed Ruth Penn State 2014 94.5
11 Zain Retherford Penn State 2014 93.5
12 Kyle Dake Cornell 2013 93
13 Alex Dieringer Oklahoma State 2016 93
14 Gene Mills Syracuse 1981 93
15 Stephen Neal Cal State-Bakersfield 1999 92
16 Lincoln McIlravy Iowa 1997 90
17 Jake Herbert Northwestern 2009 90
18 Jim Zalesky Iowa 1984 89.5
19 Kyle Snyder Ohio State 2018 89
20 Ben Askren Missouri 2007 89

shows you how dominant DT was with "only" being a 2X champ

 

[tomsc]

Most points scored? Toughest competition? Era? Dominance (bonus point wins at NCAA's)? Everyone's criteria will have at least a slight difference, and maybe a big difference. Here's the top-20 NCAA Championship point scorers (not just 4-timers), all-time, obviously impacted by the years that freshmen could not wrestle...4-timers in bold red...

1 Cael Sanderson Iowa State 2002 107.5
2 Logan Stieber Ohio State 2015 103.5
3 Ed Banach Iowa 1983 102.5
4 Mark Churella Michigan 1979 99.5
5 David Taylor Penn State 2014 99
6 Pat Smith Oklahoma State 1994 98.5
7 Jason Nolf Penn State 2019 98
8 Bo Nickal Penn State 2019 95.5
9 Darryl Burley Lehigh 1983 95
10 Ed Ruth Penn State 2014 94.5
11 Zain Retherford Penn State 2014 93.5
12 Kyle Dake Cornell 2013 93
13 Alex Dieringer Oklahoma State 2016 93
14 Gene Mills Syracuse 1981 93
15 Stephen Neal Cal State-Bakersfield 1999 92
16 Lincoln McIlravy Iowa 1997 90
17 Jake Herbert Northwestern 2009 90
18 Jim Zalesky Iowa 1984 89.5
19 Kyle Snyder Ohio State 2018 89
20 Ben Askren Missouri 2007 89

Interesting that while PSU has 5 of top 11 all-time scorers, no other school has more than 1 in the top 12.

 

[tomsc]

Most points scored? Toughest competition? Era? Dominance (bonus point wins at NCAA's)? Everyone's criteria will have at least a slight difference, and maybe a big difference. Here's the top-20 NCAA Championship point scorers (not just 4-timers), all-time, obviously impacted by the years that freshmen could not wrestle...4-timers in bold red...

1 Cael Sanderson Iowa State 2002 107.5
2 Logan Stieber Ohio State 2015 103.5
3 Ed Banach Iowa 1983 102.5
4 Mark Churella Michigan 1979 99.5
5 David Taylor Penn State 2014 99
6 Pat Smith Oklahoma State 1994 98.5
7 Jason Nolf Penn State 2019 98
8 Bo Nickal Penn State 2019 95.5
9 Darryl Burley Lehigh 1983 95
10 Ed Ruth Penn State 2014 94.5
11 Zain Retherford Penn State 2014 93.5
12 Kyle Dake Cornell 2013 93
13 Alex Dieringer Oklahoma State 2016 93
14 Gene Mills Syracuse 1981 93
15 Stephen Neal Cal State-Bakersfield 1999 92
16 Lincoln McIlravy Iowa 1997 90
17 Jake Herbert Northwestern 2009 90
18 Jim Zalesky Iowa 1984 89.5
19 Kyle Snyder Ohio State 2018 89
20 Ben Askren Missouri 2007 89

Interesting that while PSU has 5 of top 11 all-time scorers, no other school has more than 1 in the top 12.

 

[PSUer1989]

Interesting that while PSU has 5 of top 11 all-time scorers, no other school has more than 1 in the top 12.

That is pretty incredible. Were there significant scoring changes that in the last decade to help account for that, or is it all a matter of PSU prioritizing scoring bonus points?

 

[NoVa Lion]

That is pretty incredible. Were there significant scoring changes that in the last decade to help account for that, or is it all a matter of PSU prioritizing scoring bonus points?

Actually, the only recent scoring change has recent wrestlers scoring fewer points. Until recently (2014 or so) NCAAs were scored as a 64 man bracket meaning when you won your first round (round of 32 if you didn't have a pigtail) you got 2 advancement points. Now it is scored as a 32 man bracket so first pigtails and first round (round of 32) only get 1 advancement point. Not a huge difference but if prior to 2014 you were in a weight with pigtails all 4 years you wrestled that was an extra 4 team points you scored at NCAAs.

 

[CurtisLoew40]

How deep would Cael have went in his TF year?


Dont get me wrong, i am 100% Cael as GOAT.


Edit. There are SEVERAL 3xers I would rank above Steiber.

Didn't Cael lose multiple times his freshman year? Only knock on him was competition was weak.

To me three timers who only had three years are just as impressive as a four timer. The Japanese guy from Oklahoma state may be number one all time.

Dake might be my number 1 because who he did it against. Plus he was always challenging himself. Not the most exciting tho.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

I only heard of one, which was emphatically avenged.

 

[PSUcup1]

Actually, the only recent scoring change has recent wrestlers scoring fewer points. Until recently (2014 or so) NCAAs were scored as a 64 man bracket meaning when you won your first round (round of 32 if you didn't have a pigtail) you got 2 advancement points. Now it is scored as a 32 man bracket so first pigtails and first round (round of 32) only get 1 advancement point. Not a huge difference but if prior to 2014 you were in a weight with pigtails all 4 years you wrestled that was an extra 4 team points you scored at NCAAs.

But scoring more total points in a match is easier now with the 4 second 4 point NF. Before a 5 second hold only garnered 3 NF points

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

But scoring more total points in a match is easier now with the 4 second 4 point NF. Before a 5 second hold only garnered 3 NF points

This also made a TF easier to achieve, possibly creating less pins.

 

[nitlion6]

That is pretty incredible. Were there significant scoring changes that in the last decade to help account for that, or is it all a matter of PSU prioritizing scoring bonus points?

It is because Cael paid all of the natural born champs to come to Penn State at the same time.