The Cradle: What happened to it?

[Annieat285]

I was doing some thinking as I was watching the team stomp Wyoming and I realized I can't recall the last time anyone on this team has used, or even tried, a cradle. It's a bit strange given some of the cradle experts that have rolled through here doing Cael's time at the helm.

The answer to all this can be perfectly explained by variance (if you play out enough seasons you'll eventually end up with 10 guys who favor other pinning moves), but it's more fun to speculate. Could it be possible that Cael is ahead of the game and isn't emphasizing the cradle because he realizes some secret reason why it's on the decline?

 

[pish69]

I was doing some thinking as I was watching the team stomp Wyoming and I realized I can't recall the last time anyone on this team has used, or even tried, a cradle. It's a bit strange given some of the cradle experts that have rolled through here doing Cael's time at the helm.

The answer to all this can be perfectly explained by variance (if you play out enough seasons you'll eventually end up with 10 guys who favor other pinning moves), but it's more fun to speculate. Could it be possible that Cael is ahead of the game and isn't emphasizing the cradle because he realizes some secret reason why it's on the decline?

Barr had one or two today

 

[Pennstate1985]

When was the last time we saw a headlock?

 

[nerfstate]

Lilledahl also had a cradle today, but he lost it when trying to go over.

I think one of the things our coaches do best though is cycle through techniques as the years go by. The competition spends time teaching “defending the Penn State cross-face cradle” and our coaches instead are emphasizing the arm bar.

 

[doubleboots]

When was the last time we saw a headlock?

Someone's basement? @johnstownsteel

 

[Sleepylion]

Someone's basement? @johnstownsteel

not @johnstownsteel these guys are wearing pants and shirts.

 

[mcpat]

If you find it, let me know how the cat is doing.

 

[Annieat285]

Lilledahl also had a cradle today, but he lost it when trying to go over.

I think one of the things our coaches do best though is cycle through techniques as the years go by. The competition spends time teaching “defending the Penn State cross-face cradle” and our coaches instead are emphasizing the arm bar.

It feels like they prefer to cater to what wrestlers do well than forcing stuff on them they aren't as familiar with.

 

[mcpat]

Bow and Arrow hurts more.

But yeah… watching Ed and Shakur and their cross face cradles were a thing of beauty.

 

[RandyL]

What about "the claw".
Crusher Lisowski used it to great effect.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

When was the last time we saw a headlock?

You used to see a lot more headlock throws (feet to back).

 

[BigFella235]

My wife robbed the cradle when she married me

 

[Sportfan2017]

I am a bit over 6'3". I stopped using the cradle months ago........the same time I quit thumb-sucking........

 

[El-Jefe]

Just last year, everybody complained about Beau tryng to lock up cradles before securing takedowns.

 

[AgSurfer]

Hardy caught Koderhandt in a nice cradle in their 3rd place match at CKLV. Match was over in 41 seconds

 

[tikk10]

I think maybe because cradles are slightly riskier than what the PSU room has settled on, i.e., variations of the bow and arrow, which can't be slipped. Of course, if you had a cradle as good as Ed Ruth's, you didn't worry about guys slipping it.

 

[mcpat]

Just last year, everybody complained about Beau tryng to lock up cradles before securing takedowns.

Good point.

And he’s too short / his arms are too short for cradles at 141.

 

[Idahopennstatefan]

I think other teams get to defending against certain pinning combinations. Doesn't mean if a cradle is there a kid won't take it. Whe had a kid that would run a crossface series and do it well soon kids would defend it and open up to a half the otherway. Kid wouldn't take the half. Saying he preferred the crossface series. PSU does an excellent job of working through progressions.

 

[Sportfan2017]

I think other teams get to defending against certain pinning combinations. Doesn't mean if a cradle is there a kid won't take it. Whe had a kid that would run a crossface series and do it well soon kids would defend it and open up to a half the otherway. Kid wouldn't take the half. Saying he preferred the crossface series. PSU does an excellent job of working through progressions.

I believe....... to a large extent......that happened to Shak after the Southern Scuffle. They watch film too

 

[creamery freak]

I was doing some thinking as I was watching the team stomp Wyoming and I realized I can't recall the last time anyone on this team has used, or even tried, a cradle. It's a bit strange given some of the cradle experts that have rolled through here doing Cael's time at the helm.

The answer to all this can be perfectly explained by variance (if you play out enough seasons you'll eventually end up with 10 guys who favor other pinning moves), but it's more fun to speculate. Could it be possible that Cael is ahead of the game and isn't emphasizing the cradle because he realizes some secret reason why it's on the decline?

It left with Ruth & Taylor and our four Nattys!

 

[mhlarch]

Interesting observation, but I think it is still part of the PSU arsenal, maybe just not used as frequently.

 

[nerfstate]

Of course they'll encourage guys to use their best moves, etc--but you can't tell me they haven't been working arm bars a ton in that room the last couple of years. Everyone tries one, usually several every match. B&A is another one of course. It seems like once upon a time, only Zain could actually get falls from it--now it seems like many can do that too.

 

[RB-Old]

Unless you're a stringbean its tough to lock up a cradle and not put yourself at risk against top-level guys. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but working bars gives you more control.

 

[FatWoodchuck]

Unless you're a stringbean its tough to lock up a cradle and not put yourself at risk against top-level guys. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but working bars gives you more control.

Yes, a cradle to me is force if you have to but it is more of a caught you move to me because like said here, forcing a cradle on better guys is risky business. A lot of times forcing a cradle on some one gives them the position to reverse you and put you on your back.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

The cradle is classic, but Zain proved the bow and arrow adds a proper amount of agony to the mix. I kind of like that it is clearly catching on in our room.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Yes, a cradle to me is force if you have to but it is more of a caught you move to me because like said here, forcing a cradle on better guys is risky business. A lot of times forcing a cradle on some one gives them the position to reverse you and put you on your back.

I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. As someone who lived off a cross-face cradle from middle school through college, there is no risky business here if you know what you're doing. I don't ever recall Ed Ruth getting reversed or put on his back while trying to secure a cradle. DT either. And in general, you don't 'force' any move on someone who is good. You go with what opportunities present themselves.

One thing that I think has impacted the use of the cross-face cradle is the change in rule where it is considered stalling to sweep an ankle while riding. Many cradlers sweep an ankle to encourage their opponent to bring their other leg/knee up while trying to escape. This makes it a lot easier to lock up a cross-face/far-side cradle as their far knee is closer to their head.

 

[hlstone]

I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. As someone who lived off a cross-face cradle from middle school through college, there is no risky business here if you know what you're doing. I don't ever recall Ed Ruth getting reversed or put on his back while trying to secure a cradle. DT either. And in general, you don't 'force' any move on someone who is good. You go with what opportunities present themselves.

One thing that I think has impacted the use of the cross-face cradle is the change in rule where it is considered stalling to sweep an ankle while riding. Many cradlers sweep an ankle to encourage their opponent to bring their other leg/knee up while trying to escape. This makes it a lot easier to lock up a cross-face/far-side cradle as their far knee is closer to their head.

That's how I did the cross-face as well.

 

[82bordeaux]

I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. As someone who lived off a cross-face cradle from middle school through college, there is no risky business here if you know what you're doing. I don't ever recall Ed Ruth getting reversed or put on his back while trying to secure a cradle. DT either. And in general, you don't 'force' any move on someone who is good. You go with what opportunities present themselves.

One thing that I think has impacted the use of the cross-face cradle is the change in rule where it is considered stalling to sweep an ankle while riding. Many cradlers sweep an ankle to encourage their opponent to bring their other leg/knee up while trying to escape. This makes it a lot easier to lock up a cross-face/far-side cradle as their far knee is closer to their head.

You beat me to it. I was going to comment that @PSUAllTheWay was pretty damn proficient and locking up the cross-face cradle.
When we went at it keeping my head up was job #1.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

RBY had a pretty solid one

 

[FatWoodchuck]

I'm sorry but this just isn't accurate. As someone who lived off a cross-face cradle from middle school through college, there is no risky business here if you know what you're doing. I don't ever recall Ed Ruth getting reversed or put on his back while trying to secure a cradle. DT either. And in general, you don't 'force' any move on someone who is good. You go with what opportunities present themselves.

One thing that I think has impacted the use of the cross-face cradle is the change in rule where it is considered stalling to sweep an ankle while riding. Many cradlers sweep an ankle to encourage their opponent to bring their other leg/knee up while trying to escape. This makes it a lot easier to lock up a cross-face/far-side cradle as their far knee is closer to their head.

Is this also why the half Nelson is basically non existant?

I'd argue the point that it's been around for so long and wrestling has jumped so many levels that the defense to these moves has been almost perfected by the majority of better wrestlers and time makes these moves a little more obsolete.

 

[El-Jefe]

RBY had a pretty solid one

Tap if you agree.

 

[AgSurfer]

One thing that I think has impacted the use of the cross-face cradle is the change in rule where it is considered stalling to sweep an ankle while riding.

OK - here is something that I was not aware of. By sweeping the ankle, do you mean reaching down with one hand and gripping the ankle and foot by the instep to pull up on the leg? In the past, that was always one standard way of taking your opponent off of his base.

 

[hlstone]

OK - here is something that I was not aware of. By sweeping the ankle, do you mean reaching down with one hand and gripping the ankle and foot by the instep to pull up on the leg? In the past, that was always one standard way of taking your opponent off of his base.

No, it's more like trapping the ankle with the back of your knee and circling with it towards the outside.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Is this also why the half Nelson is basically non existant?

I'd argue the point that it's been around for so long and wrestling has jumped so many levels that the defense to these moves has been almost perfected by the majority of better wrestlers and time makes these moves a little more obsolete.

This is the big thing. Guys at the college/D1 level don’t bring their head near their knee and if they do it doesn’t stay there long.

Guys like Ed and Shak and even Bo/RBY could do it because their arms were so damn long they could get a lock from all sorts of unconventional positions.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

Missing the obvious. The cradle is a pinning move and with the three point takedown there's a much greater likelihood of tech falls.

Changing the value of a takedown didn't just emphasize takedowns, it reduced the relative value of all other scoring and made MDs and Techs more attainable. I wish the rules would have raised the MD requirement to 10 and the TF to 18 to preserve the difficulty of those decisions and maintained the value of the pin.

And for a guy like Mesenbrink, he never gets to work on pinning in matches, because you blink and suddenly he has seven or eight takedowns on a guy.

If I wanted catch and release, I'd go fishing for trout in the Susquehanna,

 

[Nitlion1986]

Missing the obvious. The cradle is a pinning move and with the three point takedown there's a much greater likelihood of tech falls.

Changing the value of a takedown didn't just emphasize takedowns, it reduced the relative value of all other scoring and made MDs and Techs more attainable. I wish the rules would have raised the MD requirement to 10 and the TF to 18 to preserve the difficulty of those decisions and maintained the value of the pin.

And for a guy like Mesenbrink, he never gets to work on pinning in matches, because you blink and suddenly he has seven or eight takedowns on a guy.

If I wanted catch and release, I'd go fishing for trout in the Susquehanna,

I would prefer if the TD went back to 2. If necessary keep the 2 for a reversal but get rid of the 1 point escape.

 

[82bordeaux]

Is this also why the half Nelson is basically non existant?

You missing Gene Mills?

 

[District four]

I think maybe because cradles are slightly riskier than what the PSU room has settled on, i.e., variations of the bow and arrow, which can't be slipped. Of course, if you had a cradle as good as Ed Ruth's, you didn't worry about guys slipping it.

I loved Q's cradle both were really good with locking that up

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

This is the big thing. Guys at the college/D1 level don’t bring their head near their knee and if they do it doesn’t stay there long.

Guys like Ed and Shak and even Bo/RBY could do it because their arms were so damn long they could get a lock from all sorts of unconventional positions.

The beauty of the cross-face cradle is that if you do it right, it takes the head to the knee. You can't say the same thing for a far-side cradle, which is why I always preferred the cross-face cradle. Also if your opponent kicks free you have more control over them with a cross-face cradle than a far-side cradle. But now we are just geeking out on cradles ...

 

[mhlarch]

Missing the obvious. The cradle is a pinning move and with the three point takedown there's a much greater likelihood of tech falls.

Changing the value of a takedown didn't just emphasize takedowns, it reduced the relative value of all other scoring and made MDs and Techs more attainable. I wish the rules would have raised the MD requirement to 10 and the TF to 18 to preserve the difficulty of those decisions and maintained the value of the pin.

And for a guy like Mesenbrink, he never gets to work on pinning in matches, because you blink and suddenly he has seven or eight takedowns on a guy.

If I wanted catch and release, I'd go fishing for trout in the Susquehanna,

Yes....this is it! The ultimate goal in wrestling should be to pin. Many of these rule changes have disincentivized the fall. I don't like when our guys wrestle lesser opponents and play TD and release to get the tech. There is a time for this when an opponent is clamming up, but when they are playing catch and release in the first period, I don't care for it.

I'm okay with the 3 point TD but as Pitchfork Rebel wrote, you have to up the MD and TF requirements to compensate.