Resigning vs Being Terminated

[flavorguy]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

 

[LionJim]

Hang in there, man. Be there for her.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Don’t have answers, thought it would be cool to put a wire on her and catch her manager saying/doing something actionable.

 

[interrobang]

If she is fired, does she get a severance?

 

[flavorguy]

Not if she is terminated for Poor Performance. Just the standard two weeks plus unused accrued vacation...

 

[cment]

As a business owner here are my thoughts.

1. It is better to resign. Future employers will ask her about her exit from the company. You never know who her next boss is friends with, hires, meets that knows the circumstance 9f your wife's exit. Don't lie.

2. She can try, but her ex-employer can fight it if she is fired for cause/performance.

It is a great job market out there, my advice is resign and move on.

 

[Zenophile]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

Like most things, the terms of a separation can be negotiated, including the employer agreeing to not contesting her application for unemployment.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Is she in a position to negotiate terms of separation? If not, IMO, the best bet is resignation unless she plans to sue for discrimination of some sort.

 

[interrobang]

Is there any retirement/pension at play here?

 

[Sooner Lion]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

I am a VP in a multi-national company. I have never seen an instance where an employee was put on a PIP because the boss just did not like him or her. These decisions are rarely made by a single individual. It is usually input from two or more managers.

My suggestion. Have your wife request a meeting with her manager and a senior HR manager. Have her listen to why they put her on a 90 day PIP. Have her ask for help (training, etc.) to ensure she has everything at her disposal to meet the goals and objectives of the PIP. She should request weekly meetings with her manager and the senior HR manager to discuss the progress. Should it not work, she should document the entire process. This will make it extraordinarily difficult for a company to fire without providing a severance package.

This is a tremendous opportunity for your wife to step up and show the company she can make a difference. When we interview, we are looking for leaders who have overcome set backs and challenges in their careers. The opportunity is there for your wife to overcome the challenge and for that to be part of her story when she interviews for new opportunities.

 

[flavorguy]

Is there any retirement/pension at play here?

No - typical 401K. Health Insurance is on my company's plan..

 

[flavorguy]

We have reason to believe that her boss is also on a PIP... the entire department is under performing...

The weekly meetings are taking place and he is not providing any clear guidance - "it is your PIP..." is a common refrain.... all the issues that she is being questioned on are subjective and never consistent

 

[Delco Lion]

27 years is a long time to be with a company. I can't imagine they would only give her two weeks, PIP plan or not. How old is your wife? Companies are very sensitive about letting people go, especially women in their 50's. One positive thing, most companies today will only give out dates of employment and are very cautious about talking about former employees. Hopefully she has some good references from her employer and former managers. Back in the day, being fired did have a stigma attached to it. It still does today, but nothing like 20-30 years ago.

 

[1000_OaksLion]

Smart employers don't provide prospective employers the reason or cause for the separation. Providing more than job title and dates of employment can only get you in trouble.
Here in CA if you're terminated for performance you will most likely qualify for unemployment.

 

[psulongago]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?
1. Terminated you can collect unemployment
2. Resign - no unemployment
3. A company cannot bad mouth you, potential big law suit if they do and you can prove it to the extent it costs you a position
4. It is no crime to be "down sized" and that is the story going forward
5. Resign and likely no termination package
6. If you are down sized particularly after 27 years you should be entitled to an exit package
7. Leave on your own and quite likely nothing

Thanks in advance...

 

[Frabjous]

2) yes
3) no
- Save any documents that talk about her job performance. The documents often contradict what the company says.
-Consider speaking to an attorney now to navigate all this. If her company has a brain in its head, it is worried about an age or gender lawsuit. The company does not need to know that you are speaking with an attorney.
-Never agree to binding arbitration. The cards are stacked in favor of the company.
-The HR department is never your friend (sounds like you know this).

Good luck.

 

[Bob78]

I am a VP in a multi-national company. I have never seen an instance where an employee was put on a PIP because the boss just did not like him or her. These decisions are rarely made by a single individual. It is usually input from two or more managers.

My suggestion. Have your wife request a meeting with her manager and a senior HR manager. Have her listen to why they put her on a 90 day PIP. Have her ask for help (training, etc.) to ensure she has everything at her disposal to meet the goals and objectives of the PIP. She should request weekly meetings with her manager and the senior HR manager to discuss the progress. Should it not work, she should document the entire process. This will make it extraordinarily difficult for a company to fire without providing a severance package.

This is a tremendous opportunity for your wife to step up and show the company she can make a difference. When we interview, we are looking for leaders who have overcome set backs and challenges in their careers. The opportunity is there for your wife to overcome the challenge and for that to be part of her story when she interviews for new opportunities.

This is good advice overall. She should be shooting for a reasonable severance package should she be termed. (e.g. 2 weeks per year up to X no. of months total, probably 3 or 4 in this case. Plus accrued/unused vacation). Don't resign. Downsizing happens, and downsizing is an acceptable reason for leaving in the eyes of the next potential employers.

The PIP needs to be specific wrt what the issues are, what the expectations are, the timing, etc. If she needs training or materials to help her meet the plan, the company needs to provide those. If the issues center around technical skills, asking for training is appropriate, for example.

She can also ask for consideration for a move to another dept., even if the company practice is to not transfer while on a plan. Companies don't want to trade off problems to the next dept., but will consider a move if the a good employee is just not a good fit for a specific job. They should want to play their players in their best positions... don't ask a DT to be CB. If it has to do with her mgmt. skills, maybe going to a staff position is a good option.

She has the plan in hand. After 27 years, and especially if she has a good track record, she should be given some tenure consideration and allowed to leave in a way that shows the company cares about its employees... unless she has done something egregiously wrong that is hurting morale or otherwise leaves a negative impact on her dept. Routine job performance is rarely that. It is worth appealing to their sense of fairness.

 

[CentexLion]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

So sorry to hear. I highly recommend this approach

 

[Parkland Fan]

2) yes
3) no
- Save any documents that talk about her job performance. The documents often contradict what the company says.
-Consider speaking to an attorney now to navigate all this. If her company has a brain in its head, it is worried about an age or gender lawsuit. The company does not need to know that you are speaking with an attorney.
-Never agree to binding arbitration. The cards are stacked in favor of the company.
-The HR department is never your friend (sounds like you know this).

Good luck.

She needs a good lawyer who specializes in white collar employment right now. I worked in the outplacement industry for a few years and was often in the next room when people were terminated. It's extremely emotional, and she should be prepared. That means having an attorney coaching her before it happens.
I also worked in HR, and yes, the wrong people do get fired.
In PA she could collect unemployment even if she is fired. The employer has the right to challenge but they usually don't because they are afraid of a future lawsuit. Not sure about NJ.
Hope it works out for both of you.

 

[flavorguy]

So sorry to hear. I highly recommend this approach

View embedded media

That cracked me up - one of my all time favorite movies!

 

[flavorguy]

She needs a good lawyer who specializes in white collar employment right now. I worked in the outplacement industry for a few years and was often in the next room when people were terminated. It's extremely emotional, and she should be prepared. That means having an attorney coaching her before it happens.
I also worked in HR, and yes, the wrong people do get fired.
In PA she could collect unemployment even if she is fired. The employer has the right to challenge but they usually don't because they are afraid of a future lawsuit. Not sure about NJ.
Hope it works out for both of you.

Parkland Fan - Parkland High School class of 1978 by the way...

 

[Obliviax]

I had a similar case years ago. I was told to be fired so I can get unemployment.

I'd contact an attorney. She is in a protected age group. I was fired dispite outperforming everyone. I was told I no longer got the culture. I even warned them when they fired me over the phone. Two years later they settled after is was clear they broke the law. I'd begin printing off key emails or saving then as PDFs. This is completely legal as you have a right to document your time but hr will tell you you can't.

Regardless, lots of time the fit no longer works. Churchill said 'success is many failures without losing enthusiasm'. My favorite is success is the best form of revenge. Use the energy in the most positive manner.

 

[cment]

I am a VP in a multi-national company. I have never seen an instance where an employee was put on a PIP because the boss just did not like him or her. These decisions are rarely made by a single individual. It is usually input from two or more managers.

My suggestion. Have your wife request a meeting with her manager and a senior HR manager. Have her listen to why they put her on a 90 day PIP. Have her ask for help (training, etc.) to ensure she has everything at her disposal to meet the goals and objectives of the PIP. She should request weekly meetings with her manager and the senior HR manager to discuss the progress. Should it not work, she should document the entire process. This will make it extraordinarily difficult for a company to fire without providing a severance package.

This is a tremendous opportunity for your wife to step up and show the company she can make a difference. When we interview, we are looking for leaders who have overcome set backs and challenges in their careers. The opportunity is there for your wife to overcome the challenge and for that to be part of her story when she interviews for new opportunities.

This is good advice overall. She should be shooting for a reasonable severance package should she be termed. (e.g. 2 weeks per year up to X no. of months total, probably 3 or 4 in this case. Plus accrued/unused vacation). Don't resign. Downsizing happens, and downsizing is an acceptable reason for leaving in the eyes of the next potential employers.

The PIP needs to be specific wrt what the issues are, what the expectations are, the timing, etc. If she needs training or materials to help her meet the plan, the company needs to provide those. If the issues center around technical skills, asking for training is appropriate, for example.

She can also ask for consideration for a move to another dept., even if the company practice is to not transfer while on a plan. Companies don't want to trade off problems to the next dept., but will consider a move if the a good employee is just not a good fit for a specific job. They should want to play their players in their best positions... don't ask a DT to be CB. If it has to do with her mgmt. skills, maybe going to a staff position is a good option.

She has the plan in hand. After 27 years, and especially if she has a good track record, she should be given some tenure consideration and allowed to leave in a way that shows the company cares about its employees... unless she has done something egregiously wrong that is hurting morale or otherwise leaves a negative impact on her dept. Routine job performance is rarely that. It is worth appealing to their sense of fairness.

I hear what you are saying, but she may be terminated for cause before the "downsizing" and any type of severance opportunity. If they cared about her tenure, it would already be evident. They do not.

The fact her boss may have a PIP himself only exasperates the issue.

Sure the company's plan could be to "shake the tree" to get people resigning and therefore no severance, but days of 10+ weeks of severance are way gone.

You know you are going to lose your job, but is fighting it out over the next 3 months worth it because of "possible" severance? Juste move on unless cash is tight.

 

[Cletus11]

Does your wife want to continue to work or retire? Is she starting to look for an interview for a new job. Headhunters are eveeywheee and are free for the person looking. I would have her start looking to see what is out there. Maybe something better than what she has and if she is still employed it looks better on the resume.

 

[bdgan]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

She won't get the 2 weeks severance if she resigns (unless negotiated).

She should get unemployment unless she was fired for cause. Besides, major employers seldom contest unemployment claims.

If I was your wife I'd go to my boss and negotiate something. She'll leave quietly, she gets her 2 weeks severance, maybe even a letter of recommendation. Good chance her boss would be happy to get rid of her so easily.

P.S. She gets her unused accrued vacation regardless unless there is some sort of use it or lose it policy. Her 401-k is hers.

 

[TheGLOV]

2) yes
3) no
- Save any documents that talk about her job performance. The documents often contradict what the company says.
-Consider speaking to an attorney now to navigate all this. If her company has a brain in its head, it is worried about an age or gender lawsuit. The company does not need to know that you are speaking with an attorney.
-Never agree to binding arbitration. The cards are stacked in favor of the company.
-The HR department is never your friend (sounds like you know this).

Good luck.

--

I agree about your comment about HR Departments. They are nothing more than "hatchet-men" for the company.

I have a M.S. in HR and it thoroughly disgusts me.

HR Dept.'s have turned into 'soccer-mom' departments.

 

[Uh Clem]

Termination for poor performance does not impact ability to collect unemployment compensation.

 

[Uh Clem]

Termination for poor performance does not impact ability to collect unemployment compensation.

 

[Norm Petersin]

If she wants out, the severance and UC can be negotiated. Some HR depts would agree to that as opposed to legal action by your wife.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

Unfortunately, as you know, there is virtually no chance of recovering from a PIP. I’ve only ever administrated PIPs, and not the receiving end. The best scenario may be for your wife to find another job before the 90 days are up.

Her present company will likely never comment on the circumstances of her leaving, because of the potential for lawsuits. They will provide her length of employment, her job title, and not much more.

Best of luck to your wife. I hope things work out.

 

[Norm Petersin]

If she wants out, the severance and UC can be negotiated. Some HR depts would agree to that as opposed to legal action by your wife.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Interesting situation...

My wife works for a major industrial company in NJ. She has been an employee for 27 years. For the past 3 years she was moved into a group/department which has been underperforming. The boss has never liked my wife and has basically scape goated for the past 3 years. My wife is a senior manager, and thru her own experiences with underperforming employees, knows that HR will almost always agree with the manager in terms of firing decisions.

In March, she was put on a 90 day PIP program. Also, as part of being identified as being on a PIP , she cannot interview for any other internal jobs. Bottom line, it is obvious - the writing is on the wall - she is being set up to be terminated.

So - she has two options

1) Duke it out and be fired
2) Resign

Questions:

1) For future prospective employers - can they discover that she was terminated? What does that mean for future job searches? Is it better to resign so this is not a blemish on her employment record?
2) If she is fired - can she collect unemployment?
3) If she resigns - can she collect unemployment?

Thanks in advance...

Unfortunately, as you know, there is virtually no chance of recovering from a PIP. I’ve only ever administrated PIPs, and not the receiving end. The best scenario may be for your wife to find another job before the 90 days are up.

Her present company will likely never comment on the circumstances of her leaving, because of the potential for lawsuits. They will provide her length of employment, her job title, and not much more.

Best of luck to your wife. I hope things work out.

 

[Glen]

Resignation can also be argued as a constructive discharge. A resign or be fired choice is really a discharge and will result in unemployment being awarded. The PIP conversations should be documented - requests for help being met with “its your PIP” is an indication the Company is not interested in improvemrent, but want a termination and would be effective in supporting it is a constructive discharge.
Termination for performance will not impact unemployment. After all, unemployment is there for those that cannot do the job vs. those discharged for violation of rules.

 

[step.eng69]

Like most things, the terms of a separation can be negotiated, including the employer agreeing to not contesting her application for unemployment.

Thanks Zeno, the best advice up to your post, I'm moving on to another thread.

 

[Mace54]

Been there. 15 years for an up and down semiconductor manufacturer who announced that they were shutting it down. They dragged the closure out for two years because they were still profitable, and then I saw where some of the higher paid experienced professionals in the ancillary departments were being pushed out. I was in one of those departments. I was given a crap rating during a review so I knew what was coming up. I decided to start looking. Luckily, I jumped ship just in time. My advice is that if she finds something comparable to move onto, get out ! If not, ride that thing out till the bloody end. If they force her out, she's more likely to get a severance.

 

[Mace54]

Been there. 15 years for an up and down semiconductor manufacturer who announced that they were shutting it down. They dragged the closure out for two years because they were still profitable, and then I saw where some of the higher paid experienced professionals in the ancillary departments were being pushed out. I was in one of those departments. I was given a crap rating during a review so I knew what was coming up. I decided to start looking. Luckily, I jumped ship just in time. My advice is that if she finds something comparable to move onto, get out ! If not, ride that thing out till the bloody end. If they force her out, she's more likely to get a severance.

 

[flavorguy]

Thanks for all of the helpful replies... much food for thought...

 

[TTman]

Smart employers don't provide prospective employers the reason or cause for the separation. Providing more than job title and dates of employment can only get you in trouble.
Here in CA if you're terminated for performance you will most likely qualify for unemployment.

I second this opinion...an former employer who undermines somebody's efforts to get a new job would open themselves up to a serious lawsuit. Having worked for a major corporation, the only info we would ever provide is that the person was employed from x to y dates...no other comment, positive or negative.

 

[PeetzPoolBoy]

Parkland Fan gave you great advice. Your wife needs to quickly consult with an employment attorney so that she turns the tables and becomes in control of her future instead of being a victim of some corporate pinheads. Once her employer learns that she has “retained counsel”, she will immediately be given better severance package consideration because of the combination of her age and gender.

Imho the best outcome is probably a “negotiated exit package” which allows your wife to resign.

 

[LionDeNittany]

Not if she is terminated for Poor Performance. Just the standard two weeks plus unused accrued vacation...

I just cannot believe this. A "major industrial" company would pay a better severance than this simply to prevent a suit.

She should hang on and get fired if that's what you have concluded. During that period hopefully she will find another job.

LdN