OSU by coach John Smith:
http://www.okstate.com/news/2015/10/27/WREST_1027153159.aspx?path=wrestling
http://www.okstate.com/news/2015/10/27/WREST_1027153159.aspx?path=wrestling
Season Previews: Non BigTen Teams
- Thread starter Flying_Tiger
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Right. At what point does 'depth' become 'bad roster management?' 2016 studs burning a year of eligibility: Blees & Chandler Rogers. 2017: one or two of Gary Wayne Harding, Kaid Brock, Boo Lewallen and one of Blees or Joe Smith.
So if PSU had those guys as backups as opposed to group of backups they have now would that be considered bad roster management or incredible depth? Not having guys to wrestle all 10 weights is poor roster management. Having more studs than you need is depth.
I'm still not sure. Which is pretty much why I framed it as a question. 'Bad roster management' sounds harsh, mostly because we fans don't know exactly how Smith or Cael cut up the 9.9. If we did, we might find the phrase far more appropriate. I get that it's a massive juggling act--and that there might be more luck than science to it--but I think it's worth exploring the downsides of losing years of competitive eligibility for the wrestlers who have agreed to come train with you on your team. Blees & Rogers might have decent chances to make the podiums if they were wrestling in the field, but might not even get the chance to this year if they can't place 7th to another Cowboy placing 8th inside the OkSt wrestling room.
Your final point is fine: of course it's way worse management to under-stock your lineup than it is to overstuff it, but the labeling doesn't change for me if it's Smith's lineup vs Cael's. If Baby Markee chooses Cael and doesn't do a Colorado Springs stint first, we're definitely gonna have a similar issue. And if any of Vincenzo Joseph, Mason Manville, Jason Nolf, Mark Hall or Bo Nickal lose a year of competing at nationals--after redshirting--then Cael's roster management, and that wrestler's decision to trust it, contributed to that casualty. Throw in the possibility that some dude on your bench might be eating 50/60/70% of a scholarship for that year, and bad roster management isn't a preposterous label.
When you start hearing that Cael or any other coach is missing out on recruits that fill needs and they would otherwise get because the money is tied up on non essential guys then its time to start talking about the subject you just posted.
Scholly money aside because with the guys currently on the roster (any roster) there is obviously enough to go around no matter how its divided- Having a guy that would take 8th as a backup to the starter that takes 7th is depth. In hindsight it may have been a bad choice by the wrestler on where to attend but its not bad management by the coach because the backup is good. The idea that the better the backup is the worse of a job the coach did managing the lineup just seems faulty to me.
How is whether or not Cael's management of the roster considered good or bad based on Hall's decision? Better yet how is his roster management grade lowered if Hall decides to go to PSU? Hard for me to wrap my brain around that one.
Scholly money aside because with the guys currently on the roster (any roster) there is obviously enough to go around no matter how its divided- Having a guy that would take 8th as a backup to the starter that takes 7th is depth. In hindsight it may have been a bad choice by the wrestler on where to attend but its not bad management by the coach because the backup is good. The idea that the better the backup is the worse of a job the coach did managing the lineup just seems faulty to me.
How is whether or not Cael's management of the roster considered good or bad based on Hall's decision? Better yet how is his roster management grade lowered if Hall decides to go to PSU? Hard for me to wrap my brain around that one.
There may be another reason for the depth that OSU has and that is the cost of goi ng to school there. It is my understanding that tuition is a good deal less that PSU and out of state students have a way to qulify for instate tuition. That surely makes it more reasonable to follow your dream to one of the top programs!
OSU in-state:
tuition: $8,440
room & board: $8,710
Total: $17,150
OSU out-of-state:
tuition: $21,020
room & board: $8,710
Total: $29,730
OSU Out-of-state Achievement Scholarships:
if you have a 3.0 GPA and the following SAT scores, you are eligible for these scholarships:
1090-1120:
$8,000 per year X 4 years
1130-1200:
$9.750 per year X 4 years
1210-1320:
$11,000 per year X 4 years
1330 or higher:
$12,500 per year X 4 years
By comparison ...
PSU in-state:
tuition: $17,502
room & board: $10,548
Total: $28,050
PSU out-of-state:
tuition: $30,452
room & board: $10,548
Total: $41,000
PSU does not have any type of scholarship for out-of-state residents that have good academics.
As I said in another post, maybe on the Iowa board, if Ok had as much high school talent as Pa did (or very close), it would be game over due to their significantly lower costs and the corresponding impact on the value of partial scholarships.
As an aside, typically are scholarships targeted at tuition only generally or do they defray all out of pocket costs?
Game over? How about the quality of the education? We seem to be skipping over what you get when you graduate. Right now, PSU is ranked #47 among national universites and Oklahoma State is ranked...#149...http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+13
Which school would you want your diploma from?
I was trying to be diplomatic, so I glossed over that very important data point.
I hear what you are saying.
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still pretty sad... say what you want but the costs disparity is despicable... I know you many are happy with the pride and the 'paper' (diploma) but bite into it and you will end up seeing waste and tax that just shouldn't be there.... There are plenty of people holding a piece of paper that cost >$100k and are not making that ... however I wont dive any more into the politics of such... I'll just root for the great sport and local wrestling team! Our education system is getting out of touch...
I think you're probably right, and thanks for being a gentleman as I've tried to explore it. I've been looking at the negative end-game scenarios of having multiple studs losing eligible years of comp, but in looking at the front-end and how it might be prevented, I don't have many good suggestions. Maybe that John Smith put more energy into recruiting 184 & 197 than stacking 157-174 with Blees, Marsteller, Dieringer, Crutchmer, Rogers and Joe Smith? But who's reasonably gonna tell Cael to not recruit Mark Hall because it's possible that a returning Senior 2x All-American Matt McCutcheon might get bumped in 2018? So your points on labels, blame and realistic prevention are well taken.
I guess I need to return to the wrestler decision-making aspect of it then. I understand Marsteller had to get out of PA, but look at his situation now: sucking down to his 9th grade weight or burn a year on the bench. And Chandler Rogers has to go the other route: bump up & challenge AA Crutchmer or sit behind Dieringer. If he can't and Blees can't beat Marsteller, that's two studs on the bench & one sucking down to a 5yr low. And when it doesn't even barely change next year, when Dieringer's done, but Joe Smith enters the mix? Blees may never see the starting mat and they'll have Marsteller vs Rogers for 165, so one sits again?
Maybe I'm just getting greedy as a fan: I'd rather see these dudes compete against each other in actual competition than read about them battling into obscurity behind one team's wrestling room walls. Anyway, thanks for the dialogue.
I don't see any downside in this - I know in theory it seems like you can put yourself in a corner with scholarships, but in reality, scholarships are awarded on a year-to-year basis. I don't think that anyone at PSU is promised anything beyond what they are getting in the first year.
This may sound harsh, but I think this is how most top end programs operate and what is accepted/expected by the wrestlers. And when situations change in the lineup, the wrestlers often sort the finances out themselves (transfers).
In a year or two at OK State, some of these guys will leave for better individual situations - that's just the reality of it. And there is nothing wrong with this by Smith - the wrestlers know the deal and are taking their shot to be the man at the school they want to wrestle at.
This may sound harsh, but I think this is how most top end programs operate and what is accepted/expected by the wrestlers. And when situations change in the lineup, the wrestlers often sort the finances out themselves (transfers).
In a year or two at OK State, some of these guys will leave for better individual situations - that's just the reality of it. And there is nothing wrong with this by Smith - the wrestlers know the deal and are taking their shot to be the man at the school they want to wrestle at.
Hey jto, welcome to the world of recruiting. The future of each prospective student-athlete is a calculated guess by coaches, and contains so many variables, trying to explain it in a couple paragraphs just doesn't do it justice. Academics? Staying out of trouble? Injuries? Room "fit"? Coachable? Attitude? Desire? Commitment? Growth (affecting planned weight class)? And more...
It's a complicated puzzle. The best coaches just put the puzzle together (still with much unknown) better than others. And it's not easy. Our staff travels a lot to see recruits. It's what they've signed up for, but family is important too.
For me personally, I understand how a team could end up with a couple "studs" at the same weight class, and have a shortage at another.
It's a complicated puzzle. The best coaches just put the puzzle together (still with much unknown) better than others. And it's not easy. Our staff travels a lot to see recruits. It's what they've signed up for, but family is important too.
For me personally, I understand how a team could end up with a couple "studs" at the same weight class, and have a shortage at another.
For example: Tanning Bed U. next year with Snyder, Tavanello, and Haines all at 285.
