TOM's 5 most valuable wrestlers for 2017
- Thread starter El-Jefe
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Just that one-two punch puts PSU in the favorites position at Nationals this year, imo. Taylor/Ruth redux, with a stronger overall lineup if everyone can stay healthy.
Yeah, contenders get thin pretty quickly after Zain and Nolf. Can't tell whether guys are steering clear of that weight like they may have last year with Dieringer at 165 but I can't imagine 149 & 157 are going to be entertaining to fans that aren't Penn State fans. Some mystery at least to see where Kemerer is against Nolf but there's an even bigger gap to close at 149 and it seems like it's still Sorensen and everyone else after Zain.
165 this year is going to be baptism by fire for Cenzo. Deep and entertaining weight class even with BoJo leaving, there's IMar bumping up, Isaac Jordan staying, Realbuto cutting from 174, Logan Massa's debut, Daniel Lewis staying, Chandler Rogers cutting from 174, and Cenzo's debut. Okay, Isaac isn't all that entertaining but perhaps in this field he'll have no choice but to go big. But everyone else at top is a lot of fun to watch. Math dictates that there's going to be a very good wrestler or two off the podium at 165.
Can't wait for this year.
165 this year is going to be baptism by fire for Cenzo. Deep and entertaining weight class even with BoJo leaving, there's IMar bumping up, Isaac Jordan staying, Realbuto cutting from 174, Logan Massa's debut, Daniel Lewis staying, Chandler Rogers cutting from 174, and Cenzo's debut. Okay, Isaac isn't all that entertaining but perhaps in this field he'll have no choice but to go big. But everyone else at top is a lot of fun to watch. Math dictates that there's going to be a very good wrestler or two off the podium at 165.
Can't wait for this year.
"Most Valuable" is always a good subject for debate. When I thought of my Top 5 without looking at TOM's list, I had Zain, IMar, Nolf, Dean, Cox. I was pretty much thinking of "locks" when making the list (apparently, TOM was, too).
Then I started thinking about who was left off my list. No Hawkeyes? No Buckeyes? What? Snyder not a lock?
That made me think more about the meaning of "most valuable". Putting it in terms of "least expendable" and which team might possibly have a chance to dethrone PSU, I find myself thinking that some combo of Gilman/Clark, Tomasello/Jordan/Snyder have to be mentioned. If one of those guys gets hurt or doesn't wrestle for whatever reason, his team is toast.
So, the real question is -- just like with MVP voting in other sports -- can you have an all-round MVP from a non-contending team? If not, then slip in Gilman for IMar, Snyder for Dean, and arguably Clark for Cox on this list.
And tikk -- I'm flagging you 10 yards for the Realbuto comment.
Then I started thinking about who was left off my list. No Hawkeyes? No Buckeyes? What? Snyder not a lock?
That made me think more about the meaning of "most valuable". Putting it in terms of "least expendable" and which team might possibly have a chance to dethrone PSU, I find myself thinking that some combo of Gilman/Clark, Tomasello/Jordan/Snyder have to be mentioned. If one of those guys gets hurt or doesn't wrestle for whatever reason, his team is toast.
So, the real question is -- just like with MVP voting in other sports -- can you have an all-round MVP from a non-contending team? If not, then slip in Gilman for IMar, Snyder for Dean, and arguably Clark for Cox on this list.
And tikk -- I'm flagging you 10 yards for the Realbuto comment.
Then I started thinking about who was left off my list. No Hawkeyes? No Buckeyes? What? Snyder not a lock?
Snyder is pretty much a lock, but the guy just doesn't score enough bonus points to be included in the top 5. I don't think they were concerned about who is contending and who isn't as a team.
It's also a reason why I would have preferred to have Taylor on my team in 2013 instead of Dake. Even though Dake won in the final, Taylor outscored him in the tournament and smashed him in the regular season (in terms of team points gained).
i think snyder will marketably improve his bonus #s if he takes the mat this year. Hes no longer worried about an injury, he couldnt have more confidence in himself and dudes are scared of a killa. if hes in uniform it will be MDec or more 90%+ I think.
Are we watching the same guy? Snyder's only 3 regular decision were vs. Gwiz, Coon, and Walz (the #2, #3, and #4 placers at nationals). His next closest (and next lowest scoring) match was 16-5 vs. Dhesi, who finished 5th. This in the shaved bear/statue division.
The knock against Snyder is that he doesn't pin anybody. But "not enough bonus points" isn't true.
"Most Valuable" is always a good subject for debate. When I thought of my Top 5 without looking at TOM's list, I had Zain, IMar, Nolf, Dean, Cox. I was pretty much thinking of "locks" when making the list (apparently, TOM was, too).
Then I started thinking about who was left off my list. No Hawkeyes? No Buckeyes? What? Snyder not a lock?
That made me think more about the meaning of "most valuable". Putting it in terms of "least expendable" and which team might possibly have a chance to dethrone PSU, I find myself thinking that some combo of Gilman/Clark, Tomasello/Jordan/Snyder have to be mentioned. If one of those guys gets hurt or doesn't wrestle for whatever reason, his team is toast.
So, the real question is -- just like with MVP voting in other sports -- can you have an all-round MVP from a non-contending team? If not, then slip in Gilman for IMar, Snyder for Dean, and arguably Clark for Cox on this list.
And tikk -- I'm flagging you 10 yards for the Realbuto comment.
What, we're not taking Koll at his word yet? Fair enough. If he does go there I don't see him as a finalist and it seems just as likely he gets injured again. But he does make things fun. His match against Bo last year was Bo's coming out party.
2016 wasn't a big sample size but in his match against Jan Johnson, Snyder he looked like Nolf playing catch and release. Granted, there was a big talent disparity there but pretty much any other heavy would have passed out trying to rack up that many takedowns against anyone. I don't think many of Snyder's bonus points came from anything other than takedowns but not many guys at heavyweight are turning opponents anyway.
"Not enough" is the key concept for Snyder. He gets a lot of 4 point TF and MD. Not enough production in comparison to the guys above him. Nolf, e.g., will get 15-20 pins - that's a lot to catch up on.
I don't think anyone is saying Snyder will produce as many team points on average as Nolf (or Zain for that matter). I only said he is a lock for an individual chsmpionship and is probably the most indispensable member of TBU if they are to have any shot at the title. That makes him "more valuable" than some other guys on the list, IMO.
There's no longer a 4-pt TF. Yes, his lack of pins puts him behind Zain and Nolf ... but then again, that might be it.
Last year he didn't have enough matches to qualify for the NCAA Most Dominant list -- but he outscored Dean, Martinez, Cox, and Gilman.
http://www.ncaa.com/news/wrestling/article/2016-03-29/2016-ncaa-wrestling-awards-recap
Rank Name School Weight Avg. Team Points
1 Zain Retherford Penn St. 149 5.00
2 Alex Dieringer Oklahoma St. 165 4.709
3 Jason Nolf Penn St. 157 4.706
4 Nahshon Garrett Cornell 133 4.47
5 Nick Gwiazdowski North Carolina St. 285 4.42
6 Morgan McIntosh Penn St. 197 4.39
** Kyle Snyder (11-0, 3 dec, 2 MD, 5 TF, 1 WBF) 4.36
7 Gabriel Dean Cornell 184 4.18
8 Isaiah Martinez Illinois 157 4.16
9 J`Den Cox Missouri 197 4.13
10 Thomas Gilman Iowa 125 4.11
I stand corrected. I forgot all about them changing the TF rule (probably because I really liked it when it was implemented). I really don't like the takedown game being rewarded with 5 points.
Kyle put up 26 points in the second round, 16 points on Dhesi and 10 on Walz. Marked improvement over his scoring in his freshman year and I don't think tOSU cares about how many matches he gets in as long as he does his thing in March.
That's really the entire case for keeping Snyder out of the top 5: basing it on full season results like the author did. He'll probably be a 10-month freestyler, and only bother with folk in March and an occasional match in Jan/Feb.
Me, I'm just glad to see an era of heavies who want to dominate -- starting with Gwiz and now Snyder. That 26 pts Snyder scored in one match at nationals would've been an entire season for Jarod Trice.
Another fact about Snyder was that he came back so late last year that he faced a higher percentage of the top guys. 8 of his 11 matches were at Big Ten's and NCAA's, and he faced Coon, Walz, and Gwiz in those 11 matches. Wrestle a full season, with more opponents outside the top-10, even top-20, and I don't believe he'd be any lower than 3rd in the Most Dominant rating.
Already said...the only thing preventing this is coming back late, like last year.
Its been a big change and am glad to see it from a fan POV....maybe this will change the paradigm and get the lighter quicker guys in there.
The way I look at it, he was able to wrestle at (and win) NCAAs in 2016 without it being too much of a distraction to his training for the summer olympics. Can't imagine he'd be risking more by wrestling NCAAs in 2017. And the competition would be lesser, to boot. Why wouldn't he continue his collegiate career?
Barring catastrophe, he's young enough to complete his collegiate career in two years, earn a degree, and wait for the endorsement deals while defending his title in 2020.
And he does not need to wrestle any duals to be "most valuable", unless he is wrestling for Minnesota.
Barring catastrophe, he's young enough to complete his collegiate career in two years, earn a degree, and wait for the endorsement deals while defending his title in 2020.
And he does not need to wrestle any duals to be "most valuable", unless he is wrestling for Minnesota.
By a different definition of "most valuable" -- he who most impacts his team -- Snyder is unquestionably it.
To the extent that Ohio State has any shot whatever at the national title, that depends entirely on Snyder going in March. Tav could place at nationals, but there's a world of difference between champ with bonus vs. maybe place. Without Snyder, they won't overcome the 165-or-184 issue, so they would be smart to shirt Pletcher and Martin. That impacts the team race now thru 2021, and impacts recruiting for years to come.
Side note on Snyder...if he only wrestles late in the season as he did last year, and doesn't get 8 matches in prior to B1G's, it'll once again affect allotments. He won't earn a qualifier slot for the conference, but will surely take one when he wins B1G's (not very bold really, saw him handle Coon with ease last year, and I'm sure Medbury won't fare any better).
I wonder if tOSU will try to make sure Snyder has wrestled enough matches to earn an auto qualifier spot this year? Last year it seemed as though the decision was made later to have him wrestle. They can sprinkle him in at home duals earlier to get the matches and help with attendance. I can't wait for the season to get here. You guys have so many questions this year it is hard to predict the team race.
125- Will he be just a really good wrestler or be top 4 elite this first year?
133- Same question.
141- Same question.
149- No questions whatsoever.
157- No questions whatsoever.
165- Same question?
174- Does he rise yet another level and dominate everyone?
184- original question.
197- No idea here.
285- Same question.
I see 6 weights with the same question. If the answer to that question is top 4 in even half of these cases there is no team race. If the anwer is 2 of these guys rise PSU still wins it imo. Anything less and we have ourselves a battle at the top. I think this season has the most unknowns I have seen from the top team in so many weights. I also believe this may be Cael's best dual team in his coaching career just based on the depth of talent across the weight classes he has assembled. I'm probably most excited to watch 165,174, and 184 unfold this year.
125- Will he be just a really good wrestler or be top 4 elite this first year?
133- Same question.
141- Same question.
149- No questions whatsoever.
157- No questions whatsoever.
165- Same question?
174- Does he rise yet another level and dominate everyone?
184- original question.
197- No idea here.
285- Same question.
I see 6 weights with the same question. If the answer to that question is top 4 in even half of these cases there is no team race. If the anwer is 2 of these guys rise PSU still wins it imo. Anything less and we have ourselves a battle at the top. I think this season has the most unknowns I have seen from the top team in so many weights. I also believe this may be Cael's best dual team in his coaching career just based on the depth of talent across the weight classes he has assembled. I'm probably most excited to watch 165,174, and 184 unfold this year.
Well, if they want to be d-cks, that could be repaid in spades. This isn't football where they (and their northern cousins) are protected entities.
I guess I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to people. Tom Ryan is not an evil guy out to screw over wrestlers imo. Snyder also likes wrestling (under statement) and might just want to put his skills on display. I guess we will see.
I agree regarding Ryan. And even if he did decide to use some gamesmanship regarding Snyder, if Nevills and Stoll come back healthy, their qualification won't be affected by Snyder anyways. Ok St and Missouri could possibly be affected, but that's about it.
Yeah, I worded that clumsily. What I meant was: Snyder is clearly focusing on freestyle. He has shown he can win nationals with zero folk matches prior to B10s.
So why would Ryan pull him away from freestyle any more than he absolutely has to, just to qualify another head for the conference? There's no benefit to Snyder or to Ohio State. Only to other schools, which is not Ryan's priority.
Potentially screwing over other schools might be unintended but still be the effect.
So why would Ryan pull him away from freestyle any more than he absolutely has to, just to qualify another head for the conference? There's no benefit to Snyder or to Ohio State. Only to other schools, which is not Ryan's priority.
Potentially screwing over other schools might be unintended but still be the effect.
Potentially is right (as El-Jefe notes). I'd bet my last nickel a gold/silver standard wrestler gets pulled into The Championships with an at-large selection anyway (see Stoll in 2016).
It's snyders choice I don't think Tom is making him do anything. If you can help your team try to win a national title why not? As stated he's already shown he can be successful doing both
Not sure the point got across -- am expecting Snyder to wrestle at nationals, and at B10s. Nothing else helps the team win a national title.
I could see Ryan asking him to go at a key dual here and there anyway. But more than that for the sake of qualifying the weight? Not a good enough reason IMO.
You're a bit more clear now but I think that still comes down to Snyder wanting to do it. I'm almost sure he won't be wrestling every dual this season so he can go to some specific tournaments and camps but still wrestle just enough matches to be qualified
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