Robbie Howard this Friday?

[NittanyChris]

So, IF, Howard is fully healthy and ready to go (a big if), some questions:
1. Will Cael throw him into the Lion’s Den vs Spencer in his first ever college match?
2. Naturally, when he gets destroyed, would that actually be more helpful or harmful to him in the long run?
3. What would you do if you if it was up to you?

I’ll start:
1. Cael starts him if he’s ready to go.
2. More helpful in the long run. With his pedigree, I don’t see Howard as someone who’s ego/confidence would be damaged by a trip to the wooodshed. The experience would be invaluable.
3. I’d start him.

WE ARE!!!

 

[86PSUPaul]

I say start! And then I will pray for his shoulder.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Something tells me that dr’s permission slip is dated for the 13th. RELAX lol.

 

[psugrad85]

With the way Spencer wrenches the shoulder, and Howard just coming off his surgery recovery, I'd start Shunk, and have Howard in one of the extra matches.

 

[SRATH]

Extra match should be fine, but he does need to get some work.....just not worked. Excited to see him go.

 

[nerfstate]

With the way Spencer wrenches the shoulder, and Howard just coming off his surgery recovery, I'd start Shunk, and have Howard in one of the extra matches.

I get this argument, I really do. However, I feel like either Robbie is ready to wrestle, or he isn’t. It’s not like he won’t likely encounter Spencer a big tens at this point anyway. I say give him a feel, if he is ready to wrestle.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Since I have no idea on the real state of his mind,shoulder health, or competition capability at this level I will defer to Cael on this one. I hope it isn't awkward when Cael solicits my advice and I refuse to offer guidance.

 

[midniteride]

I get this argument, I really do. However, I feel like either Robbie is ready to wrestle, or he isn’t. It’s not like he won’t likely encounter Spencer a big tens at this point anyway. I say give him a feel, if he is ready to wrestle.

A natural freshman, who hasn't wrestled a college match yet after coming off shoulder surgery and it in some way seems like a good idea to send him out against what many are claiming to be the best 125lber ever?

 

[a_mshaffer]

I can't answer without more insight. Where is SPYKER?

 

[GogglesPaizano]

This is just plain silly. Robbie is a 5 year investment coming off of shoulder surgery this year going to against a generational talent who ambar wrenches you over your shoulder 4-5x times per match until you relent.

I can not think of a worse scenario for his first match back from surgery and first match ever at this level.

I am ok with giving them the 6, and having Robbie get one in during the extra matches. The question begs however, where have our other 125s been? The safe assumption is Covid but we haven't heard a peep.

Isn't that a dodge? Hell yes, and I am good with it.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

If Robbie does go, count me out as a viewer. Not saying Spencer would intentionally hurt ANYONE,but us not having a point scoring 125 would sure help Iowa’s title chances.
I say hold him out here AND from any chance meetings at B10’s. And turn off your twitter for awhile.

 

[82bordeaux]

I’ll start:
1. Cael starts him if he’s ready to go.
2. More helpful in the long run. With his pedigree, I don’t see Howard as someone who’s ego/confidence would be damaged by a trip to the wooodshed. The experience would be invaluable.
3. I’d start him.

WE ARE!!!

1. Cael sits him if he’s ready to go.
2. More harmful in the long run. With his pedigree, I don’t see the value in putting him in that situation in match 1 of his true freshman season. The experience would not be worth the risk.
3. I’d sit him.

WE ARE!!!

But that's why we have these message boards. To hear everyone's opinions and see where each of us falls along the spectrum.

 

[WildTurk]

No way Cael sits Howard. He is no mother ducker!

 

[Dogwelder]

... I'd start Shunk, and have Howard in one of the extra matches.

That would be ducking Spencer and admitting you're ducking Spencer. No, the way to duck is to duck and not admit it. #understandtheconcept

 

[jsn4388]

I like the idea of holding Howard from Spencer and let him go with extra matches. However, if Howard ends up matching with Spencer, I would advise him to not engage Spencer for as long as possible, if I was Cael. Just enough to get a feel from Spencer and then break away is the best way to do it for now. This way, outside of getting pinned, the best case scenario would be giving up a decision, and worse case would be a TF. But don't get hurt in the process.

 

[1032004]

I wonder if Iowa would even want to give him an extra match.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Anyone know why Lee didn't wrestle against Purdue?

 

[Law-Deezie]

This is just plain silly. Robbie is a 5 year investment coming off of shoulder surgery this year going to against a generational talent who ambar wrenches you over your shoulder 4-5x times per match until you relent.

I can not think of a worse scenario for his first match back from surgery and first match ever at this level.

I am ok with giving them the 6, and having Robbie get one in during the extra matches. The question begs however, where have our other 125s been? The safe assumption is Covid but we haven't heard a peep.

Isn't that a dodge? Hell yes, and I am good with it.

I agree with you. I don’t know that it’s a good idea to throw him out against Spencer coming off of the shoulder injury.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Anyone know why Lee didn't wrestle against Purdue?

Tom not there to slap-start him?? Seriously, havent heard anything, prolly just gettin backup some work.

 

[82bordeaux]

Anyone know why Lee didn't wrestle against Purdue?

He went to Taco Bell after weighing in. He couldn't answer "The Bell"

 

[Media Fan]

This is just plain silly. Robbie is a 5 year investment coming off of shoulder surgery this year going to against a generational talent who ambar wrenches you over your shoulder 4-5x times per match until you relent.

I can not think of a worse scenario for his first match back from surgery and first match ever at this level.

I am ok with giving them the 6, and having Robbie get one in during the extra matches. The question begs however, where have our other 125s been? The safe assumption is Covid but we haven't heard a peep.

Isn't that a dodge? Hell yes, and I am good with it.

Agree with what you say. 5 year investment, don’t throw it away if there is a chance that might happen.

 

[nerfstate]

All I’m saying is, if he’s at risk with his shoulder, then maybe he should sit for the rest of the year. If Dan Monthley says he’s ready to rock ‘n’ roll, then let’s see him on the mat!

 

[Random4598375]

They need to have someone at 125. If not, it lets Iowa bump everyone up a class to cover for Young's absence:

125 Backup for forfeit
133 Lee v RBY
141 DeSanto v N. Lee
149 Eierman v whoever
157 Murin v Berge

That's a hell of a lot tougher lineup to face with a free 6 at 125, probable bonus at 133, likely bonus at 149, and a much better shot at beating Berge with Murin than a backup. PSU takes only 1 of the first 5. Cael needs to make Lee wrestle at 125 so that they have a shot at 133, 141, and 157.

I get the concern about Howard's shoulder, but if it is that much of a risk, then he shouldn't be medically cleared.

 

[Hoosier Lion]

They need to have someone at 125. If not, it lets Iowa bump everyone up a class to cover for Young's absence:

125 Backup for forfeit
133 Lee v RBY
141 DeSanto v N. Lee
149 Eierman v whoever
157 Murin v Berge

That's a hell of a lot tougher lineup to face with a free 6 at 125, probable bonus at 133, likely bonus at 149, and a much better shot at beating Berge with Murin than a backup. PSU takes only 1 of the first 5. Cael needs to make Lee wrestle at 125 so that they have a shot at 133, 141, and 157.

I get the concern about Howard's shoulder, but if it is that much of a risk, then he shouldn't be medically cleared.

No way Iowa bumps Lee. He very well could lose that match to RBY. 8lbs is a lot of weight at that size. Nick Lee would destroy DeSanto. Eierman would win 149 but Murin gets beat at 157. It’ll never happen

 

[Creek Side]

This Friday when Robbie Howard beats Spencer Lee I expect all of you to post your apologies for doubting him here in this same thread.

 

[El-Jefe]

No way Iowa bumps Lee. He very well could lose that match to RBY. 8lbs is a lot of weight at that size. Nick Lee would destroy DeSanto. Eierman would win 149 but Murin gets beat at 157. It’ll never happen

Actually that's not fair -- it's hard to tap with both arms barred up.

 

[NoVa Lion]

They need to have someone at 125. If not, it lets Iowa bump everyone up a class to cover for Young's absence:

125 Backup for forfeit
133 Lee v RBY
141 DeSanto v N. Lee
149 Eierman v whoever
157 Murin v Berge

That's a hell of a lot tougher lineup to face with a free 6 at 125, probable bonus at 133, likely bonus at 149, and a much better shot at beating Berge with Murin than a backup. PSU takes only 1 of the first 5. Cael needs to make Lee wrestle at 125 so that they have a shot at 133, 141, and 157.

I get the concern about Howard's shoulder, but if it is that much of a risk, then he shouldn't be medically cleared.

Neither Brands would be stupid enough to do this. With the weight rules that have been in place for many years now it is VERY rare for a starter at any school to bump up in weight for a dual.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

They need to have someone at 125. If not, it lets Iowa bump everyone up a class to cover for Young's absence:

125 Backup for forfeit
133 Lee v RBY
141 DeSanto v N. Lee
149 Eierman v whoever
157 Murin v Berge

That's a hell of a lot tougher lineup to face with a free 6 at 125, probable bonus at 133, likely bonus at 149, and a much better shot at beating Berge with Murin than a backup. PSU takes only 1 of the first 5. Cael needs to make Lee wrestle at 125 so that they have a shot at 133, 141, and 157.

I get the concern about Howard's shoulder, but if it is that much of a risk, then he shouldn't be medically cleared.

Any Doctor worth his diploma having seen videos of Lee‘s torturous turns wouldnt recommend that to anyone, let alone someone with a shoulder issue. Bottom line though is its inevitable they meet prolly 5 -6 times between this year and next.

 

[js8793]

They need to have someone at 125. If not, it lets Iowa bump everyone up a class to cover for Young's absence:

125 Backup for forfeit
133 Lee v RBY
141 DeSanto v N. Lee
149 Eierman v whoever
157 Murin v Berge

That's a hell of a lot tougher lineup to face with a free 6 at 125, probable bonus at 133, likely bonus at 149, and a much better shot at beating Berge with Murin than a backup. PSU takes only 1 of the first 5. Cael needs to make Lee wrestle at 125 so that they have a shot at 133, 141, and 157.

I get the concern about Howard's shoulder, but if it is that much of a risk, then he shouldn't be medically cleared.

Neither Brands would be stupid enough to do this. With the weight rules that have been in place for many years now it is VERY rare for a starter at any school to bump up in weight for a dual.

You see this a lot from fans, but this is a high school mindset. There's a reason you never see it. The only time you do is in cases like Gross bumping to Meredith and Rivera bumping to Micic where you have a guy who wants a big challenge and it's not likely to affect the dual outcome either way. As you noted, you basically have to still weigh in at your normal weight. This is absolutely a worse lineup for Iowa. Desanto and Murin go from tossup/slight underdog and favorite to both being very solid underdogs with little shot at winning.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

No way Iowa bumps Lee. He very well could lose that match to RBY. 8lbs is a lot of weight at that size. Nick Lee would destroy DeSanto. Eierman would win 149 but Murin gets beat at 157. It’ll never happen

If any one guy in the NCAA is capable of winning the next weight up, its Spencer Lee. It wouldnt surprise me in the least he would beat RBY. Think about it... who do you think gets the upper hand, Lee or DeSanto?
I would LOVE to see Nick throw DeCantgo around!

 

[NothingMeaningful]

Neither Brands would be stupid enough to do this. With the weight rules that have been in place for many years now it is VERY rare for a starter at any school to bump up in weight for a dual.

A few years ago, Missouri was in danger of having their dual meet win streak broken by Cornell. They bumped Willie Miklus (then ranked #4) from 184 to 197 to avoid losing to Gabe Dean (Miklus eked out an 8-7 victory at 197), and bumped J'den Cox to 285, where he got the tech fall to secure an 18-17 team win.

 

[dunkej01]

This Friday when Robbie Howard beats Spencer Lee I expect all of you to post your apologies for doubting him here in this same thread.

Deal

 

[McScoreley]

I can say with 100% certainty now Robbie isn't wrestling Spencer this Friday 😢

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

So, IF, Howard is fully healthy and ready to go (a big if), some questions:
1. Will Cael throw him into the Lion’s Den vs Spencer in his first ever college match?
2. Naturally, when he gets destroyed, would that actually be more helpful or harmful to him in the long run?
3. What would you do if you if it was up to you?

I’ll start:
1. Cael starts him if he’s ready to go.
2. More helpful in the long run. With his pedigree, I don’t see Howard as someone who’s ego/confidence would be damaged by a trip to the wooodshed. The experience would be invaluable.
3. I’d start him.

WE ARE!!!

Nope, not this Friday.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

A few years ago, Missouri was in danger of having their dual meet win streak broken by Cornell. They bumped Willie Miklus (then ranked #4) from 184 to 197 to avoid losing to Gabe Dean (Miklus eked out an 8-7 victory at 197), and bumped J'den Cox to 285, where he got the tech fall to secure an 18-17 team win.

If and when we wrestle Iowa, just to blow their minds, if they bump everyone up, we should do the same. Give them 12 points to start. Hilarious.

 

[El-Jefe]

If and when we wrestle Iowa, just to blow their minds, if they bump everyone up, we should do the same. Give them 12 points to start. Hilarious.

If Cael thinks Iowa would do this, he could call Brands' bluff in advance.

NCAA Rulebook says nothing about which wrestler (home or away) is announced first. However, Rule 3.1.1 (p. 19) says "All details on how the home team proposes to conduct the meet or tournament shall be submitted to the coach of the visiting team(s) a sufficient length of time before the date of the meet for agreement to be reached. No such action is binding unless approved by the visiting team or teams."

Translated, Cael just has to email Brands and say "ref calls your guys to the mat first." If Brands agrees, then he has to send Lee or a backup at 125 before Cael sends anyone. If Brands denies, then Cael knows Brands is considering it.

Then we go to Rule 3.12.3 (p. 22), which says "As soon as either competitor steps onto the mat, that competitor cannot be withdrawn or replaced." --> Mexican standoff.

https://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/WR20.pdf

 

[nitlion6]

I get this argument, I really do. However, I feel like either Robbie is ready to wrestle, or he isn’t. It’s not like he won’t likely encounter Spencer a big tens at this point anyway. I say give him a feel, if he is ready to wrestle.

Excellent point. It isn't like Robbie chose Ohio State where you go to default into the consolations.

 

[Random4598375]

You see this a lot from fans, but this is a high school mindset. There's a reason you never see it. The only time you do is in cases like Gross bumping to Meredith and Rivera bumping to Micic where you have a guy who wants a big challenge and it's not likely to affect the dual outcome either way. As you noted, you basically have to still weigh in at your normal weight. This is absolutely a worse lineup for Iowa. Desanto and Murin go from tossup/slight underdog and favorite to both being very solid underdogs with little shot at winning.

No, in this case, it definitely would not be worse. The assumption was that Young is out. Iowa used a backup 149 at 157 this past weekend, so even if Murin is an underdog vs Berge, he clearly has a much better chance than his backup. The only weight where IA is worse is 141, and Desanto is the sacrificial lamb in such a move. There is absolutely nothing I've seen from Spencer Lee in the last two years to indicate that he wouldn't tear through anyone at either 125 or 133. If you make Lee wrestle 125, then the lineup goes:

125 Lee +6
133 Desanto -3
141 Eierman Even
149 Murin +4
157 Backup -4

Iowa has a +3 expected advantage in the first 5 classes. If you forfeit 125 to their backup, the it changes to this:

125 Forfeit +6
133 Lee +4
141 Desanto -5
149 Eierman +5
157 Murin -3

The +3 advantage is now +7. Even if you don't think Lee can major RBY, it's still +6. The advantage comes from giving away 6 to a backup instead of making a backup wrestle 157, who would almost assuredly lose badly. If they bump Lee and make their backup wrestle Howard in the same scenario, the +6 at 125 becomes -3 and it's now a clear disadvantage.

It's all a moot point now anyway.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

No, in this case, it definitely would not be worse. The assumption was that Young is out. Iowa used a backup 149 at 157 this past weekend, so even if Murin is an underdog vs Berge, he clearly has a much better chance than his backup. The only weight where IA is worse is 141, and Desanto is the sacrificial lamb in such a move. There is absolutely nothing I've seen from Spencer Lee in the last two years to indicate that he wouldn't tear through anyone at either 125 or 133. If you make Lee wrestle 125, then the lineup goes:

125 Lee +6
133 Desanto -3
141 Eierman Even
149 Murin +4
157 Backup -4

Iowa has a +3 expected advantage in the first 5 classes. If you forfeit 125 to their backup, the it changes to this:

125 Forfeit +6
133 Lee +4
141 Desanto -5
149 Eierman +5
157 Murin -3

The +3 advantage is now +7. Even if you don't think Lee can major RBY, it's still +6. The advantage comes from giving away 6 to a backup instead of making a backup wrestle 157, who would almost assuredly lose badly. If they bump Lee and make their backup wrestle Howard in the same scenario, the +6 at 125 becomes -3 and it's now a clear disadvantage.

It's all a moot point now anyway.

2 things:

* when did Max ****ing Murin become some bonus machine? He’s not majoring
* Lee may not even beat RBY. Bigger and faster is a thing in sports. It may come down to Lee taking top to get any points, but he wrestles deep into matches so infrequently (none this year) he might be gassed by then.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

No, in this case, it definitely would not be worse. The assumption was that Young is out. Iowa used a backup 149 at 157 this past weekend, so even if Murin is an underdog vs Berge, he clearly has a much better chance than his backup. The only weight where IA is worse is 141, and Desanto is the sacrificial lamb in such a move. There is absolutely nothing I've seen from Spencer Lee in the last two years to indicate that he wouldn't tear through anyone at either 125 or 133. If you make Lee wrestle 125, then the lineup goes:

125 Lee +6
133 Desanto -3
141 Eierman Even
149 Murin +4
157 Backup -4

Iowa has a +3 expected advantage in the first 5 classes. If you forfeit 125 to their backup, the it changes to this:

125 Forfeit +6
133 Lee +4
141 Desanto -5
149 Eierman +5
157 Murin -3

The +3 advantage is now +7. Even if you don't think Lee can major RBY, it's still +6. The advantage comes from giving away 6 to a backup instead of making a backup wrestle 157, who would almost assuredly lose badly. If they bump Lee and make their backup wrestle Howard in the same scenario, the +6 at 125 becomes -3 and it's now a clear disadvantage.

It's all a moot point now anyway.

With all due respect I am not so sure Nick TFs Desanto, likewise Eireman won't if Verk isn't out due to injury. I also don't think we FF 125. I suspect aside from Howard, Shunk 'was' either injured or on CV Protocol which should have expired? Maybe Vespa is on redshirt but they might have pulled it just to avoid the free six points due to the lineup shift.