Someone needs to stand up for these frat kids in hot water

[heckmans]

First of all let me preface by offering my condolences to the Piazza family. It's an absolute tragedy (im sure emotions are high right now), but how in the world can the state DA and the school throw these kids under the bus like this?

The administration was quoted weeks before lauding Greek life on campus and now this? I'm sorry, but a kid getting drunk and falling down the stairs is a tragedy not a crime. Negligence? Can you really assume a bunch of drunk college kids are going to make the right call in that situation? Nope... the administration did not have safe guards in place to prevent this kind of tragedy and should be just as culpable as the kids.

That being said why do we always have to play the blame game for tragic events? At the end of the day the kid made a choice to get shit faced drunk. It's the same choice millions of college kids make each day. When you do that you run the risk of bad things happening. This wasn't a child who was forced to drink against his will. It was a legal adult who made the choice to get sloshed.

They will have attorneys who will stand up for them with every legal angle possible. I agree that everyone who is so quick to judge based on the story needs to shut up. It will almost always sound worse than it truly was, but the test messages that appear to show some intent to cover-up and deceive authorities shows some malice and intent, if after the fact. I'm content to let the legal process play out. I might stand up for their legal rights and suggest people put down their torches and pitch forks, but no, I won't be standing up for the as I have no idea what really happened.
Also, if you ever get pulled over at a DUI checkpoint, don't use the excuse that you're drunk and not able to make the right call in the situation when you decided to drive.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

You see every year drunk students falling off State College balconies (As well as hundreds of other campuses across the country)...should all those at the parties who helped partake in binge drinking games be charged as well?

Totally different "duty of care" analysis which is a key prong of any Negligence case

 

[Obliviax]

Is joining a frat that important to take a chance with your life? He could have said go eff yourselves and moved along. Instead, he was weak minded and made the choice to indulge in risky behavior. He even acknowledged it in texts.

The text chain is what is going to make it hard on the frat. It's on the Collegian, and they actively sought to hide what had happened.

so dumb people should die?

 

[humpydudas19]

so dumb people should die?

No dumb people need to be better educated by their parents. Possibly monitored as well.

 

[83wuzme]

As far as I know, no one held Timothy down and poured liquor and beer down his throat...

The Collegian reporter said during an interview that part of the hazing process that night involved Piazza being repeatedly punched in the abdomen. If this is the case, when did pledging a fraternity start to look like a gang initiation ?
When you have 40,000 young adults on a campus, you are going to get some stupidity and some criminality. This incident is now a criminal justice matter that will be decided by juries.

 

[katchthis]

Of course it was an accident. If he wouldn't have fallen down the stairs he would have been fine the next day. Do you think the frat brothers gave him booze on purpose to kill him? Do you think that was their intent? I don't. As stated over and over again in this thread thousands of underage kids drink alcohol in excess every day. This makes them more at risk of fatal accidents. Most of the time the accidents don't happen. Sometimes they do. This whole incident was an unfortunate accident. However, in today's society, a group of kids who happened to be there at the time will have their lives ruined in retribution for what happened. Also, I'm sure the parents will get a scum bag lawyer who will sue the university for millions of dollars. The bill will be picked up by the Pennsylvania taxpayers of course.

Responsibility. Hmm. That appeared to be lacking on the part of the "brothers" running the event. The kid that died has paid for his lack of responsibility. His biggest crime was wanting to be a part of the Beta brotherhood that had forsaken him. Now it's time for the 18 brothers to accept responsibility. Lack of intent is why it is manslaughter and not a more serious murder crime. I'm not a fan of lawyering up, but in this case I have no problem with it.

 

[maxxedout]

I'm gonna throw it out there: Greek life is a relic, and it would not harm anyone for it to go the way of the dinosaur.

I have been a student, of sorts, for the better part of the past 14 years (26 if you include K-12).

With the price of college education, frat life is a damned distraction at best, and is harmful at worst. My kids will have zero part in this bullshit.

 

[Nitt1300]

It is interesting to compare our society now to say 40 years ago. First the concept of personal responsibility is gone. If something bad happens, a person or group to blame must be found and punished. Second the idea that something could have been an accident is gone. Nothing is an accident. Every event must have a malicious cause.

Our society has changed a lot in the last 40 years, and I'm not sure it's for the better.

I generally agree, but I think every one of these guys deserves to be charged. Theirs was criminally stupid behavior- at best.

But nobody who wasn't there (other frats, you, me, or PSU) has any responsibility here.

 

[no1lion99]

I agree with you, but I just dont see how they broke the law. They didn't tie this kid up and force him to drink. They didn't get drunk and throw him down the stairs. Where is the involuntary manslaughter charge coming from?

They gave a minor alcohol....if you can't see how that is against the law then I am not sure you should be commenting.

 

[heckmans]

Weeeeelll, he did drink what an expert will say was a fatal amount of alcohol, so it just might have killed him even had he not been injured.

perhaps, but this won't matter, legally speaking. If a person slits their wrists, but before they bleed-out, someone shoots them in the head, the cause of death is a gunshot wound to the head and murder, not suicide. The coroner determined that cause of death here was trauma from the fall(s), which likely could have been prevented if medical care was received.
The legal question is whether the fraternity broke any laws by serving Mr Piazza alcohol in general, alcohol in excess, and whether, legally, they had any responsibility to get him medical attention. Of course, the IFC ,Penn State, and the national fraternity chapter all have different rules and codes of conduct and will administer different consequences to the fraternity and individuals as they see fit.

 

[katchthis]

Weeeeelll, he did drink what an expert will say was a fatal amount of alcohol, so it just might have killed him even had he not been injured.

It's possible that the ruptured spleen with intra-peritoneal (internal bleeding) severely dropped his blood pressure and volume. That could be what killed him. Has there been a coroner's report yet? I would guess that the defense might do their own autopsy.

 

[no1lion99]

I believe by reading the posts of many, its been a few years since many of you have been in college. As a recent Penn State grad (class of 2015), I can guarantee there are MANY decisions made like this every night across almost all major college campuses.

You will see at parties all the time a drunk girl/guy falling over and passing out stupid drunk and then their friends carrying them some place to lay down and sleep it off. Just like in this story, most college kids will try to lay the drunk student on their side and probably put a trashcan next to them for if they throw up. 99.9% of the time, the sun rises the next morning, the student takes some advil and moves on with their day. From reading through the story many times and how the events took place, it sounds just like an event that may take place at the hundreds of other parties going down on the campus.

I agree, it is unfortunate of the ending, but this really could be anyones sons or daughters with how common things like this happen at college parties.

Yeah I bet that lots of kids are found purple and rigid and their friends STILL wait almost another hour while they cover their tracks...probably a couple times a weekend right?

 

[demlion]

perhaps, but this won't matter, legally speaking. If a person slits their wrists, but before they bleed-out, someone shoots them in the head, the cause of death is a gunshot wound to the head and murder, not suicide. The coroner determined that cause of death here was trauma from the fall(s).
The legal question is whether the fraternity broke any laws by serving Mr Piazza alcohol in excess and whether, legally, they had any responsibility to get him medical attention. Of course, the IFC ,Penn State, and the national fraternity chapter all have different rules and codes of conduct and will administer different consequences to the fraternity and individuals as they see fit.

They furnished alcohol to a minor. Not a very hard issue.

 

[humpydudas19]

They furnished alcohol to a minor. Not a very hard issue.

Who swilled it down with relish, gusto and anticipation.

 

[BBrown]

Of course it was an accident. If he wouldn't have fallen down the stairs he would have been fine the next day. Do you think the frat brothers gave him booze on purpose to kill him? Do you think that was their intent? I don't. As stated over and over again in this thread thousands of underage kids drink alcohol in excess every day. This makes them more at risk of fatal accidents. Most of the time the accidents don't happen. Sometimes they do. This whole incident was an unfortunate accident. However, in today's society, a group of kids who happened to be there at the time will have their lives ruined in retribution for what happened. Also, I'm sure the parents will get a scum bag lawyer who will sue the university for millions of dollars. The bill will be picked up by the Pennsylvania taxpayers of course.

Are you sure? his BAC was off the charts.
Yes they gave him booze on purpose. They didn't intend on it killing him but that doesn't let them off the hook. I doubt many Drunk Drivers intend to hurt or kill anyone either. I doubt the Bartender who is responsible for pouring the drinks didn't intend for anyone to get hurt or killed but again they are held accountable for their actions.
Sorry I disagree, like I said before, there were elements of this tragedy that were accidental (all by the victim) none of the actions of the Brothers were
accidental.
As for the last part I have no idea. I'm not sure how much the University is responsible.

 

[LemonEars]

I'm gonna throw it out there: Greek life is a relic, and it would not harm anyone for it to go the way of the dinosaur.

I have been a student, of sorts, for the better part of the past 14 years (26 if you include K-12).

With the price of college education, frat life is a damned distraction at best, and is harmful at worst. My kids will have zero part in this bullshit.

I agree. Greek life is a throwback to a bye gone era and should be phased out. I spent 3 years in a frat house at PSU in the late 1960s. When I look back, joining the frat was a big mistake. Life centered on booze, parties, and broads. It was fun but consumed so much of my time that my grades suffered and I never got to experience the best that PSU had to offer. I did have a lot of friends in the frat but these have faded away. I could have gotten so much more out of my PSU experience if I would have not joined the frat.

 

[demlion]

Who swilled it down with relish, gusto and anticipation.

Furnishing is a CRIME. Really having a hard time with this? The law places the burden on the adult. Settled law for many years.

 

[BBrown]

You see every year drunk students falling off State College balconies (As well as hundreds of other campuses across the country)...should all those at the parties who helped partake in binge drinking games be charged as well?

I would certainly hope so. The people who have the parties have a responsibility to make sure their guests are safe. Why do you think they confiscate keys at a lot
of parties?
There have been incidents where students have fallen to their deaths from balconies in the "canyon" does anyone know what happened to the people that
had the party? That would be interesting to find out.

 

[83wuzme]

Of course it was an accident. If he wouldn't have fallen down the stairs he would have been fine the next day. Do you think the frat brothers gave him booze on purpose to kill him? Do you think that was their intent? I don't. As stated over and over again in this thread thousands of underage kids drink alcohol in excess every day. This makes them more at risk of fatal accidents. Most of the time the accidents don't happen. Sometimes they do. This whole incident was an unfortunate accident. However, in today's society, a group of kids who happened to be there at the time will have their lives ruined in retribution for what happened. Also, I'm sure the parents will get a scum bag lawyer who will sue the university for millions of dollars. The bill will be picked up by the Pennsylvania taxpayers of course.

With an 0.40 BAC, I very much doubt he would have been fine the next day.
Every year, kids get alcohol poisoning on American college campuses. Some of them die, some are brain injured. You don't have to be pledging a fraternity for it to happen. However, the fact that this occurred as part of pledging activity with people overseeing the activity and later trying to hide evidence makes it a criminal matter

 

[BBrown]

With an 0.40 BAC, I very much doubt he would have been fine the next day.
Every year, kids get alcohol poisoning on American college campuses. Some of them die, some are brain injured. You don't have to be pledging a fraternity for it to happen. However, the fact that this occurred as part of pledging activity with people overseeing the activity and later trying to hide evidence makes it a criminal matter

BAC-Specific Effects
BAC Level Generalized Dose Specific Effects
0.200-0.249% Needs assistance in walking; total mental confusion. Dysphoria with nausea and vomiting; possible blackout.
0.250-0.399% Alcohol poisoning. Loss of consciousness.
0.40% + Onset of coma, possible death due to respiratory arrest.

Yea I"m not convinced he would have been "fine the next day" either.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Who swilled it down with relish, gusto and anticipation.

And a 14 year old girl might enjoy sexual intercourse with her 19 year old neighbor, but the 19year old will still be charged with statutory rape in most jurisdictions.

His drinking will mitigate some blame to others, but not close to all of it.

 

[demlion]

I agree. Greek life is a throwback to a bye gone era and should be phased out. I spent 3 years in a frat house at PSU in the late 1960s. When I look back, joining the frat was a big mistake. Life centered on booze, parties, and broads. It was fun but consumed so much of my time that my grades suffered and I never got to experience the best that PSU had to offer. I did have a lot of friends in the frat but these have faded away. I could have gotten so much more out of my PSU experience if I would have not joined the frat.

Watch out! Soon you'll be accused of anti-frat bias!

 

[Colorado Man]

I was in Pgh last month and a Carlow College student fell off a roof to his death. He was drunk, but it happened at a private residence. No police action. Several years ago three students at three Colorado colleges fell to their death. No police action, no action taken against the fraternities/sororities.

 

[fairgambit]

I agree. Greek life is a throwback to a bye gone era and should be phased out. I spent 3 years in a frat house at PSU in the late 1960s. When I look back, joining the frat was a big mistake. Life centered on booze, parties, and broads. It was fun but consumed so much of my time that my grades suffered and I never got to experience the best that PSU had to offer. I did have a lot of friends in the frat but these have faded away. I could have gotten so much more out of my PSU experience if I would have not joined the frat.

I was not in a frat. I was in a dorm for three years and spent my senior year in an apartment with 3 very good friends from my dorm. We are still good friends today. All of us are successful in our chosen careers. It may sound crazy, but I never touched a drop of alcohol until my senior year and I never got drunk a single time. Neither did any of my roommates. We all had 4 great years at Penn State. I am not trying to come of as "holier than thou". I just want to agree that being in a fraternity is not required for a terrific college experience.

 

[BBrown]

I was in Pgh last month and a Carlow College student fell off a roof to his death. He was drunk, but it happened at a private residence. No police action. Several years ago three students at three Colorado colleges fell to their death. No police action, no action taken against the fraternities/sororities.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
I have to say I'm kind of surprised at that.

 

[Obliviax]

No dumb people need to be better educated by their parents. Possibly monitored as well.

..and how long should parents helicopter their kids? Age 22, 26 46?

If only there was a place...a place that was half way between living at home and living as an independent adult....and if we create that place, perhaps we could educate them there as well.....and if that was too tough, perhaps a place that would be a shelter, a secondary shelter, in that place to make sure the kid had good guidance and oversight. Perhaps we could pretend they were Roman or something to make it seem more noble; more like a club or secondary family. A place where they'd be safe.

Ahhh...nevermind....just dreaming.

 

[dawgduice]

I was not in a frat. I was in a dorm for three years and spent my senior year in an apartment with 3 very good friends from my dorm. We are still good friends today. All of us are successful in our chosen careers. It may sound crazy, but I never touched a drop of alcohol until my senior year and I never got drunk a single time. Neither did any of my roommates. We all had 4 great years at Penn State. I am not trying to come of as "holier than thou". I just want to agree that being in a fraternity is not required for a terrific college experience.

Well said. I was in a fraternity and for the most part it represented a VERY immature me (sort of like extended HS). I am sure that was the case for most of the other "frat" guys if they are being honest.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

I never understood the need to pay to have friends, and only get to have them if I was spanked, drank profusely, and did an elephant walk.

That said, it's important to let the criminal process play itself out. The surveillance footage will be telling.

 

[KnightSlayer]

As a society, what is more important, helping someone or punishing someone? Say hypothetically, the frat calls 911 after the first fall and the kid is treated and survives. Then the authorities decide to go after the frat, several upperclassmen are punished with a criminal record and kicked out of school. Now they have 100K+ in debt, a criminal record and no degree. Is it unreasonable for young men to think it's worth the risk to just let the drunk person just sleep it off? Like someone said above, 99.9% of the time, that works out fine. If there were no fear of life crippling punishment, do you think the frat would have called 911? People ripped Joe because he made the team clean the stadium as punishment. Isn't punishment meant to teach a lesson better than punishment that ruins your life before it even starts. There are kids denied the chance to go to college because they got involved in drugs in high school. How does that benefit society? You reap what you sow and, this is the society we have sown. People will continue to make this choice when making this risk reward decision. Do nothing and almost always everything will turn out okay or, help someone and almost definitely end up with life altering punishment.

 

[dclionsfan]

Hazing needs to stop. It's dumb.

 

[LemonEars]

Watch out! Soon you'll be accused of anti-frat bias!

The accusation would be justified. I'm still resentful that I wasted much of my time at PSU in a 3-year drunken stupor at the frat I joined. My GPA dropped from 3.9 to 3.2 over the 3 years in the frat. I didn't participate in any PSU extra-curricular activities at all due to the partying and drinking. Joining a frat was a big mistake for me. I would not recommend it for anyone.

 

[LemonEars]

I was not in a frat. I was in a dorm for three years and spent my senior year in an apartment with 3 very good friends from my dorm. We are still good friends today. All of us are successful in our chosen careers. It may sound crazy, but I never touched a drop of alcohol until my senior year and I never got drunk a single time. Neither did any of my roommates. We all had 4 great years at Penn State. I am not trying to come of as "holier than thou". I just want to agree that being in a fraternity is not required for a terrific college experience.

I envy you fairgambit. This is the course I wish I would have taken at PSU. I spent 3 years living at a frat and most of the time was in a drunken stupor. One good outcome is that once I graduated and came to my senses I decided to never touch alcohol again. I haven't taken a drink in decades.

 

[fairgambit]

I was in Pgh last month and a Carlow College student fell off a roof to his death. He was drunk, but it happened at a private residence. No police action. Several years ago three students at three Colorado colleges fell to their death. No police action, no action taken against the fraternities/sororities.

I am not familiar with those events, but it is likely the facts are different. Even if they are similar, some jurisdictions take matters like this more seriously. I am not one to rush to judgment. As a lawyer, based upon what I know, there was sufficient evidence to file charges and, if I were a prosecutor, I would have done so. The justice system will determine their guilt or innocence.

 

[Obliviax]

As a society, what is more important, helping someone or punishing someone? Say hypothetically, the frat calls 911 after the first fall and the kid is treated and survives. Then the authorities decide to go after the frat, several upperclassmen are punished with a criminal record and kicked out of school. Now they have 100K+ in debt, a criminal record and no degree. Is it unreasonable for young men to think it's worth the risk to just let the drunk person just sleep it off? Like someone said above, 99.9% of the time, that works out fine. If there were no fear of life crippling punishment, do you think the frat would have called 911? People ripped Joe because he made the team clean the stadium as punishment. Isn't punishment meant to teach a lesson better than punishment that ruins your life before it even starts. There are kids denied the chance to go to college because they got involved in drugs in high school. How does that benefit society? You reap what you sow and, this is the society we have sown. People will continue to make this choice when making this risk reward decision. Do nothing and almost always everything will turn out okay or, help someone and almost definitely end up with life altering punishment.

Sometimes the coverup is a worse crime.

Lets start at the beginning. Stop serving booze to underage kids. Stop hazing. Be helpful, not a detractor. If you have time to kill time, volunteer to help someone. If something goes wrong, address it immediately to mitigate the damages/blowback.

We know kids are going to drink and make bad choices...its part of college life. We don't have to institutionally condone or, worse, promote it.

And, in the end, if a frat or anybody breaks the rules, they have to pay the price. That is the "real world" and that's what college needs to try to teach. So, hopefully, 60,000 kids can watch and learn and take corrective action while 30 kids pay the price for their exponentially dumb decisions.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

The accusation would be justified. I'm still resentful that I wasted much of my time at PSU in a 3-year drunken stupor at the frat I joined. My GPA dropped from 3.9 to 3.2 over the 3 years in the frat. I didn't participate in any PSU extra-curricular activities at all due to the partying and drinking. Joining a frat was a big mistake for me. I would not recommend it for anyone.

LemonEars,

I'm curious: What led you to join the frat in the first place, and during your tenure in it, did you ever think of "getting out?"

I guess I never understood what makes people join frats in the first place--whether it be in the 1960s or today. I know campus was much different then vs. now, but I still don't understand.

Today with abundant residence halls and off-campus housing, students truly don't need to "go Greek" to have an enriching college experience.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Sometimes the coverup is a worse crime.

Lets start at the beginning. Stop serving booze to underage kids. Stop hazing. Be helpful, not a detractor. If you have time to kill, volunteer to help someone. If something goes wrong, address it immediately to mitigate the damages/blowback.

We know kids are going to drink and make bad choices...its part of college life. We don't have to institutionally condone or, worse, promote it.

And, in the end, if a frat or anybody breaks the rules, they have to pay the price. That is the "real world" and that's what college needs to try to teach. So, hopefully, 60,000 kids can watch and learn and take corrective action while 30 kids pay the price for their exponentially dumb decisions.

Maybe if our country didn't police itself so damn much and let kids actually grow up without such taboos on everything....they would start to make better decisions at an earlier age. Different topic for a different day, but our country is so damn immature about personal liberties that they breed this stupid culture.

 

[fairgambit]

I envy you fairgambit. This is the course I wish I would have taken at PSU. I spent 3 years living at a frat and most of the time was in a drunken stupor. One good outcome is that once I graduated and came to my senses I decided to never touch alcohol again. I haven't taken a drink in decades.

It's funny because, through the years, I have had a bit of envy for fraternity members. At homecoming they can go back to their frat houses and turn back the clock. My apartment was Beaver Terrace. I don't know if it's still there, but even if so, I'm not likely to go back and relive my college days. I do think frats can serve a purpose if the bacchanal is kept to a minimum.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

I am not familiar with those events, but it is likely the facts are different. Even if they are similar, some jurisdictions take matters like this more seriously. I am not one to rush to judgment. As a lawyer, based upon what I know, there was sufficient evidence to file charges and, if I were a prosecutor, I would have done so. The justice system will determine their guilt or innocence.

In March 2006 a student fell from a University Terrace (behind Burger King off University Drive) balcony when the railing gave way. It was a 15-foot fall and the student was immediately paralyzed--the incident led to his death in 2009. The incident didn't lead to criminal charges but the family settled with UT's owner in 2007. "Better railing" was the only thing that changed at UT.

Parties & drunkenness continued unabated. Programs like DARE are totally worthless.

I'm not defending frats with the above stuff either--just trying to show that ridiculous behavior happens off campus too.

 

[maxxedout]

Maybe underage drinking and furnishing alcohol to minors should be decriminalized and be turned into citations to take this out of the equation.

As a society, what is more important, helping someone or punishing someone? Say hypothetically, the frat calls 911 after the first fall and the kid is treated and survives. Then the authorities decide to go after the frat, several upperclassmen are punished with a criminal record and kicked out of school. Now they have 100K+ in debt, a criminal record and no degree. Is it unreasonable for young men to think it's worth the risk to just let the drunk person just sleep it off? Like someone said above, 99.9% of the time, that works out fine. If there were no fear of life crippling punishment, do you think the frat would have called 911? People ripped Joe because he made the team clean the stadium as punishment. Isn't punishment meant to teach a lesson better than punishment that ruins your life before it even starts. There are kids denied the chance to go to college because they got involved in drugs in high school. How does that benefit society? You reap what you sow and, this is the society we have sown. People will continue to make this choice when making this risk reward decision. Do nothing and almost always everything will turn out okay or, help someone and almost definitely end up with life altering punishment.

is w

 

[fairgambit]

In March 2006 a student fell from a University Terrace (behind Burger King off University Drive) balcony when the railing gave way. It was a 15-foot fall and the student was immediately paralyzed--the incident led to his death in 2009. The incident didn't lead to criminal charges but the family settled with UT's owner in 2007. "Better railing" was the only thing that changed at UT.
Parties & drunkenness continued unabated. Programs like DARE are totally worthless.
I'm not defending frats with the above stuff either--just trying to show that ridiculous behavior happens off campus too.

I agree that poor choices are not limited to those in fraternities. While my friends and I were not drinkers, others in our apartment building were, but I do think the use of alcohol was more limited. It may just be that when there are 30/40 guys around, someone will always want to drink. When there are 3 or 4, it's probably easier to stay sober.