I am with you. I didn't miss a Steelers game for decades. Gave that up for college and now haven't watched a college game for at least 5 years.
House v. NCAA/NIL/Revenue sharing/Roster caps/Scholarship limits
- Thread starter El-Jefe
- Start date
The trade-off is a drop in donations to the school by the alums and interest by potential students. Possibly this more than evens out, maybe not.
Meanwhile, scholarships are being reported to being slashed at Wisconsin and Michigan State:
Corby on 34: "Wrestling won't be added at any power 5 schools anytime soon with revenue sharing happening. Some Big 10 schools will be cutting wrestling scholarships next year. Wisconsin and Michigan st will be at 5 from 9.9. Willie also said he's been told the same. If wrestling is added as a D1 sport it will be at smaller schools. Wrestling is in trouble as are many Olympic sports. Olympic sports will become club sports at many universities which will suck"
Corby on 34: "Wrestling won't be added at any power 5 schools anytime soon with revenue sharing happening. Some Big 10 schools will be cutting wrestling scholarships next year. Wisconsin and Michigan st will be at 5 from 9.9. Willie also said he's been told the same. If wrestling is added as a D1 sport it will be at smaller schools. Wrestling is in trouble as are many Olympic sports. Olympic sports will become club sports at many universities which will suck"
A B10 coach told us something similar - that WI was dropping to 6. This could be devastating. If B10 schools are significsntly cutting schollys, most schools (especially if they have football) are in trouble.
We have a dog in the hunt and are waiting to hear if there will be any impact at his school. It's a stressful time even at schools with pretty healthy finances.
This is what I suspected would happen. Collateral damage in an arms race.
Let's face it. Wrestling programs operate in the red and are after thoughts at many schools. Many schools are going to cut programs partially or even totally. Everything except football and pumpkin chucking will be on the chopping block.
Schools will drop sports so fast so they can give football and basketball 80% of that 20 mill rev share (money driving sports )
I’ve long thought that “country club” sports should be more self-funded anyway. Maybe this will finally move things in that direction.
Thought this might be a good place to drop this:
Time stamped to 5:52 where Cael talks about the new 30 roster limit/scholarship rules
Cael basically says he doesn't anticipate having near 30 scholarships to work with despite it being allowed now. He declined to state a number he thinks he can give. He basically said it's not as simple as people want to make it sound (as many here alluded) and the athletic department has to be evaluated wholistically. That being said, like always, he spoke highly of Pat Kraft's support.
It makes sense since Cael is likely talking from a point of view of being endowed (which the 9.9 currently is, the next 20.1 obviously won't come overnight) I am guessing what will happen is basically Cael basically can offer more scholarship money but it'll have to be covered from revenue sharing annually, which isn't ideal for now. I'm sure if Cael goes to Kraft and says I have this top XYZ recruit and I can get him for a full, Kraft will absolutely commit to it. But as of now, he isn't going to blindly throw full scholarships to high school recruits just to use him (nor should he)
He also expressed disappointment that 6-7 kids effectively have to be cut to make the numbers work. He said those kids are always the most grateful to be a part of the team, are the hardest workers and set the right example and absolutely huge for team chemistry as well. Cael has a good poker face at hiding his emotions but you can tell this hurts for him to talk about.
Time stamped to 5:52 where Cael talks about the new 30 roster limit/scholarship rules
Cael basically says he doesn't anticipate having near 30 scholarships to work with despite it being allowed now. He declined to state a number he thinks he can give. He basically said it's not as simple as people want to make it sound (as many here alluded) and the athletic department has to be evaluated wholistically. That being said, like always, he spoke highly of Pat Kraft's support.
It makes sense since Cael is likely talking from a point of view of being endowed (which the 9.9 currently is, the next 20.1 obviously won't come overnight) I am guessing what will happen is basically Cael basically can offer more scholarship money but it'll have to be covered from revenue sharing annually, which isn't ideal for now. I'm sure if Cael goes to Kraft and says I have this top XYZ recruit and I can get him for a full, Kraft will absolutely commit to it. But as of now, he isn't going to blindly throw full scholarships to high school recruits just to use him (nor should he)
He also expressed disappointment that 6-7 kids effectively have to be cut to make the numbers work. He said those kids are always the most grateful to be a part of the team, are the hardest workers and set the right example and absolutely huge for team chemistry as well. Cael has a good poker face at hiding his emotions but you can tell this hurts for him to talk about.
Scholarships so 2024, going take more than a full Scholarship to get a top 10 pfp hammers.
I disagree with this.
I think Cael is just reflecting on the reality of roster retention vs. the 30. I count 16 kids on the current roster that are worthy of a full scholarship. 16, not 30, and people are saying this might be the greatest team of all time. Next year that number will likely be 18.
What's the realistic maximum for this? 20? Why would anyone really need more than 20ish full scholarships? Cael's a pretty smart guy. We'll probably have 18 next year.
I think you're on the right track, but it might not be that quick. PSU only allocates scholarships from fully endowed funds, and we might not get to 18 endowed wrestling scholarships that soon.
Also, some of the existing scholarships are weight-specific. That shouldn't be an issue long-term as more scholarships are endowed, but could require some juggling of allocations in the near term.
As most of you know there are new roster size limits for NCAA sports that will be in place for the 2025-2026 school year. Wrestling was allotted 30 roster spots going forward (down from unlimited?) and will be able to offer 30 full scholarships, up from 9.9 scholarships. All sports now are able to offer partial scholarships so that has not changed for wrestling other than the total amount of scholarships available.
So what does the roster math look like right now and how does Penn State get to only 30 on their roster for the 2025-26 season?
-Right now, Penn State's wrestling roster lists 38 wrestlers at the end of the year.
-At senior day there were 10 wrestlers that walked and apparently will no longer be on the team. Greg Kerkvliet did not walk but he is out of eligibility and walked last year. So, a total of 11 leaving the program.
-In addition, 4 Penn State wrestlers (Facundo, AJF, Evans and Steen) entered the transfer portal. I listed Vespa previously but he is not on the roster.
-So with all that attrition the roster will be down to 23.
Now the additions. Penn State has 6 freshmen arriving this fall in Blaze, Dule, Desmond, Perry, Cunningham, and Henckel. Oh, and don't forget about our foreign exchange student Ono to make a total of 7 additions right now.
By my count that means that the roster will be at 30 with those additions so they are at the limit right now. Obviously if we wanted to bring in a transfer we would need to offset each one with a roster departure.
I am sure Cael likes the additional scholarships so he doesn't have to stretch the 9.9 anymore, but it will certainly impact his ability to add a lot of quality depth.
Hope my math and info are correct but let me know any errors and I'll update the post.
So what does the roster math look like right now and how does Penn State get to only 30 on their roster for the 2025-26 season?
-Right now, Penn State's wrestling roster lists 38 wrestlers at the end of the year.
-At senior day there were 10 wrestlers that walked and apparently will no longer be on the team. Greg Kerkvliet did not walk but he is out of eligibility and walked last year. So, a total of 11 leaving the program.
-In addition, 4 Penn State wrestlers (Facundo, AJF, Evans and Steen) entered the transfer portal. I listed Vespa previously but he is not on the roster.
-So with all that attrition the roster will be down to 23.
Now the additions. Penn State has 6 freshmen arriving this fall in Blaze, Dule, Desmond, Perry, Cunningham, and Henckel. Oh, and don't forget about our foreign exchange student Ono to make a total of 7 additions right now.
By my count that means that the roster will be at 30 with those additions so they are at the limit right now. Obviously if we wanted to bring in a transfer we would need to offset each one with a roster departure.
I am sure Cael likes the additional scholarships so he doesn't have to stretch the 9.9 anymore, but it will certainly impact his ability to add a lot of quality depth.
Hope my math and info are correct but let me know any errors and I'll update the post.
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Would they need a scholly for Cunningham, sine his dad is employee ... and same with Perry??
I suppose NIL $ could address unfunded schollys ??
I suppose NIL $ could address unfunded schollys ??
By my count they have studs at #1 and #2 for every weight but HWT right now. That’s 19 guys with top notch resumes. The backups could be top 5. The guys transferring out were here 3 yrs I believe and can’t break in.
Schools can have a roster up to 30 wrestlers, and up to 30 scholarships. Cunningham and Perry will count.
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Scholarship -- not necessarily. They still count on the roster limit.
I wonder if any incoming recruits grayshirt. That would help solve the issue.
Makes sense. Cornell has done that for years with FLWC, to get around the Ivy 4-year restriction.
If that happens, anybody on the NLWC roster could not compete in any duals or attached at any Opens for the full year.
April 7 is the NCAA hearing to decide the roster limits. So we should know very soon what is going to happen in 25-26.
How Will NCAA Revenue Sharing Affect College Wrestling? - FloWrestling
A primer for how the new revenue sharing model brought about by the House vs NCAA lawsuit will change college wrestling as we know it.
www.flowrestling.org
It’s going to become harder for sure. I believe The Brain and Basch talked about NIL moving forward starting April 9th this year (could be wrong on the date). But essentially they were saying NIL deals will have to go thru compliance officers to seem they are market value. To me, for in a non revenue generating sport, says that a lot of these athletes being overpaid will not continue to be the norm as the NIL market value will not be there unless they build up their brand and social media. As much as we give AJF crap, he’s built himself to be a villain. Carter was similar in his approach to Social Media and similarly Bo Bassett is that way.
DT can try to poach athletes from us but he’s not going to be able to give them anymore of a bag then we can give them
We'll see. I'm not so convinced -- meaning it sounds good on paper, but probably won't work that way in practice.
Some schools are historically more compliant with the same rules than others. We're seeing that now, with how brazenly schools initiate contact with athletes who aren't in the portal.
And no school will have enough compliance officers to subject every deal in every sport to a reasonableness test. Likely they'll focus on football and basketball. For other sports, they'll either ignore everything but the outliers. Or hamfistedly reject everything outside their metrics. Or restrict athletes to pre-approved deals with the schools' collectives.
Actually basch and willy stated the compliance comes from an independent third party not necessarily the school but I'm sure affiliated somehow. And I agree if the third party says hey kid you are not worth 300000 but only 200000 what's to stop some guy named Bob from sliding 100000 under your door in cash. Lol. Also, willy discussed these nil deals including tuition and fees rent etc as part of the deal and it not only being a bag of cash. Never really thought of it like that but it makes sense
Oh wonderful. Compliance officers (i.e. lawyers) assessing "market value". Can't wait to see that calculation:
FB:
Senior Starting Linebacker 6-3. 240. 375 Bench 4.6 40 35 inch vertical. 103 tackles, Butkus award finalist as 3rd year.
MBB:
Junior Starting PowerForward 6-8, 225. 22PPG, 5.0 APG,
MW:
Jr. 149/157 WC, 24-5, 5 Falls, 5TF, 4MD. Conference Runner up, AA, NCAA 3rd.
Hey, where's the stats for a Woman's Field Hockey Midfielder?
You think the NCAA, conferences, and schools are gonna pay lawyer salaries for this?
Maybe a lawyer here or there to ensure everything is kosher, but the bulk of the work will be done by HR types.
But you're on the right track -- it'll be a calculation. My employer (Fortune 100 company) has salary curves based on market surveys -- they look up your skill code, location, yrs experience, and promotion level -- and that's your new salary when you start a new job. Hiring managers "have the final decision" lol, must fight tooth and nail to justify changing the number from the curve.
That will likely be the model for compliance offices to determine NIL "market value." If that sounds craptastic, well, that's because it is.
If Joe Blow wants to pay a wrestler $500k, or $3M, or whatever, and the wrestler agrees, then that’s the market price by definition, right? What makes some bureaucrat an expert who knows better than the donor and the wrestler?
I don't necessarily think they're going to assign values to athletes, at least in any transparent way. Finding a particular athlete's intrinsic value, if that's even a realistic goal, would be only one factor anyway and not the most important factor.
That's because the main question they'll be trying to answer is whether a particular contract is fraudulent, and to answer that you'd start with what services the contract is asking the athlete to perform. Like real estate there are lots of comparables to reference. And you can price in the value differences between sports before you get to individuals as well--football players' endorsements are worth more than wrestlers'. You'd also ask who the contractor is--do they actually have something to sell or did they create a fiction?
The thinking that the starting point is calculating an athlete's intrinsic value buys into the exact idea using an outside agency is trying to dispel. An NIL deal is a contract to perform some service--look there first and if it makes sense, check yes and move on.
That's because the main question they'll be trying to answer is whether a particular contract is fraudulent, and to answer that you'd start with what services the contract is asking the athlete to perform. Like real estate there are lots of comparables to reference. And you can price in the value differences between sports before you get to individuals as well--football players' endorsements are worth more than wrestlers'. You'd also ask who the contractor is--do they actually have something to sell or did they create a fiction?
The thinking that the starting point is calculating an athlete's intrinsic value buys into the exact idea using an outside agency is trying to dispel. An NIL deal is a contract to perform some service--look there first and if it makes sense, check yes and move on.
One thing to make clear is that the hearing for the settlement is next week and it might not necessarily be final. After terms of the settlement are final then there must be an implementation date. It is a certainty there will be legal challenges because the players or the athletes in this case have had no say whatsoever in the terms of the agreement. Therefore all of the legal challenges will likely delay the implementation beyond the 25-26 season. On another point the NCAA will set up an independent group to analyze all NIL deals over $600. For example, if someone gets a bag of cash, let's say $300,000 to do a one minute commercial, that is likely to be refused or negated. All deals must have 'fair market value'. But again all of this is still up in the air because there's another hearing on this whole deal and then a final settlement and then an implementation date and then lawsuits with injunctions. It is a mess right now and everything is fluid.
My understanding of the terms of the proposed settlement is that the independent committee set up by the NCAA will evaluate any NIL deal over $600 to determine 'fair market value' so if someone gets a huge bag of cash for a 30 second commercial that will be rejected. Of course that sets up challenges or lawsuits. It is a big fluid mess right now and nothing is for certain
It is simply not known yet what the NCAA committee that approves or disproves deals uses for criteria for fair market value. No one really knows what will happen.
Regardless of what some compliance officer determines is fair market value, there will always be a workaround. It is my understanding that colleges through their collectives, like Happy Valley United will coordinate the Nil deals for compliance, which is part of the reason why Cael hired an NIL staffer. But that does not limit the athlete from going outside of the school and Happy Valley United to make their own unregulated NIL deals. And what further muddy's the water here is that there are state rules and laws and then there will be the new NCAA rules. This is bound to trigger another lawsuit.
