I understand the injury thing...I really do, but when our conference championships arent AS important and march is the ONLY thing, seems we could be really watering things down.
thoughts?
Real talk...are MFF an issue now and is this the beginning of big problem down the road
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I understand the injury thing...I really do, but when our conference championships arent AS important and march is the ONLY thing, seems we could be really watering things down.
thoughts?
I think that this year could be merely anomalous and any attempt to fix might be an over-correction to a problem that might not be an actual trend, but maybe it is a trend. If there's a desire to correct, I think one way to fix would be to make conference finishes count more in the NCAA seeding calculation. But that fix would necessarily diminish the regular season and wasn't it just ten minutes ago that everyone was trying to figure out ways to make duals matter more?
On another level, I'm not a fan of the allocation system, all based on the idea that people "earn" their spots even before the conference tournaments begin.
Given how people have defaulted out of these tournaments for years now, and people are "entitled" to a spot at the big dance, I can't help but keep asking the same question over and over again: why EVEN HAVE the conference tournaments? Just put the people into the big dance because they've already "earned" their spots.
Given how people have defaulted out of these tournaments for years now, and people are "entitled" to a spot at the big dance, I can't help but keep asking the same question over and over again: why EVEN HAVE the conference tournaments? Just put the people into the big dance because they've already "earned" their spots.
You have y
You have your conference tournaments because it does allow low seeded wrestlers to earn a trip to NCAA's with a good weekend. Everybody likes a Cinderella story unless your the one who lost.
Yes, I will give you that, and on the flipside, that occasional person who "earns" a spot, but doesn't qualify after the conference tournament (although the wild card system usually gets them in).
I don't like the idea of medical forfeit for no reason. Everyone knew that Nolf was injured and I assume Suriano was also since he didn't compete in duals for the last month or two. I don't know what the issue was with Kemerer but I have no reason to think there wasn't some type of injury. All of these guys did place high enough to punch their ticket to NCAAs.
Conference championships are mostly seen as a qualifier for NCAAs. Once you qualify and you have some issue that could get made worse by continuing to compete there is an incentive to forfeit the remaining matches.
What I really dislike is the whole Suriano scenario from last year just showing up to take the whistle and forfeit to get an at large spot and then not compete. I don't know the whole story and probably never will with that.
I don't know how you would correct this for guys that did compete far enough to qualify. If you penalize their seed at NCAA the problem is that for some guys you aren't so much penalizing them as you are penalizing the poor guy that has to face them early in the tournament.
Conference championships are mostly seen as a qualifier for NCAAs. Once you qualify and you have some issue that could get made worse by continuing to compete there is an incentive to forfeit the remaining matches.
What I really dislike is the whole Suriano scenario from last year just showing up to take the whistle and forfeit to get an at large spot and then not compete. I don't know the whole story and probably never will with that.
I don't know how you would correct this for guys that did compete far enough to qualify. If you penalize their seed at NCAA the problem is that for some guys you aren't so much penalizing them as you are penalizing the poor guy that has to face them early in the tournament.
Kyle Snyder wouldn't have wrestled at NCAA's one of the last 2 yrs if it were not for conference tourney because he didn't have enough matches going into tourney. So the need for the conference tourney is there for people that didn't wrestle enough during the regular season for one reason or another. The conference tournament allows them to "steal a spot." If someone had a good season and then crapped the bed at conferences, they still will get "at large"
I like it the way it is now..I think it's the fairest way to get the best wrestlers at the NCAA's
As far as the MFF's..don't know the answer except for seeding ramifications, but even that don't work since it screws someone. Think about it, all these other wrestlers at 157 just care about being on other side of Nolf. So if Nolf a 4 seed, it screws the 1, so you can't drop these guys too far.
Well the NCAA can combat this trend by seeding Nicky third or fourth at 125.
4th would be a blessing for Nick..getting Cruz in semi's. That's the whole problem with seeding compared to reality.
Yes Cruz will get 1 seed (most of us would take, Nick, Lee or Nato in that match)
Hidlay gets 1 seed..he not even close to the guys like Nolf/Kem
Lewis from Mizzou..gets 3 seed over guys like Jordan/ Amine/Kutler because he don't wrestle anyone.
McFadden with 1 or 2 seed..laughable. He'd be 4-6 in B1Gs
I wish they would just go with a "let's be real" philosophy and seed accordingly but I understand they have to use some set of rules.
I wonder if the seeding committee will take last year's NCAA's seeding into consideration. NS got a #3 seed (not unrealistic) despite not wrestling B1G's. Now the next year he Mfft's to 6th place. Maybe they will hold last year's against him and say, "not 2 years in a row!"
It won't change until there is something in place to discourage it from happening. Start penalizing guys for dodging dual meets and the seeding becomes a real issue at the conference tournaments.
i.e. If you are injured, you have to see an Independent BigTen Doctor. If/when they clear you to wrestle, you should have to wrestle the next available match. If you chose to dodge the guy because its your first match back, wedding, etc. it counts as a loss and you are ranked according to that. This would put more weight on the conference tournament as well, in order to get your seed back, you have to wrestle. Guy A gets to the semi's and MFF, the next two matches are losses and he is seeded accordingly meaning a 1/2 seed could become a 7/8 seed and have a completely different path to a title. It's going to hurt the Buckeyes more than anyone as they usually have scheduling conflicts that are more important than dual meets.
JMHO
i.e. If you are injured, you have to see an Independent BigTen Doctor. If/when they clear you to wrestle, you should have to wrestle the next available match. If you chose to dodge the guy because its your first match back, wedding, etc. it counts as a loss and you are ranked according to that. This would put more weight on the conference tournament as well, in order to get your seed back, you have to wrestle. Guy A gets to the semi's and MFF, the next two matches are losses and he is seeded accordingly meaning a 1/2 seed could become a 7/8 seed and have a completely different path to a title. It's going to hurt the Buckeyes more than anyone as they usually have scheduling conflicts that are more important than dual meets.
JMHO
I like that, but when I tell you it hurts and you say it doesn't and then I really get hurt cause I do wrestle the next match... (I'll seek a cruiseliner)...It won't change until there is something in place to discourage it from happening. Start penalizing guys for dodging dual meets and the seeding becomes a real issue at the conference tournaments.
i.e. If you are injured, you have to see an Independent BigTen Doctor. If/when they clear you to wrestle, you should have to wrestle the next available match. If you chose to dodge the guy because its your first match back, wedding, etc. it counts as a loss and you are ranked according to that. This would put more weight on the conference tournament as well, in order to get your seed back, you have to wrestle. Guy A gets to the semi's and MFF, the next two matches are losses and he is seeded accordingly meaning a 1/2 seed could become a 7/8 seed and have a completely different path to a title. It's going to hurt the Buckeyes more than anyone as they usually have scheduling conflicts that are more important than dual meets.
This is backward. Snyder would've qualified for nationals regardless. His lack of college matches was because he could. If the rules were different, he would've gotten enough matches.
I don't like the rash of MFFs but the way to deal with it is in NCAA seeding. The absolute worst thing to do is make guys wrestle thru legitimate injuries for no real reason and get more seriously injured.
Yes, this scenario triggers liability implications. Plus, there’s no diagnostic test for “pain.” None. It’s purely subjective, and can be REAL even in the absence of obvious injury. That’s one of the reasons we have an opioid crisis in the US.
How do you feel about an Injured Reserve similar to other pro sports? Short term IR vs Long Term IR depending on injury? It's something we (my circle of friends) have been discussing for the past year and seems like a plausible solution to legit injuries but would be interested in others opinions.
I think you take the wrestlers word on it regardless, they go on a Injured Reserve status that wouldn't allow week to week misses. It would at least eliminate the one off matches that Tan Tom is infamous for. Just a thought and I get that there is no perfect solution.
Another way to approach it would be to make the conference championship a team event. Pigtail with bottom teams, then eight wrestle with The top four teams having a bye to wrestle those four victors - Result the top wrestlers would only compete three times.
NCAA seedlings based on season and team competition at conference championship. Let the NCAA continue the current structure.
NCAA seedlings based on season and team competition at conference championship. Let the NCAA continue the current structure.
the reason IR exists in pro sports is due to roster limitations. in baseball you have a 25 man roster. putting someone on the DL allows you to replace them on the roster with another player from another distinct pool (the minor leagues). college sports don't really have that same limitation, everyone is in the same pool of players (excluding redshirts). in order for the IR to become a thing in college sports, you would first need to create those distinct pools and effectively stand in the way of particular players seeing the field.
Dude, it used to be allocated based on prior years results. Give me a better formula.
Sorry to dwell, Suriano and Nolf earned there spot... not sure of your implications.
Oh, I know the old system all too well. I'm just saying that it sounds odd to me that people "earn" their spot to the big dance, then to only have to wrestle again at the conference tournament to earn their spot an apparent second time.
In the most egregious cases, many don't even have to wrestle and can default their way into the big dance. I have a difficult time with the word "earned" when that happens.
As for my better formula, you wouldn't want to hear it, and I find arguing on forums pointless, so I'll leave it at that.
Context, please.
Who were the 12 allocated B1G wrestlers who MFF's? Other than Nolf, Kemerer, and Jersey Kid, how many were top guys? It kind of sucks about losing three top guys, including two who had not yet lost, but I can't get too worked up about guys MFFing out of a 5th or 7th place match.
Who were the 12 allocated B1G wrestlers who MFF's? Other than Nolf, Kemerer, and Jersey Kid, how many were top guys? It kind of sucks about losing three top guys, including two who had not yet lost, but I can't get too worked up about guys MFFing out of a 5th or 7th place match.
Your question raises a question I had, because I wasn't clear whether 12 MFFs = 12 wrestlers, or 12 MFFs by some lesser number or wrestlers, given that guys forfeiting into the consi bracket then have additional MFFs to determine placement. If the latter, which I think is the case, the problem is perhaps being overstated.
Ha Ha! Well played, sir. But there's a difference between diagnosing and inflicting, even though Zain does the latter with surgical precision.
Long time lurker......
I find it pretty low class for a professional orgnization (if Flo can be classified as such) to post "LOL" at 2 kids that were injured.
As far as the medical forfeit, this is difficult. This is a really brutal sport with todays athletes getting stronger and faster. Injuries happen after a long season and I can see coaches protecting their kids that are banged up.
Maybe assign the NCAA spot to a team rather than an individual. That way Cael could have not risked Jason at all and the tournement would have had a backup going full out to try and win matches to qualify the spot.
I find it pretty low class for a professional orgnization (if Flo can be classified as such) to post "LOL" at 2 kids that were injured.
As far as the medical forfeit, this is difficult. This is a really brutal sport with todays athletes getting stronger and faster. Injuries happen after a long season and I can see coaches protecting their kids that are banged up.
Maybe assign the NCAA spot to a team rather than an individual. That way Cael could have not risked Jason at all and the tournement would have had a backup going full out to try and win matches to qualify the spot.
C'mon. The Flo tweet was about two kids sharing the same podium spot, something you don't see everyday, and an amusing visual. It wasn't about injuries.
The Nolf / Kemerer, shared podium photo had an extremely high-character ending. Both guys congratulated (maybe "congratulated" is not the right word here) the other as they were departing the podium. Off the mat, these guys are friends, and that level of sportsmanship is beyond words for me...and speaks volumes about both of them.
Just spitballing here...What if NCAA seeding was based on a points system for the entire season? Win against a ranked opponent equals X number of points based on ranking, unranked opponent equals less points, placement in conference tourney equals X points based on placement. You don't wrestle a match during the season, you can't get any points. You default out of your tourney, you lose points based on your finish. I can see some problems; What about the guy who did not get a chance at earning points because someone "ducks" them or defaults out. What about the guy that forfeits out in the first round to get more wins in the wrestle backs etc... Again, just spitballing.
etc... Again, just spitballing.
who is doing the rankings?Just spitballing here...What if NCAA seeding was based on a points system for the entire season? Win against a ranked opponent equals X number of points based on ranking, unranked opponent equals less points, placement in conference tourney equals X points based on placement. You don't wrestle a match during the season, you can't get any points. You default out of your tourney, you lose points based on your finish. I can see some problems; What about the guy who did not get a chance at earning points because someone "ducks" them or defaults out. What about the guy that forfeits out in the first round to get more wins in the wrestle backs
I think that's what they would like to happen! 1......Cruz, 2......Tomasello, 3........Lee, 4.......Suriano
Yes I get that it's a different concept and is in place in professional sports for a different reason than the one we are talking about here. I guess what I'm thinking it would accomplish is week in and week out missing matches. Wrestler A goes on Friday against an unranked kid then misses a ranked matchup on Sunday due to "injury". If you implement Parameters based on injuries that would require them to miss time, that would penalize guys for doing that and in theory create change. I do think a really quick way to remedy a lot of this is treating a MFF like an actual loss.
Good point of view and appreciate the stance.
It makes sense. Kind of like ATP/WTA tennis. If a guy misses significant time, you get some tough early draws, but it would just have to be something that is accepted. For example, Serena Williams will be unseeded this week at Indian Wells. It would take a lot of effort to make this viable, but it could be done.Just spitballing here...What if NCAA seeding was based on a points system for the entire season? Win against a ranked opponent equals X number of points based on ranking, unranked opponent equals less points, placement in conference tourney equals X points based on placement. You don't wrestle a match during the season, you can't get any points. You default out of your tourney, you lose points based on your finish. I can see some problems; What about the guy who did not get a chance at earning points because someone "ducks" them or defaults out. What about the guy that forfeits out in the first round to get more wins in the wrestle backs
The biggest problem would be working out the conference tournaments. Obviously, you can't have Alex Marinelli earning the same seeding points as Demetrius Romero and Fritz Hoehn
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I think if you force a guy to miss extra time if he's injured then coaches will just say they sat a guy for a different reason. They don't owe it to anybody to explain why they sat a guy. "He was a little banged up" will turn into "I just thought (other guy) gave us a better chance to win".
I'm good with giving a guy a loss for a MFF but I honestly don't think it would have a big impact. For dual meets you can just call a different guy the starter and he would get the loss. For conference tourneys I think the guys MFF-ing would make the same decision with or without the loss, but that's entirely a guess.
