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" The bridge can survive a F5 storm,can't survive a sunny Thursday in Miami"? 10-25-18 UP-DATE:

step.eng69

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Nov 7, 2012
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North East PA, Backmountain area, age 75
Although the content is very interesting i'm actually here for the foul language. :cool:
Enjoy the video :D The comments are interesting.

"THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT ANALYSIS and WILD-ASS THEORIES! I ran a test to see why the post tension rod was sticking out of the rubble. There was a problem with cracking on the pylon side of the bridge. As my homebrew experiment proves the rod must have failed during tensioning just before the bridge collapsed". Engineering Forum http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cf... Reddit.com/r/engineering



 
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Huge fan of AVE. He dumbs things down enough for simple-heads like me to understand. Dude is smart and I love tools that have "Skookum".

His take down of the Harbor Freight Earthquake "stubby" impact gun was one of his better ones in a awhile.

Absolutely a great way to kill 40 minutes.

"Focus you F**K."
 
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Huge fan of AVE. He dumbs things down enough for simple-heads like me to understand. Dude is smart and I love tools that have "Skookum".

His take down of the Harbor Freight Earthquake "stubby" impact gun was one of his better ones in a awhile.

Absolutely a great way to kill 40 minutes.

"Focus you F**K."
First time i've heard of him (AvE). My employer sent the video to me, and I enjoyed the video and thought i'd share.
 
Although the content is very interesting i'm actually here for the foul language. :cool:
Enjoy the video :D The comments are interesting.

"THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT ANALYSIS and WILD-ASS THEORIES! I ran a test to see why the post tension rod was sticking out of the rubble. There was a problem with cracking on the pylon side of the bridge. As my homebrew experiment proves the rod must have failed during tensioning just before the bridge collapsed". Engineering Forum http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cf... Reddit.com/r/engineering



Hey step how are you. What would be your thoughts on the concrete not being cured enough or maybe to much sun not enough water in the curing process while they poured the concrete. Generated to much heat causing the craking in the concrete. The water would be after the concrete was finished to slow the cure down.
 
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Hey step how are you. What would be your thoughts on the concrete not being cured enough or maybe to much sun not enough water in the curing process while they poured the concrete. Generated to much heat causing the craking in the concrete. The water would be after the concrete was finished to slow the cure down.
Possible. Most likely the post tensioning caused the failure. The conditions that lead up to it have yet to be determined.

Why in the world would you work on tensioning the rods with live traffic under the bridge? If the answer was that there was no way tensioning of the rods could have caused the collapse of the bridge then other issues like bad concrete, etc. might play into it.
 
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Hey step how are you. What would be your thoughts on the concrete not being cured enough or maybe to much sun not enough water in the curing process while they poured the concrete. Generated to much heat causing the cracking in the concrete. The water would be after the concrete was finished to slow the cure down.
I believe the concrete was pre-cast off site. Maybe i'm wrong. The quality control of off site pre-cast is usually very good due to the controlled concrete quality & cure conditions. I'm not saying the concrete quality (in this case) in the deck was totally within specifications, but materials prior to failure will experience a progression thru the materials stress-strain and will exhibit considerable deformation before failure. In other words, you'll see concrete softening (stretching) after it reaches it's ultimate strength then transition into failure.
The bridge won't experience sudden "explosion" failing, like a wooded baseball bat cracking in half.


The main structural strength of the deck was induced thru the post tensioning of the cables.

When I first heard of the collapse I assumed it was a cable stayed structure. As more information was released that evening, I immediately figured it was a post-tension problem wrt the cables thru the concrete slab.

I'll refer to one of the comments in the article:

Paulo Roberto3 days ago

"I am a civil engineer and I would like to express some points. These actual super duper structures are based on calculations of advanced mathematic techniques, These computer programs take in consideration so many variables that it makes almost impossible to control in construction sites. Every element is affecting the next one and so on, the stress and shear forces are dynamically calculated in the computer model . As already mentioned, a structural collapse is a sum of multiple failures, and it's very hard to manipulate those structures in situ. Once you make a change in one support, you are changing the whole model, affecting the tensions in all elements, the tensions tend to travel to less stressed elements that are not supposed to handle it. If the model is supposed to be supported with on only 2 nodes, when you put another support in the middle, it start to act like a continuous beam.creating all kinds of different tensions in the element. It's an unfortunate case of mishandle the the tensions on the site. Once one or more? rods were subject to tensions above the limit, the steel would break after passing the fluidity limit ( when it loose it's traction capacity ). And I guess that they were already working almost on the limit of their capacity, the security loads for this kind of elements are very high."
 
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Although the content is very interesting i'm actually here for the foul language. :cool:
Enjoy the video :D The comments are interesting.

"THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT ANALYSIS and WILD-ASS THEORIES! I ran a test to see why the post tension rod was sticking out of the rubble. There was a problem with cracking on the pylon side of the bridge. As my homebrew experiment proves the rod must have failed during tensioning just before the bridge collapsed". Engineering Forum http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cf... Reddit.com/r/engineering



Hey @step.eng69 how often did brand new bridges collapse in the old days? Only one I can think of that's famous is the Tacoma Narrows bridge. Is it possible that the tolerances are too tight in some modern designs? I don't see that big bridge in West Virginia collapsing anytime soon, do you?
 
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I believe the concrete was pre-cast off site. Maybe i'm wrong. The quality control of off site pre-cast is usually very good due to the controlled concrete quality & cure conditions. I'm not saying the concrete quality (in this case) in the deck was totally within specifications, but materials prior to failure will experience a progression thru the materials stress-strain and will exhibit considerable deformation before failure. In other words, you'll see concrete softening (stretching) after it reaches it's ultimate strength then transition into failure.
The bridge won't experience sudden "explosion" failing, like a wooded baseball bat cracking in half.



The main structural strength of the deck was induced thru the post tensioning of the cables.

When I first heard of the collapse I assumed it was a cable stayed structure. As more information was released that evening, I immediately figured it was a post-tension problem wrt the cables thru the concrete slab.

I'll refer to one of the comments in the article:

Paulo Roberto3 days ago

"I am a civil engineer and I would like to express some points. These actual super duper structures are based on calculations of advanced mathematic techniques, These computer programs take in consideration so many variables that it makes almost impossible to control in construction sites. Every element is affecting the next one and so on, the stress and shear forces are dynamically calculated in the computer model . As already mentioned, a structural collapse is a sum of multiple failures, and it's very hard to manipulate those structures in situ. Once you make a change in one support, you are changing the whole model, affecting the tensions in all elements, the tensions tend to travel to less stressed elements that are not supposed to handle it. If the model is supposed to be supported with on only 2 nodes, when you put another support in the middle, it start to act like a continuous beam.creating all kinds of different tensions in the element. It's an unfortunate case of mishandle the the tensions on the site. Once one or more? rods were subject to tensions above the limit, the steel would break after passing the fluidity limit ( when it loose it's traction capacity ). And I guess that they were already working almost on the limit of their capacity, the security loads for this kind of elements are very high."

The break happens right where they were doing the work.

Terrible situation.

LdN
 
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Although the content is very interesting i'm actually here for the foul language. :cool:
Enjoy the video :D The comments are interesting.

"THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT ANALYSIS and WILD-ASS THEORIES! I ran a test to see why the post tension rod was sticking out of the rubble. There was a problem with cracking on the pylon side of the bridge. As my homebrew experiment proves the rod must have failed during tensioning just before the bridge collapsed". Engineering Forum http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cf... Reddit.com/r/engineering



Sounds a little Canadian eh...:D
 
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Hey @step.eng69 how often did brand new bridges collapse in the old days? Only one I can think of that's famous is the Tacoma Narrows bridge. Is it possible that the tolerances are too tight in some modern designs? I don't see that big bridge in West Virginia collapsing anytime soon, do you?
I had just started in the Harrisburg Bridge division of Michael Baker Jr. in June of 69', two years after this tragedy...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Bridge

"On December 15, 1967, the Silver Bridge collapsed while it was full of rush-hour traffic, resulting in the deaths of 46 people. Two of the victims were never found. Investigation of the wreckage pointed to the cause of the collapse being the failure of a single eyebar in a suspension chain, due to a small defect 0.1 inches (2.5 mm) deep. Analysis showed that the bridge was carrying much heavier loads than it had originally been designed for and had been poorly maintained".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was on a team of 10-12 engineers & draftsmen @ Michael Baker working on the New River Gorge Bridge, your reference above, off and on for about 3 1/2 years. We had a few accidents due to heavy winds thru the Gorge, bringing down a constructed 300 foot high steel columns rising from the arch to the deck 300' above. Also, on the onset of construction of one of the concrete abutments, the high temporary suspensions cables used to carry materials-concrete & steel across the Gorge failed and steel fell into the concrete forms being constructed killing one and injuring a half dozen of other workers.

link: https://transportation.wv.gov/highw...es/PublishingImages/New-River_BASE-Jumper.jpg
 
Hey @step.eng69 how often did brand new bridges collapse in the old days? Only one I can think of that's famous is the Tacoma Narrows bridge. Is it possible that the tolerances are too tight in some modern designs? I don't see that big bridge in West Virginia collapsing anytime soon, do you?

It happened plenty of times. In fact, overall, I would bet a very large amount of money that these things happen much less these days.
 
The break happens right where they were doing the work.

Terrible situation.

LdN
the "explosion" of the bridge failure seems to indicate that the post tensioning process strained the deck cables beyond their ultimate strength and then broke.

i believe one of the news articles mentioned that workers were "re-tensioning" the deck cables when the collapse occurred. if the cables were already stresses to their yield strength in the first post tension process then a second post tensioning shouldn't be performed because the cable has already been stressed (stretched) to allowable capacity. Similar to high strength bolts....
once the bolts is tensioned to the required torque-tension, it should not be removed and tensioned again.
 
the "explosion" of the bridge failure seems to indicate that the post tensioning process strained the deck cables beyond their ultimate strength and then broke.

i believe one of the news articles mentioned that workers were "re-tensioning" the deck cables when the collapse occurred. if the cables were already stresses to their yield strength in the first post tension process then a second post tensioning shouldn't be performed because the cable has already been stressed (stretched) to allowable capacity. Similar to high strength bolts....
once the bolts is tensioned to the required torque-tension, it should not be removed and tensioned again.
Step. Why would they make the cables tighter. They are pre stressed cables right ? There shouldn’t be adjustment after the concrete is poured. I am referring to the deck cables. I think there were suspension cables also.
 
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the "explosion" of the bridge failure seems to indicate that the post tensioning process strained the deck cables beyond their ultimate strength and then broke.

i believe one of the news articles mentioned that workers were "re-tensioning" the deck cables when the collapse occurred. if the cables were already stresses to their yield strength in the first post tension process then a second post tensioning shouldn't be performed because the cable has already been stressed (stretched) to allowable capacity. Similar to high strength bolts....
once the bolts is tensioned to the required torque-tension, it should not be removed and tensioned again.
Now that i look closer there weren’t suspension cables but more like a truss design Do you think there were cables running through the top cord of the truss design. I think you would call it that
 
Step. Why would they make the cables tighter. They are pre stressed cables right ? There shouldn’t be adjustment after the concrete is poured. I am referring to the deck cables. I think there were suspension cables also.
Not pre-stressed, they were post tensioned cables. Post–tension cables are used in concrete construction to allow thinner slabs and greater span lengths between support columns. These cables, composed of steel wires inserted into a plastic sheath, are subsequently "tensioned" and grouted after the concrete is poured. pibc below.

concretenetwork-com_12578.jpg

Tendon (cable) tails after tensioning. The cables are pulled to 33,000 pounds, resulting in 8 inches of elongation in a 100-foot cable. www.avalonstructural.com

Most prestressed concrete products are prefabricated in a factory and must be transported to the construction site, which limits their size. Examples of pretensioned products are balcony elements, lintels, columns, solid slabs, hollow core slabs, tees, walls, sandwich panels, ledger beams, I-beams, bulb-T beams and foundation piles. The cables that run thru the beams are stressed, then the concrete is placed in the form work to create a finished product.
 
I think there were suspension cables also.
The cables from the top of the towers appears to be cable stayed supports, not draped suspension. The whole design seem stupid & expensive. But that's MO, definitely could be wrong. Too early to make judgment of the design, waiting for the forensic report. They created a post tension deck incorporated into a truss system, then create a cable stayed system to support the truss? Cable stayed examples below:

f313ec6bdb3bb6d5fb56872d9feaba39.jpg
 
Do you think there were cables running through the top cord of the truss design.
i don't know they type of steel provided in the top chord. It's in compression, so possibly just reinforcement bars and ties suffice in the chord elements. I went back to look at a portion of the video and noticed that the truss diagonal members to the left of the span on the drawings are sloped greater than 45 degrees from the vertical making them too shallow of a slope to proficiently direct the axial forces from lower to top chord. Must be substantial bending forces created in those couple of diagonals. Usually you would only design the diagonals to carry axial compression or tension forces, with minimal bending forces.
 
i don't know they type of steel provided in the top chord. It's in compression, so possibly just reinforcement bars and ties suffice in the chord elements. I went back to look at a portion of the video and noticed that the truss diagonal members to the left of the span on the drawings are sloped greater than 45 degrees from the vertical making them too shallow of a slope to proficiently direct the axial forces from lower to top chord. Must be substantial bending forces created in those couple of diagonals. Usually you would only design the diagonals to carry axial compression or tension forces, with minimal bending forces.
The diagonals are designed to line up with the cable stays to be installed later.
 
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Think of the North Endzone cables. They were added after construction, then tensioned.
Oh and Step, Michael Baker was a client of mine for a while-small world.
 
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The diagonals are designed to line up with the cable stays to be installed later.
Got ya wilbury, thanks. So then, the truss system is not performing as a true truss and the cable stay is contributing to the support of the truss? I'm wondering if a the point of the left pier support, the diagonal (treated as a truss only) is in compression, and the cable which parallels or coincides with the diagonal is in tension?
 
I believe the concrete was pre-cast off site. Maybe i'm wrong. The quality control of off site pre-cast is usually very good due to the controlled concrete quality & cure conditions. I'm not saying the concrete quality (in this case) in the deck was totally within specifications, but materials prior to failure will experience a progression thru the materials stress-strain and will exhibit considerable deformation before failure. In other words, you'll see concrete softening (stretching) after it reaches it's ultimate strength then transition into failure.
The bridge won't experience sudden "explosion" failing, like a wooded baseball bat cracking in half.



The main structural strength of the deck was induced thru the post tensioning of the cables.
."
I was watching this video and noticed the school bus in the right lane...imagine the collapse happening as the bus went underneath (have no idea if it was loaded with kids ....hard to tell from the video)
 
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Think of the North Endzone cables. They were added after construction, then tensioned.
Oh and Step, Michael Baker was a client of mine for a while-small world.
Green, are you talking about the post-tensioned rods compressing the pier caps that support the upper deck of the North End zone of the Beaver? There was a lot of shear cracking in the concrete piers and Baker remediated the problems. So far so good. I left Baker in around 77', and spent until 85' with Bechtel.
 
Got ya wilbury, thanks. So then, the truss system is not performing as a true truss and the cable stay is contributing to the support of the truss? I'm wondering if a the point of the left pier support, the diagonal (treated as a truss only) is in compression, and the cable which parallels or coincides with the diagonal is in tension?
Just a thought here, but since the cable stay system was not in place yet, I thought temporary vertical(s) supports would have aided to support the unfinished product. There is a known gore area (portion of the road directly under the bridge that has pavement marked out for no traffic) that could have been used to install such a support. This would have taken considerable loading off of the tension rods/cables.
 
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Green, are you talking about the post-tensioned rods compressing the pier caps that support the upper deck of the North End zone of the Beaver? There was a lot of shear cracking in the concrete piers and Baker remediated the problems. So far so good. I left Baker in around 77', and spent until 85' with Bechtel.
Yes I was, I remember them being added after the first season of the deck being used. Saw the same thing later at falling water when they added tensioning rods to Wright's Home to pull the deflection from the floor slabs. I think in that case they actually cut channels, tensioned the rods and repoured concrete to fill the voids But I am not an engineer though I haved poured a ton of concrete, guess I should say yards
 
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at time: 9: 37 seconds during the left end collapse, did anyone see the construction worker suspended in mid air for a couple of nano-seconds as the top chord crashed to the ground?
Yes I saw that I work construction and that was very noticeable to me hope whoever that was Is ok that was crazy. Why was traffic allowed while they were adjusting the bridge that is more crazy. Also did I tell you it's snowing like hell here. I'm near Allentown. Salisbury actually. I guess it's our turn this time
 
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Just a thought here, but since the cable stay system was not in place yet, I thought temporary vertical(s) supports would have aided to support the unfinished product. There is a known gore area (portion of the road directly under the bridge that has pavement marked out for no traffic) that could have been used to install such a support. This would have taken considerable loading off of the tension rods/cables.
Undoubtedly correct. I believe (AvE) discusses the moving of the temporary supports at some point during the video. The moving of the original support locations will redistribute the load forces in the truss members and create uncertainty to the stability of the free standing structure. I think i noticed the other day that a portion of the ends of the truss were placed into a cantilever condition due to the relocation of the temp supports.

The engineers for the construction company said they analyzed the structure's internal forces for the new location of the temp supports. In the final forensic report, i believe you will find several conditions and judgment issues that contribute to the collapse. Equate it to the events that create the "perfect storm".
 
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Yes I was, I remember them being added after the first season of the deck being used. Saw the same thing later at falling water when they added tensioning rods to Wright's Home to pull the deflection from the floor slabs. I think in that case they actually cut channels, tensioned the rods and repoured concrete to fill the voids But I am not an engineer though I haved poured a ton of concrete, guess I should say yards
LOL, I've had several foreman over the years threatened to bury me in those "tons of concrete" you talk about. :rolleyes:
 
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