The future of higher education

[PS4814]

The more conservative schools will survive. Liberals have no clue when it comes time to cut spending or tighten their belt buckles.

The fact that blue states pay more in federal taxes than they receive in federal spending, as opposed to red states such as South Carolina which takes $4 from federal spending for every $1 its citizens pay, can be viewed as an example of liberals subsidizing conservatives and kind of kills your argument that somehow conservatives are better at financial management.

Could also look at the failed state of Kansas to see how that conservative fantasy land of tax cuts is working out.

http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article69776282.html
The ranking for government was based on financial stability, budget transparency, government digitalization and state integrity. Kansas, which has suffered from budget shortfalls for the last 21/2 years, was ranked 48th when all these factors were weighed.

http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article135404769.html
Kansas has the third-worst government of all 50 states, according to new rankings from U.S. News & World Report.

 

[j.reacher]

Of course there will always be a need for intelligent, capable young people.
When it is working properly, that is a function that "Higher Education" serves.

That's a given, and not really at issue (I wouldn't think).


Let me tell ya' a little story, that illustrates a point:

50-100 years ago, US Steel was one of the most powerful and important (if not the most important) industrial concerns in the entire World.

Today, US Steel isn't even a member of the US S&P 500 - it isn't even considered a "Large Cap" company anymore (BTW, a tip of the cap to former PSU BOT Chairman John Surma , but that's a whole 'nuther story )

What happened? Was there no longer a demand for the product that US Steel produced?

[HINT: Worldwide steel demand is 4-5 times higher today than it was back in the heyday of US Steel.]

View embedded media

Can you name ANY US steel manufacturer that can compete with $1/day labor? When nobody can compete your US Steel argument goes down the toilet. Are you a professor? Why don't you start a steel company and show Surma how it is done?

US Steel became what is is today because it was used as a whore.
Used as a whore, for decades, by a plethora of individuals and groups who were more concerned about "getting theirs" than they were about working to keep US Steel in its leadership position....
more concerned about lining their own pockets than they were is preserving this iconic company to serve the best interests of the nation for future generations.
(One could - and many have - written volumes on these activities. No need to cover them all again here)

View embedded media

You forgot the part about one of the whores was the organized labor. Their goal was to get theirs(your words).



PS. Let us know when college profs are willing to take pay cuts for the greater good.

 

[j.reacher]

The fact that blue states pay more in federal taxes than they receive in federal spending, as opposed to red states such as South Carolina which takes $4 from federal spending for every $1 its citizens pay, can be viewed as an example of liberals subsidizing conservatives and kind of kills your argument that somehow conservatives are better at financial management.

Could also look at the failed state of Kansas to see how that conservative fantasy land of tax cuts is working out.

Are you under the impression that states are 100% blue or red?
Who is paying the taxes? Who do you think pays the taxes in NYC? Wall STreet? Capitalism works well for people that work and care about education. Who is receiving the welfare?

Your premise goes down the toilet once you admit that WAll Street capitalists are subsidizing the South Carolina socialists.

Do you support welfare or not? Do you want to cut welfare or will you flip on the issue? Liberals are great at flipping once they realize they will have to pay more or receive less.

 

[j.reacher]

Liberals solution for the higher education will be for someone else to pay. That is their solution for all their problems. They will ignore costs. They will ignore ridiculous expansion projects and profs making HIGH 6 figures who have million dollar vacation homes. They will ignore the fact that many of the students taking BS liberal arts majors can't even find jobs. The American Dream is not to work at Mcdonalds for higher minimum.

 

[PS4814]

Are you under the impression that states are 100% blue or red?
Who is paying the taxes? Who do you think pays the taxes in NYC? Wall STreet? Capitalism works well for people that work and care about education. Who is receiving the welfare?

Your premise goes down the toilet once you admit that WAll Street capitalists are subsidizing the South Carolina socialists.

Wait - so the South Carolina republican lawmakers are socialists? I'm guessing that's news to them.

Keep on reaching reacher. It's been fun but you're too rabid for any actual discussion.

 

[j.reacher]

Wait - so the South Carolina republican lawmakers are socialists? I'm guessing that's news to them.

Keep on reaching reacher. It's been fun but you're too rabid for any actual discussion.

South Carolina laws don't take money from BLUE states as you implied.

Why didn't you answer my questions? Who is paying the taxes in NYC?

Are you under the impression that states are 100% red or blue?

 

[j.reacher]

WTH?

Who said the problems w US Steel were solely a "Management Issue"? Not I.

Hell, I saw plenty of examples of "Organized Labor" greed and sloth with my own eyes..... there were LOTS of entities taking part.


If you want to spew your political R/D nonsense, please do it in some other direction - engaging some poor soul who gives a damn about that "debate".
TIA.

Who were you referencing when you said, "And, just like with US Steel:

While the demand for the "product" is almost certain to remain strong (or even grow greater), the ability of an organization to prosper (or even survive) - when it is "led" by self-serving, near-sighted, petty fools - in a changing, competitive market, is not promising."

PS. The demand for bricks and mortar colleges is probably not increasing just like the demand steel produced by $100/hr labor was not increasing.

 

[Langmuir]

Liberals solution for the higher education will be for someone else to pay. That is their solution for all their problems. They will ignore costs. They will ignore ridiculous expansion projects and profs making HIGH 6 figures who have million dollar vacation homes. They will ignore the fact that many of the students taking BS liberal arts majors can't even find jobs. The American Dream is not to work at Mcdonalds for higher minimum.

I am not sure who these professors are with million dollar vacation homes. I spent a long time in academia. I visited many professors homes. They were all very nice but not extravagant. Most of them worked 60-80 hours/week. They have a very high divorce rate from what I observed. It is well known, if you want to make money or have a life outside of work, you work for industry not academia. I chose to go to work in industry since I didn't want that kind of life.

 

[j.reacher]

I am not sure who these professors are with million dollar vacation homes. I spent a long time in academia. I visited many professors homes. They were all very nice but not extravagant. Most of them worked 60-80 hours/week. They have a very high divorce rate from what I observed. It is well known, if you want to make money or have a life outside of work, you work for industry not academia. I chose to go to work in industry since I didn't want that kind of life.

Just about any professor with a house at the Jersey Shore. The average house in Avalon sold for about $1.7 million a few years ago. Elisabeth Warren lives in a $7 million home. She claims to represent the middle class.

 

[Langmuir]

My professors at Penn State certainly didn't work 60-80 hours per week for the University because many of them had consulting jobs. There were many weeks they didn't show in class, but rather classes were taught by TA's or Grad Assistants.

If they had a high divorce rate, it was likely attributed to their active social life.

I was at an ivy league school. Maybe that was difference. It was not unusual for me to see them there 9 or 10 PM working on grant proposals or writing papers. Maybe when your professors where not there, they were attending a conference which if they are to stay at the top of their field, they need to do.

 

[novaclassof90]

I don't think it is going to be the small state schools that will hurt the most. Still a need for relatively inexpensive alternatives like Shipp, West Chester, etc. Though PA's issue is they have too many of them. Given PSU and all its branches, no need for 14 state universities. I think you will see Cheyney, and 3-4 others like Mansfield, Lock Haven, or California (PA) go by the wayside.

Biggest loser is the small, 2nd/3rd tier private schools like St. Joe's, LaSalle, Susquehanna, Lebanon Valley type places. These small private schools are very expensive and you just don't get an education that is better than a state school. Traditional top tier private schools will survive, but the 2nd tier is in trouble. If you have a pulse, you can get into a place like LaSalle right now.

 

[stater02]

As someone who is in the middle of obtaining his MBA, I think about this often. One of our professors recently told us that half of all US universities will be closed due to bankruptcy in 10 years. That "stat" sounds like it was pulled from thin air, but I am not sure that it's far off, and it can happen very easily. Here's how I envision it happening:

Jeff Bezos formally creates Amazon University. He pulls the best and brightest teachers away from prestigious learning institutions by offering them 5-8x what they are making today to conduct live and recorded online education sessions. Students are drawn by the cost (which will be lower than current market due to headcount aggregation), accessibility, and the opportunity to be taught by the best instructors from world-class institutions that were formerly inaccessible to them (ie, a student at Pitt that really wanted to go to MIT but couldn't get in...sorry, I couldn't help myself). Sure, the camaraderie of a cohort and the experience of college is practically non-existent, but as Millenials and Generation Z have shown us, not only do they have a different value system, but they live more and more of their life online. Plus, technological developments like augmented reality will eventually be able to simulate the classroom environment pretty well.

This will draw students away from traditional colleges and universities, and that lack of income will quickly put them into a irreversible death spiral toward bankruptcy. Those colleges that survive will be the ones that have seen this coming and are working NOW to offer a similar product; one that goes beyond the current online experience. In business, everything is commoditized in a race to the bottom, and higher education is a business. Nothing is immune to disruption.

Some other poster commented TIC about how the university landscape will become development property or condos - I don't think that's far off. My condo in Chicago is in an old pencil factory. I'm sure those workers couldn't envision a day when someone wouldn't need a pencil to document important things. Nearly every brewery or restaurant that I go to is in the building of some failed or antiquated business. If you choose to stick your head in the sand and believe that most of the higher education system will not change, you are a fool. It will start here, and work its way down. Change is coming, sooner than we all think.

 

[Nitt1300]

I see the Harvards and MITs of the world surviving because of who they are and who supports them, and maybe some of the real high end private schools (Williams, Smith, etc) also because of fat endowments and rich alumni. After that, my guess is the future is with community colleges and on-line programs.

 

[Nitwit]

Just about any professor with a house at the Jersey Shore. The average house in Avalon sold for about $1.7 million a few years ago. Elisabeth Warren lives in a $7 million home. She claims to represent the middle class.

Avalon is the most expensive town along the shore. Sea Isle, Wildwood, OC are much less expensive.

 

[Nitwit]

Can you name ANY US steel manufacturer that can compete with $1/day labor? When nobody can compete your US Steel argument goes down the toilet. Are you a professor? Why don't you start a steel company and show Surma how it is done?






You forgot the part about one of the whores was the organized labor. Their goal was to get theirs(your words).



PS. Let us know when college profs are willing to take pay cuts for the greater good.

I agee. The steel companies and many other manufacturers (shoes, apparel, etc) were put out of business due to cheap imports from China. In the 1070s US coal was exported to China who produced the steel and under cut the American steel companies, even with all these shipping costs, because of their cheap labor and lack of environmental regulations. Any comparison to our education system is simply bogus.

 

[Nitwit]

I see the Harvards and MITs of the world surviving because of who they are and who supports them, and maybe some of the real high end private schools (Williams, Smith, etc) also because of fat endowments and rich alumni. After that, my guess is the future is with community colleges and on-line programs.

Good public universities will continue to survive because they are partially supported by public funds and they provide a financially attractive alternative to private colleges which are outrageously expensive. It’s the mediocre private colleges which are feeling the pinch. The higher end private schools will do OK (Ivy league, Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, etc. as examples).

There are a lot of wealthy people who are paying private high school tuitions which are upwards of $30,000 - $40,000 per year, some with several children - see Hun, Lawrenceville Prep, the George School as examples. They do this so their kids will get into the top private colleges and can afford it. Even the Catholic high schools like St Joe Prep in Philly have gotten pretty expensive - $24k per year. The fact is - some people can afford it and it’s worth it to them.

 

[uhlerlion]

Are you under the impression that states are 100% blue or red?
Who is paying the taxes? Who do you think pays the taxes in NYC? Wall STreet? Capitalism works well for people that work and care about education. Who is receiving the welfare?

Your premise goes down the toilet once you admit that WAll Street capitalists are subsidizing the South Carolina socialists.

Do you support welfare or not? Do you want to cut welfare or will you flip on the issue? Liberals are great at flipping once they realize they will have to pay more or receive less.

Broad brush boy tries to explain broad brush?? Keep on the test board if you gonna go there cochise

 

[uhlerlion]

Just about any professor with a house at the Jersey Shore. The average house in Avalon sold for about $1.7 million a few years ago. Elisabeth Warren lives in a $7 million home. She claims to represent the middle class.

now selective reasoning ..hmmm not a 'bright one' here methinks

 

[JayWye]

How do you see the future? I wonder how (and honestly-why) brick and mortar institutions survive long term. With the availability of more and more on-line options, especially for bachelors degrees, will students still be willing (and able) to take on the debt for attending a traditional 4 year college? Would you?

I'm certainly no expert on university administration, but it looks to me like major changes are coming- and sooner than I would have thought just a few years ago. What do you think?

The thought that on-line courses (e.g. PSU's World Campus) would supplant colleges/universities has been around for several decades, and yet PSU app's are higher than ever. Thre's much more to the college experience than taking courses. As others point out, however, some of the private, pricey liberal arts institutions could be in trouble. OTOH, publicly supported second/third tier schools (e.g. PSU's network of teachers colleges turned "universities") have political constituencies. So...changes in the public arena will likely involve (but not necessarily be limited to) reducing admin overhead (long overdue), and eliminating general funds allocations for "varsity" sports that can't support themselves. The rub with the latter is Title IX requirements. Turning non-revenue men's sports (baseball, etc.) into some variety of club sports could be accomplished with much less hoorah.

 

[TCFA-Nit]

I'm a longtime veteran of the industry, having worked at three different universities. Prior to that I covered higher ed as a reporter. Some thoughts:

1. No, online courses will not replace brick-and-mortar institutions. Online has its place, of course. They allow students to pick up quick credits and take some courses at off hours, but at the end of the day, going to college is actually still about "going" to college. The campus experience is still something the vast majority of students want.
2. The big public schools and rich private schools aren't going anywhere. There is huge demand for their product -- just look at the admit rates for some of these places -- and they have endowments substantial enough to support themselves well into the future. Most also have strong cultures of philanthropy. Alumni are loyal and want to give back.
3. Smaller private schools are definitely facing challenges and we're already seeing this happen. Mergers and closures are starting to happen. We will see more. They need tuition dollars for revenue and don't have the ability to offer the kind of financial aid that might keep enrollments up. The endowments aren't there, either.
4. Tuition is obviously an issue and it's not something that the powers-that-be in the industry are blind to. The issue is what to do about it. For each school, the answer is different. But fundraising specifically for financial aid is the clearest path forward. The money is then given back, with the majority of students at these schools not paying anywhere near full price.
5. Again, the issue gets trickier for those schools who don't have that kind of money to hand out. Some schools have had success in lowering tuition, etc. but in some sense it's a wash especially if the lower tuition rates are paired with lower aid rates.
6. Though there is often a knee-jerk reaction among some to say that certain 'liberal arts' majors have no value, as others on this thread have stated, there remains enormous value in learning how to think. These departments aren't going anywhere, either.
7. That being said, universities aren't blind. They see the need to provide ROI and I think you're seeing a lot of initiatives and investments geared specifically to 'growth sectors' in the economy -- health care, tech, energy, etc.
8. Also, it's important to remember that most of our leading universities also are major engines of research. This work is absolutely essential and keeps the U.S. at the forefront of global innovation. Some of this work literally cannot be done in any other context, so their continued existence is absolutely essential for our society and economy.

 

[j.reacher]

I was at an ivy league school. Maybe that was difference. It was not unusual for me to see them there 9 or 10 PM working on grant proposals or writing papers. Maybe when your professors where not there, they were attending a conference which if they are to stay at the top of their field, they need to do.

HOW does that benefit the student who is paying 50k a year?

Profs are more concerned with lining their pockets, writing lame books, and doing research to line their pockets than are with teaching the students skills.

 

[LionJim]

HOW does that benefit the student who is paying 50k a year?

Profs are more concerned with lining their pockets, writing lame books, and doing research to line their pockets than are with teaching the students skills.

Okay, college professors are greedy sonsofbitches who don't give a shit for either their students or their students' futures. Got it.

 

[BiochemPSU]

No way these high end brick and mortar schools disappear in any of our lifetimes. You should see the competition and cost for brick and mortar pre-K in my neck of the woods. It only gets worse by the time brick and mortar HS comes around. You think these same parents will suddenly go for a cheap on-line, regional community college after paying for everything that lead up to it? No chance in Hades. College is still seen as the formative adult experience in the U.S. and the best shot at reaching a real living wage job. Everyone will continue to play that game until the robots take over.

 

[Langmuir]

HOW does that benefit the student who is paying 50k a year?

Profs are more concerned with lining their pockets, writing lame books, and doing research to line their pockets than are with teaching the students skills.

Many students want to be taught by the top researchers in their field. Obviously not a priority for you.

I am curious why you don't become a professor. Apparently you think it is an easy job that makes a ton of money. I had a choice to go that route but I saw firsthand what kind of life many of them had.

 

[j.reacher]

Many students want to be taught by the top researchers in their field. Obviously not a priority for you.

I am curious why you don't become a professor. Apparently you think it is an easy job that makes a ton of money. I had a choice to go that route but I saw firsthand what kind of life many of them had.

I could say the same. Why don't the professors all go into business? The professors all think running a business is an easy way to get rich. They can show all the greedy corporations the proper way to run a business.

 

[j.reacher]

Okay, college professors are greedy sonsofbitches who don't give a shit for either their students or their students' futures. Got it.

Correct. Profs love to complain about greed. Why is their greed ok? They love to say they represent the middle class and care about education. Let me know when ANY of them offer to make a sacrifice that helps the middle class and lowers the cost of education.

 

[Langmuir]

I could say the same. Why don't the professors all go into business? The professors all think running a business is an easy way to get rich. They can show all the greedy corporations the proper way to run a business.

I think I just said that I did. I am probably making 50% more and also get to see my kids grow up.

 

[Nitwit]

It would take a true nit-wit to consider US Steel and Penn State to be similar entities.
Or to think that any attempt was being made to equate the two.

It would take an even bigger nit-wit to miss the point that WAS being made - a comparison of the "whoring out" of two entities by those folks who are supposed to be shepherding and protecting it.

Unfortunately, we have well-educated nit-wits, in abundance. And somewhere, a village is one short.

You made the comparison. Not me. But US steel was not going to be saved by its leadership nor were any of the thousands of well run companies who were put out of business by unfair trade practices. Now why don’t you just try to stick to higher education instead of venturing into other areas you know nothing about?

 

[Howie'81]

How do you see the future? I wonder how (and honestly-why) brick and mortar institutions survive long term. With the availability of more and more on-line options, especially for bachelors degrees, will students still be willing (and able) to take on the debt for attending a traditional 4 year college? Would you?

I'm certainly no expert on university administration, but it looks to me like major changes are coming- and sooner than I would have thought just a few years ago. What do you think?

I hear you, but don't you think that in an institution of higher learning that there should be honest to goodness face to face people interaction and exchange of ideas? Internet doesn't work well for that. Just look at how we all yell at each other online.

 

[Nitwit]

Barry, you should really withdraw your name from the BOT ballot. Your stupidity as displayed by your superficial rants and personal attacks is a constant embarrassment. We need leaders not thorns.

 

[Nitt1300]

I hear you, but don't you think that in an institution of higher learning that there should be honest to goodness face to face people interaction and exchange of ideas? Internet doesn't work well for that. Just look at how we all yell at each other online.

I'm not advocating - just predicting. I loved my college experience and yes, there will be valuable things lost if I'm right about the future. But I really thing college has been oversold, and the idea that you need a BA (especially a conventionally earned BA) to be assistant manager at a fast food joint is going to go away- IMO. I just think that for an increasing number of students the costs of the current system outweigh the benefits.

 

[j.reacher]

I hear you, but don't you think that in an institution of higher learning that there should be honest to goodness face to face people interaction and exchange of ideas? Internet doesn't work well for that. Just look at how we all yell at each other online.

Do we need to pay a part time prof 400k for that face to face interaction?

 

[Richard the LIONhearted]

I'm a longtime veteran of the industry, having worked at three different universities. Prior to that I covered higher ed as a reporter. Some thoughts:

1. No, online courses will not replace brick-and-mortar institutions. Online has its place, of course. They allow students to pick up quick credits and take some courses at off hours, but at the end of the day, going to college is actually still about "going" to college. The campus experience is still something the vast majority of students want.
2. The big public schools and rich private schools aren't going anywhere. There is huge demand for their product -- just look at the admit rates for some of these places -- and they have endowments substantial enough to support themselves well into the future. Most also have strong cultures of philanthropy. Alumni are loyal and want to give back.
3. Smaller private schools are definitely facing challenges and we're already seeing this happen. Mergers and closures are starting to happen. We will see more. They need tuition dollars for revenue and don't have the ability to offer the kind of financial aid that might keep enrollments up. The endowments aren't there, either.
4. Tuition is obviously an issue and it's not something that the powers-that-be in the industry are blind to. The issue is what to do about it. For each school, the answer is different. But fundraising specifically for financial aid is the clearest path forward. The money is then given back, with the majority of students at these schools not paying anywhere near full price.
5. Again, the issue gets trickier for those schools who don't have that kind of money to hand out. Some schools have had success in lowering tuition, etc. but in some sense it's a wash especially if the lower tuition rates are paired with lower aid rates.
6. Though there is often a knee-jerk reaction among some to say that certain 'liberal arts' majors have no value, as others on this thread have stated, there remains enormous value in learning how to think. These departments aren't going anywhere, either.
7. That being said, universities aren't blind. They see the need to provide ROI and I think you're seeing a lot of initiatives and investments geared specifically to 'growth sectors' in the economy -- health care, tech, energy, etc.
8. Also, it's important to remember that most of our leading universities also are major engines of research. This work is absolutely essential and keeps the U.S. at the forefront of global innovation. Some of this work literally cannot be done in any other context, so their continued existence is absolutely essential for our society and economy.

Freaking awesome summary. Thanks.

 

[Howie'81]

Do we need to pay a part time prof 400k for that face to face interaction?

No.

 

[Evan Ceg]

A homage to the land grant university.

 

[Nitt1300]

South Carolina laws don't take money from BLUE states as you implied.

Why didn't you answer my questions? Who is paying the taxes in NYC?

Are you under the impression that states are 100% red or blue?

thanks for dragging politics into a non political discussion, only an a-hole does that.