Seriously? I'm 74 and have been a huge PGA golf fan my whole life and have to admit that the talent level on the PGA Tour is - by far - the best it's ever been with all of the high quality International players now on the Tour. It's just a lot harder to win on today's PGA Tour than it was in Nicklaus and Tiger's days. Because of that, their records will never be broken and that's not taking anything away from the old timers - just a lot harder game today
Tiger ruptured Achilles tendon
- Thread starter The Spin Meister
- Start date
Jack's record will be very, very tough to break but it can be broken. There can be another generational player that comes along and if he has the mental fortitude that goes beyond the other elite players then he could do it.
Winning majors certainly requires a tremendous amount of physical talent but also requires a tremendous amount of mental discipline and toughness that not everyone has at least not to the level of Jack or Tiger. Look at Phil. It took him a long time to get that first major. He was never going to get to 18 but if he was better mentally in the clutch he could have 10 or 12 majors. He had a couple meltdowns in U.S. Opens if not more. Remember the 2006 U.S. Open where he doubles the 72nd hole to lose by one. McIlroy last year at the U.S. Open on Sunday I think is another example. There are many examples of really good players just not being able to handle the pressure of a major on Sunday. Norman, another one, never won the Masters.
A 4-ft putt that amazed one of the greatest golfers of all time. Compare his putt to that of Rory McIlroy on the last green of the US Open. Very interesting to be aware that McElroy had not missed a putt inside 5 ft the whole year until the last round of the US Open last year.
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I appreciate that, but a good golfer makes that put 9 times out of ten. Russell Henley made that putt last weekend on the 72nd hole to win the Arnold Palmer Bayhill Classic.
This board is always amazing though. I have nothing but complete respect for Jack as a person and a player. I simply said in their primes, if I had to bet on one, it would be Tiger. That takes nothing away from Jack. He had the greatest career by a wide margin.
A sliding, downhill putt on the 71st or 72nd hole at a major is a different animal. Can/will guys make it? Of course but there is a lot of pressure. McIlroy, Norman and others come to mind as not getting it done in the clutch and they are/were better than Russell Henley.
You bet on Tiger over Jack. That is fine. You also said Jack didn't have many "magical" shots and Tiger apparently had many more. I find this comment odd and then we get into this 4 foot putt discussion because people are bringing up what they think are magical or at least clutch shots that Jack made and you start minimizing that shot like any random pro could make it. So you are surprised that the board is defending Jack on your assertion of Tiger having many more magical shots? That's an opinion that certainly can be challenged especially when Jack won four more majors.
Fair enough. But I can say, in my mind, I expect players to make those four foot putts and most do.
Now, as I compare that to Tiger hitting a fade around a tree with a 2 iron to within ten feet or Jack stuffing a 198 foot par three on the ocean in the wind.
I was watching golf channel and they often have such discussions. The consensus is that Jack was the second best player of all time but, by far, the best at managing himself and his life throughout his career. Tiger on the other hand, was defending champ of all four majors (the tiger slam).
It's just hard - for me - to claim any player the GOAT in any sport because of the different competition- different eras they played in. Jack, Tiger, Babe Ruth, LeBron, Jordan, Jim Brown etc.......I'd take any of them
I think just about everyone agrees especially in terms of the technology behind golf and more generally, the understanding of sports preparation and medicine. But that doesn't give us much to talk about. As I said in a previous post, it is a 51%/49% decision.
I agree that it is hard to compare across different eras, but I don't know about Tiger having better competition than Jack. I think Jack had to contend with more mentally tough players than Tiger did. Jack's rivals for majors included Arnie, Gary Player, Hale Irwin, Lee Trevino, Seve Ballesteros, Raymond Floyd, Tom Watson, etc. All of those guys were great competitors. Much of Tiger's competition was intimidated by Tiger and tended to fold in big spots.
I think Tiger held a bigger mental edge over his competition than Jack had over his competition, while Tiger's great mental toughness would have fit in quite well back in Jack's era. I think Tiger would have thrived playing back in the 60's and 70's, while someone like Phil Mickleson might not have fared as well in that era.
It is a great debate to have, that's for sure.
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You guys keep ignoring the most critical asset in being GOAT……how to handle great success. Brady never lost focus, worked just as hard. Made his teammates work hard.
Palmer and Nickolas had long careers and were always highly ranked. They worked at the game and stayed focused.
Tiger had the greatest run but success, fame and great fortune destroyed him. He got into drugs, crazy women, crazy lifestyle.
Jack and Arnold played when there was far less fame and fortune, far less tv/magazine /no ESPN24/7 No internet. While they made good money and became household names Tiger faces far more of that intoxicating mix.
Tiger failed to handle great success. Got in his head. That failure of the most critical aspect means he is not ghe GOAT.
Palmer and Nickolas had long careers and were always highly ranked. They worked at the game and stayed focused.
Tiger had the greatest run but success, fame and great fortune destroyed him. He got into drugs, crazy women, crazy lifestyle.
Jack and Arnold played when there was far less fame and fortune, far less tv/magazine /no ESPN24/7 No internet. While they made good money and became household names Tiger faces far more of that intoxicating mix.
Tiger failed to handle great success. Got in his head. That failure of the most critical aspect means he is not ghe GOAT.
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difference between tiger and those other you mention all he ever did in life since he was walking was play golf. He had no child hood. Those others had normalcy in their lives growing up
There is another big difference because he was the first black superstar in golf. That had to come with tremendous pressures.
Enough racism still persists that he had to be subjected to some abuse. And I am sure he felt pressure to be a quality flag bearer.
That’s a major burden on top of the the intoxication of great fame and fortune. Wonder how much that contributed.
Good point on Jack's competition being mentally tougher than Tiger's. Look at Phil to Tiger. No comparison on mental toughness and Phil was arguably Tiger's biggest rival. If there was a 4 footer to win the U.S. Open you almost could guarantee Tiger would make it. With Phil you almost could guarantee he would miss it.
It has been brought up in this thread about Jack's dominance in long driving and just his sheer power advantage over his competition. I don't think Tiger had that advantage as he got into his late 20s and some younger guys emerged. So Tiger did I think have to contend with guys who were more powerful than what Jack had to contend with. I will say though that both of them were the best ever shot makers and clutch putters.
That had to be a burden. I think Tiger just let fame and fortune get to him with so many people telling him how great he was and probably how unbeatable he was. It led to this intoxication that nothing could bring him down and you see what happened with his personal life.
This is a great point. It is like he woke up one day and discovered women and partying and was like "Wow, look what I have been missing, give me more!". Then he also was hanging around MJ and Barkley and that didn't go well for him.
No excuse. But if you think Tiger is the only player, hell golfer, taking part in these activities you would be quite mistaken.
I am told that the NBA vowed to NEVER have the all-star game in LV again after having to cover up a lot of chicanery. I am also told that despite Vegas being a primo location for a struggling franchise, the NBA has discouraged it for many years due to the problems it would produce for the league's image.
There were a number of golfers through the years who described as "ladies men," and no shortage of stories of famous golfers being caught with women who were not their wives. Greg Norman may be in a class of his own in the womanizing department. There was also never a shortage of stories of guys who showed up to play hung over or still drunk. The press covered them much in the same way the press covered Babe Ruth - boys will be boys... None of that excuses Tiger, and while Jack was about as clean as they come, Tiger was most assuredly not the first top player with a badly flawed personal life.
I am reminded of the story that Charles Barkley tells about a time when Tiger was young. he was hanging with Tiger and MJ at a club in Vegas. At the time, Tiger was very shy and introverted by exploding as a PGA champion. Tiger was taken by a young lady who was also giving him the eye. MJ was trying to encourage Tiger to go talk to her. Tiger says to Jordan something like "I don't know, what do I say to her?" MJ looks at Tiger and says "You tell her that you are Tiger ****ing Woods, that is what you say."
