Yet there are several PSU fans over there having some pretty good discussions since Flo's rankings came out.
Snow? "Iowa and Okie State are wrestling OUTDOORS before Iowa football game Nov 14."
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Yet there are several PSU fans over there having some pretty good discussions since Flo's rankings came out.
I'm happy for them as they can hopefully enjoy the debate before the season starts. I don't think once the Dual Championship Series is over or the National Championships are over or when Spencer Lee makes his final decision... or Mark Hall makes his final decision... they're going to want to be anywhere near HR. But they're big boys... and choose where they spend their idle time.
The rankings also Chief can be very subjective. Like the football rankings, it take weeks into the season to prove who might have been over rated (ranked) or who might be an emerging talent no one saw as being one.
The slightest bad Iowa news...and... I don't have to finish... you know what happens on HR.
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And here I thought they were written in stone. Welp, there will always be D-Bags on any site that attack outside posters for no other reasons than they do not like the other side.
Well... you made two assumptions and you know again what occurs when you do that? I don't have to finish that one either. No one attacked the poster directly... a statement was merely made and he took it personally. It's a preference. You don't have to like it or not like it.
And how could the rankings be in stone? They're based on future performance. I hope you were being facetious. And there always will be disappointed Iowa fans. It's a law of nature. Dan Gable set the bar too high and there wasn't as much parity in college wrestling as their is today's collegiate wrestling landscape.
Parity if you call Penn State's four National titles in five years... parity.
Did you feel like I was directing that post at you Amalone? Ass-u-me. But feel free to lace those Cael's up and wear them. And yes, I was having a funny at your need to 'splain the rankings. May I make a suggestion? You should write down all the Penn State dominance/Iowa sucks paragraphs on a word document for quick reference to copy and paste. Will save you some time on each of your posts. Here's a witty comeback for you to start the collection: "Hey Chief, God may be a Hawk fan but when his only Son comes back to wash the world of sin, he's signing with Cael." You see? Not that hard. Feel free to use it down the line.
Here's another one Chief... How do you know that's Cael's not GOD's begotten son? He seems to do no wrong and on Earth... he's changed young boys into God following men. And he seems to always have unexplained divine intervention on the recruiting trail on his side and pulled out unworldly miracles at Nationals. (ie. Quentin Wright (David) slaying Goliath (Dustin Kilgore).
Sounds like a son of God to me.
And his "father said... you must go"... I mean Cael took a pilgrimage to a school who's colors are Blue and White... the back drop colors of where his Heavenly father resides. Have at it...
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Rankings are based on past performance.
Predictions are for future performance.
Rankings... such as preseason rankings are based on future performance also. PPS's explanation, though original in it's intent.... doesn't make sense when you look at a Bo Nickal having no official past performance at the collegiate level. You can't base a wrestler who's a first time starter on past performance at the collegiate level.
The greater part of a 1st year projected starter is where you see them placing at that moment in time when you do the rankings. It's completely subjective and NOT based on past performance. There's NONE to go on. What about wrestlers like Alex Meyer who are 1st time starters?? We're basing their ranking on how well they wrestled the previous starter in the room and how that starting wrestler was ranked the previous season to end the season, how much sweat came off them in a practice session, how well he talks himself up in interviews or how close to Iowa City or how much CP likes him when the ranker is a die hard Iowa fan? Alex Meyer... 5th and Bo Nickel 16th? Let them wrestle today and Alex Meyer might be 16th and Bo Nickal in the top five. That would lend themselves to the subjective nature of pre-season rankings. Their ranking is subjectively done on who that person (ranker) sees that wrestler fitting in talent wise against his competition. That's merely subjective and NOT based on any quantifiable information at all, none past... but surely future possible success to the level they are ranked. That's why rankings are so fun to debate, pre-season. They are mainly subjective because many wrestlers have NO past performance to go on.
Except Alex Meyer was 18-3 last year knocking off two top six guys and finishing 3rd at Midlands. One of those losses was him wrestling up at 184 in a close match against Miklus. One of those win's was over Flo's #1 at the weight...Crutchmer. He also beat #4 ranked Blaise Butler.
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That's a whole lotta typing but completely false.Rankings... such as preseason rankings are based on future performance also. PPS's explanation, though original in it's intent.... doesn't make sense when you look at a Bo Nickal having no official past performance at the collegiate level. You can't base a wrestler who's a first time starter on past performance at the collegiate level.
Their ranking is subjectively done on who that person (ranker) sees that wrestler fitting in talent wise against his competition. That's merely subjective and NOT based on any quantifiable information at all, none past... but surely future possible success to the level they are ranked. That's why rankings are so fun to debate, pre-season. They are mainly subjective because many wrestlers have NO past performance to go on.
Starter or not, Alex Meyer wrestled last year. Bo Nickal's ranking is based on the matches he wrestled last year as a redshirt not what he will do in the future. Forget official records, the matches happened and rankers acknowlege them whether or not you do. There is a reason redshirt freshman are included in preseason rankings and true freshman are not. CP and other rankers will tell you just because they have 1 guy ranked over another that doesn't necessarily mean they believe that's the way they'll finish. Trust me, CP does not believe there are 15 guys better than Nickal. But there are 15 with better resumes to date.
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That's ridiculous. Both had a body of work last year. Bo was 15-2 losing at the Scuffle in a match he was injured in, and a close loss to Matt Brown at the NLO. Injury prevented him from getting a notable win at the Scuffle. Chief just stated Meyers case. You can argue a couple spots here or there, but their rankings are where you would expect them based upon previous year results. I do however expect Bo to go up in the rankings as the season goes on. 174 is wide open. My early money is on Epperly, so imo we will know where Bo is at pretty soon.
Is that slang for you can't make your own argument so you have to bring others into it? If El Jefe's point is that Meyer is overrated, that's his opinion. I would argue the same points in my prior post. Also, 174 cleared out big time.He is not ranked higher than two guys that he beat because he was a backup and didn't wrestle in the tourney. I'm good with that.
But that's not the argument...You were stating that rankings for both guys are future based. JRod stated Bo's case based on his redshirt year. I made Alex's because both have wrestled actual college matches.
JROD... That makes no sense. If Alex Meyer went 15-3 as a non-starter at 174 and Bo Nickal went 15-2 as a non starter at 174 and Bo lost a very close match at the Nittany Open to the eventual NATIONAL CHAMPION, Matt Brown, 10-7 (took Matt Brown at the buzzer FYI)... Why is he ranked 16th in the country... based on past performance of last year?
And in Penn State's Official Bio on Bo Nickal... they make absolutely no mention of his RS Freshman year, nor Zain Retherford's RS year, nor Nico Megaludis's RS year.
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/bo_nickal_921773.html
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/zain_retherford_847201.html
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/nico_megaludis_771153.html
Where as in the Iowa Official Bio of Alex Meyer... they mention his wins, losses in his RS year. He was 11-8 his RS FR year, by the way, as compared to Bo's 15-2 his RS FR year which Penn State doesn't acknowledge as he wrestled unattached.
Makes sense on your past performance comment? I can see how this all adds up with no subjective evaluation at all.
No... I brought El Jefe's statement in because I knew you would comment and come back that way. Future results based on "past performance or previous commenting particular to me. I agree with El Jefe's assertion, he was making in his rhetorical question.. but of course... it needed elaboration.
I know that Alex Meyer is over rated. The season will prove that out as a starter as he faces a depleted 174 weight class.
I think that Bo Nickal handles him easily when they face each other in the semi's of the Dual Championship Series if Iowa makes it that far. If Cornell, Oklahoma State or Ohio State doesn't knock Iowa off first.
Good...Back in familiar Iowa hating territory. Stick with what you know.
Obtuse. Deliberate or not I'm unsure but definitely obtuse.JROD... That makes no sense. If Alex Meyer went 15-3 as a non-starter at 174 and Bo Nickal went 15-2 as a non starter at 174 and Bo lost a very close match at the Nittany Open to the eventual NATIONAL CHAMPION, Matt Brown, 10-7 (took Matt Brown at the buzzer FYI)... Why is he ranked 16th in the country... based on past performance of last year?
And in Penn State's Official Bio on Bo Nickal... they make absolutely no mention of his RS Freshman year, nor Zain Retherford's RS year, nor Nico Megaludis's RS year.
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/bo_nickal_921773.html
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/zain_retherford_847201.html
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/nico_megaludis_771153.html
Where as in the Iowa Official Bio of Alex Meyer... they mention his wins, losses in his RS year. He was 11-8 his RS FR year, by the way, as compared to Bo's 15-2 his RS FR year which Penn State doesn't acknowledge as he wrestled unattached.
Makes sense on your past performance comment? I can see how this all adds up with no subjective evaluation at all.
Jason Nolf wrestled in the Scuffle as did Nick Nevills. Both RS'd. Both of their Penn State bios have NO RS wins or loses at all.
You can hypothesize that Penn State got the bio info for Matt Brown from Iowa State's sports information people. Penn State doesn't include RS information in it's official bios for non-transfers.
I just think Iowa won't be in the finals of the Dual Championship. I think Alex Meyer is over rated. That's not hating on Iowa. It's my subjective feelings. I can't have them on my own site??? Did you forget where you are?
Definitely NOT obtuse. Your argument is shot out of the water based on past RS year performance... directly put in front of your face. How do you rank the Iowa wrestler 5th in the country and the other guy with a better winning percentage as a younger wrestler, with far less experience, but wrestled the National Champion as hard as any competitor... as a true freshman... ranked #16. Was #17 before a wrestler was changed. Had a year to wrestle to get better in a phenomenal wrestling room, battling it out with two National Champions that are around his weight, day after day in David Taylor and Matt Brown. One a technician and one a hammer. You have NO idea how to answer that... or you would have Capt. Oblivous... Master Obuse.
Your guys a junior and couldn't break the line up with a previous NON Top 5, final ranked guy. Matt Brown... beat down the guy, Alex Meyer couldn't beat to get in the line up. As a freshman.... Bo Nickal almost beat that Iowa beater. Yet the Iowa guy is #5 and the Penn State RS freshman is #16. How accurate is that ranking? Not very.
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Alex Meyer has wins over Kyle Crutchmer, Blaise Butler, Zac Brunson, and Nate Jackson from the current rankings, as well as Johnny Sebastian who dropped to 165 for this season. His losses are to Stache, a lone outlier bad loss to Frank Cousins, and a near win against Willie Miklus and AA up a weight, since you want to count 'near wins' as credentials. Bo lost to Brown and McCulley, and beat nobody of any significance. The rankings are both completely justified based on the body of work rankers have to go off of right now. I think Bo will move up quickly if he can remain healthy, but I'll take Meyer over Bo. Meyer high AA, Bo Low AA.
Hehe...Here's what I think:
1. You didn't know who Alex Meyer is or who he has beat.
2. Still didn't answer whether Zain or Nico wrestled their redshirt year because you don't know Mr. Superfan.
Or else why use them as RS examples? I don't think they did but could be wrong.
3. If it's not documented on PSU roster page, it didn't happen...and that a guy wrestled another guy from the same team closely (shocker) are the main points of your argument. And oh yea, Iowa Sucks and PBS is now Mr. Obtuse. That about sum it up?
1. You didn't know who Alex Meyer is or who he has beat.
2. Still didn't answer whether Zain or Nico wrestled their redshirt year because you don't know Mr. Superfan.
Or else why use them as RS examples? I don't think they did but could be wrong.
3. If it's not documented on PSU roster page, it didn't happen...and that a guy wrestled another guy from the same team closely (shocker) are the main points of your argument. And oh yea, Iowa Sucks and PBS is now Mr. Obtuse. That about sum it up?
Here's all I'm going to say about this whirligig of rhetoric:
Hard to disagree with this. Flo is very conservative with freshmen in the rankings. Nolf built himself a floor with his win over Thomas Gantt. Gantt is a former R12 guy coming off an excellent redshirt year, and Nolf beat him pretty handily at the Scuffle. They kind of had to rank Nolf above him. So far, Nolf is the only freshman to be ranked in the top 10.
I think the same is going to be true with Nevills. Riley Shaw of Cleveland State is going to be his floor. Nevills handled him at the Scuffle. Shaw is likely a top 10 guy in Flo's preseason rankings. I wouldn't be surprised to see Nevills one spot above him the same way Nolf was one spot above Gantt.
Bo didn't have that kind of win last year. Give me Bo over Meyer if they finally meet in March. But if I'm doing rankings right now based on what they've accomplished so far, I would have Meyer well above him.
(FWIW, I would bet when Flo gets done with their rankings, Nolf and Nevills will be the only two freshman to crack the top 10 in their weight classes.)
Here's all I'm going to say about this whirligig of rhetoric:
Seriously. Season can't start soon enough.
Well there you have it. I will take your word for it that rankings are predictions despite the author of said rankings saying otherwise. You are also correct in that rankers should consider who wrestlers train with and not unofficial matches they may have wrestled (as verified on their bio on PSU's website) when factoring rankings. Nickal is "predicted" to finish 16th (outside round of 12) at a thinned out weight. Makes sense. You win.
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Guys, just call a truce, and walk away. Nobody needs the last word, or to prove that their point is correct.
This thread is spiraling downward. I don't care why, or who started it. Everyone just chill, step back, and let's let this thread die out.
This thread is spiraling downward. I don't care why, or who started it. Everyone just chill, step back, and let's let this thread die out.
EDIT: Sorry Tom, posted before I saw your last entry...just trying to add a little perspective.
I personally find rankings interesting, and fun to discuss with reasonable people any time, even up to the 1st day of Nationals. Sure, they're borderline worthless, but it keeps us talking wrestling.
Even with an entire season of facts and figures for the "ranker's"... at the NCAA Tournament in St. Louis...
--- 8 Unseeded wrestlers became All-American. Keep in mind, they seeded to 16 in 2015
--- 19 Wrestlers seeded 9-16 became All-American. These 19 were not "expected" to be AA's
--- So 27 total wrestlers, or 34% of the 80 All-Americans, were not picked to be AA's
So how in the world can any person expect to be close in pre-season, when everyone is so far off just before Nationals? CP's doing the best he can, and by all the explanations, podcasts, and tweets, I'd say he puts in a fair amount of time. Worth talking about? Sure. It gets the juices flowing.
I personally find rankings interesting, and fun to discuss with reasonable people any time, even up to the 1st day of Nationals. Sure, they're borderline worthless, but it keeps us talking wrestling.
Even with an entire season of facts and figures for the "ranker's"... at the NCAA Tournament in St. Louis...
--- 8 Unseeded wrestlers became All-American. Keep in mind, they seeded to 16 in 2015
--- 19 Wrestlers seeded 9-16 became All-American. These 19 were not "expected" to be AA's
--- So 27 total wrestlers, or 34% of the 80 All-Americans, were not picked to be AA's
So how in the world can any person expect to be close in pre-season, when everyone is so far off just before Nationals? CP's doing the best he can, and by all the explanations, podcasts, and tweets, I'd say he puts in a fair amount of time. Worth talking about? Sure. It gets the juices flowing.
This is awesome. I hope they get 50k!!!
I talked to one of our University trustees this morning and PSU may see events at the beav in the near future. He brought up the hockey winter classic and I said a wrestling match and he smiled.
11:00am central time on Saturday. I believe it is on live on BTN2Go. On BTN the following day on Sunday at 7:00pm.
Thanks, i will be fly fishing instead. The whole BTN2go situation is lost on me. It should be a broadcast for more fans to enjoy. I see the Big network is broadcasting Purdue at NW during that time slot. It seems like they could have moved games two hours, done something novel and made some headway.
Good luck to both teams and I hope all the fans have a great time. Kudos to Iowa for staging this and Oklahoma State for agreeing, great for the sport, just wish the BIG realized that as well.
